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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 05:48:05
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Douglas Bader
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Ailaros wrote:If something were both great against all targets, AND really cheap, well, we probably wouldn't see guard lists with anything BUT said unit.
And that is why Vendettas are a mandatory unit.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:02:06
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Ailaros wrote:
If something were both great against all targets, AND really cheap, well, we probably wouldn't see guard lists with anything BUT said unit.
I've seen 9 Vendettas.
And before someone whines about the "all targets" part, they can carry 2x Heavy Bolter.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:10:04
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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For really cheap, too.
Of course, can we think of ANY russ loadout that's going to be good against 9x vendetta spam AND be versatile at the same time?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:18:01
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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For that matter, can we think of ANY russ loadout that will be good against 9x vendetta spam?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:31:24
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There are great generalist units to be had besides vendettas if trying to damage av14 is off the table. Hydras are weaker but still have good shot count and twin linked when no flyers are around. The aegis 2+ cover save supported by spammed auto cannon teams are passable as well, as when firing at flyers the go to ground penalty is diminished. But I digress, vendettas are still the best choice around, and very few builds can deal with that many. For Russes to take them on, you would need to hide your rear and camp behind an aegis line with camo nets. You would probably have an easier time beating that force by choking the board so full of models that they can't ever come on the board, or by killing whatever is on the table turn 1 by some means so the vendettas never get to play
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:32:12
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice
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Ailaros wrote:If only my opponents would ever go into hover mode. I would LOVE to get some non-snap-shot lascannon hits on them.
Oh, wait...
Not the point, the point is hover mode IS an option that makes the vendetta more maneuverable. That and the ability to leave combat space means it will always be able to out pace a Russ. Good for your crappy PIS las canon spam, that's what the rest of your opponents army is for. If your dedicating your heavy section and your troops to deal with a couple cheap vendettas then you already lost.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:45:17
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Battleship Captain
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Matt.Kingsley wrote:For that matter, can we think of ANY russ loadout that will be good against 9x vendetta spam?
18 Leman Russ Annihilators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Exterminators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Vanquishers with Coaxial Stubber, Hull Lascannon, and Sponson Multimelta.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:45:56
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Ailaros wrote:For really cheap, too.
Of course, can we think of ANY russ loadout that's going to be good against 9x vendetta spam AND be versatile at the same time?
Yes, the ensponsoned Eradicators.
9 Vendettas don't bother me. It's pretty easy to table them in the 2 turns before anything shows up.
2 Vendettas are much more useful.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:51:11
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Battleship Captain
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DarknessEternal wrote: Ailaros wrote:For really cheap, too.
Of course, can we think of ANY russ loadout that's going to be good against 9x vendetta spam AND be versatile at the same time?
Yes, the ensponsoned Eradicators.
9 Vendettas don't bother me. It's pretty easy to table them in the 2 turns before anything shows up.
2 Vendettas are much more useful.
With 9 vendettas, something is all but guaranteed to show up the second turn.
And no good player running 9 vendettas will be table-able. Its as simple as hiding out of LoS for a turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:51:35
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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TheCaptain wrote: Matt.Kingsley wrote:For that matter, can we think of ANY russ loadout that will be good against 9x vendetta spam?
18 Leman Russ Annihilators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Exterminators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Vanquishers with Coaxial Stubber, Hull Lascannon, and Sponson Multimelta.
Hehe... good point.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:52:24
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Battleship Captain
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Matt.Kingsley wrote: TheCaptain wrote: Matt.Kingsley wrote:For that matter, can we think of ANY russ loadout that will be good against 9x vendetta spam?
18 Leman Russ Annihilators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Exterminators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Vanquishers with Coaxial Stubber, Hull Lascannon, and Sponson Multimelta.
Hehe... good point.
I'm a well of brilliance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 06:53:56
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Yes. Yes you are.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 14:02:08
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The LR with battle cannon is versatile.
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5115 points
2000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 16:24:50
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Battleship Captain
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Tomten, buddy. I've noticed with several of your posts; you usually just make a short post with a statement and no justification.
At dakka, we like explanations and math.
Because any advice here may lead to someone buying new models.
If I start a thread saying "What is IG's best tank?"
and you say " LR with battle cannon" I'm not going to feel very comfortable buying an LR with battle cannon, because I have no idea why.
You need to explain your posts. Give reasoning why, and maybe put some math behind it as proof. It will make your posts much more useful.
-TheCaptain
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/19 16:28:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 16:35:39
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Either the LRBT or the Executioner with full plasma sponsons. LRBT is decent against almost anything but Termis, cover abuse infantry, fliers, and MC. Plasmastorm Exectuioner is good against anything not AV 14/fliers and cover abuse infantry. The sheer weight of fire gives it enough wounds to handle MC's (not to mention it's got an easier time hitting them) and spaced out elite units like termi squads, and at the same time makes it a threat to hordes. The fact that templates hit at full strength now makes it a threat to parking lots, as it'll strip hullpoints like crazy against a packed in line. The AP also gives you a 1/3 explosion chance (1/2 if open topped) meaning against things like rhinos you even have a chance to kill it outright. With the LRBT, I have run into situations where its useless. I've NEVER ran into a situation where my executioners couldn't kill something redonculously well in the opponent's army.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/19 16:36:11
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 17:19:06
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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TheCaptain wrote:
Tomten, buddy. I've noticed with several of your posts; you usually just make a short post with a statement and no justification.
At dakka, we like explanations and math.
Because any advice here may lead to someone buying new models.
If I start a thread saying "What is IG's best tank?"
and you say " LR with battle cannon" I'm not going to feel very comfortable buying an LR with battle cannon, because I have no idea why.
You need to explain your posts. Give reasoning why, and maybe put some math behind it as proof. It will make your posts much more useful.
-TheCaptain
Thank you for the info. Automatically Appended Next Post: I will do that from now on.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/19 17:19:35
5115 points
2000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 19:11:23
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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I'm not good at math. I rely on you guys to do all that for me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 19:40:40
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Given the nerf on lumbering behemoth, the answer to this is almost certainly some variant with a non-ordnance weapon, right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 19:46:03
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Battleship Captain
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Martel732 wrote:Given the nerf on lumbering behemoth, the answer to this is almost certainly some variant with a non-ordnance weapon, right?
Well, the good answer is "Guard don't "do" versatility."
Guard use
3 of Unit X that do job A
4 of Unit Y that do job B
2 of Unit Z that do job C
and
2 of Unit V that sing, dance, and do two things pretty good.
Basic formula for a guard list.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/19 19:46:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 20:32:37
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Martel732 wrote:Given the nerf on lumbering behemoth, the answer to this is almost certainly some variant with a non-ordnance weapon, right?
Only if you like sponsons. If you're like me, and ran basic Russes with no upgrades commonly, then the nerf really didn't affect them. We only lost our heavy bolter, and not even completely because it still protects from Weapon Destroyed and can snap-fire.
I never fired their heavy bolters in 5th anyways because of wound allocation shennanigans. So no real loss honestly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 20:47:38
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Ah, okay. I guess snap firing is less of a loss for the Guard than the Spess Mahreens
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 20:49:58
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Martel732 wrote:Ah, okay. I guess snap firing is less of a loss for the Guard than the Spess Mahreens 
That and it's a single heavy bolter - commonly agreed to be one of the most useless weapons ever period (since 4th iirc).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 21:01:06
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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1st Lieutenant
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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Simple answer is we don't really do "versatility"
The Guard rely on multiple redundant specialized units to get a job done. The unit has one purpose, and if it dies another takes it spot and it does the job. Once the job is over, it can provide support for other un-done jobs.
We CAN have versatile units, but thanks to us being only Guardsmen and not Space Marines the unit will be pretty OK at things but not great at anything.
Here is what I do when I play around with lists:
1: List out all the jobs you need to take care of in your meta (or all if you want to), like Heavy Armor killing, TeQ killing, Horde killing, etc.
2: Create 2-3 units to cover each section, and specialize them for that section (obviously, points may restrict what you do here so you may have to bring priorities or sacrifices)
3: Any gaps not covered, or not covered well enough, you can try to patch up with a few generalist units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 21:51:51
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Is the demolisher less competitive thanthe LRBT? I mean who doesnt like a S10 AP2 large blast?
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5115 points
2000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/19 22:19:48
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Honored Helliarch on Hypex
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Unit1126PLL wrote:Martel732 wrote:Ah, okay. I guess snap firing is less of a loss for the Guard than the Spess Mahreens 
That and it's a single heavy bolter - commonly agreed to be one of the most useless weapons ever period (since 4th iirc).
To be fair, there are a few platforms that can do heavy bolters well. Long fangs can pick up five BS4 heavy bolters for a mere 115 points in their long fang squads, though missile launchers are certainly more common. I'm not precisely sure why Long Fangs get a 5 ppm discount on such weird weapons, but it does add a bit of inter-codex variety to the devastator options (even if every devastator squad in that codex seems to be bringing the same weapon).
Of course, if you're really itching for S5 firepower, you can't do much better than the Imperial Armour Vulture (which brings a twin-linked punisher gatling cannon on a BS3 strafing run vector dancing AV12-12-10 flier.) The Leman Russ Punisher promises twenty shots with a complimentary heavy bolter. The vulture gets those shots to the target accurately, for 20% fewer points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/20 00:43:54
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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TheCaptain wrote:Well, the good answer is "Guard don't "do" versatility."
And normally I'd agree with that, but I don't think this rule is actually that applicable to russes. Russes aren't cheap, and they have actually GOOD mixable weapons options.
MrMoustaffa wrote:LRBT is decent against almost anything but Termis, cover abuse infantry, fliers, and MC.
With the LRBT, I have run into situations where its useless.
And vehicles.
Anyways, I think the bottom line is telling, and a good way to judge versatility, actually. Being good at something is great, but if the thing you're good at causes you to have a unit that does basically nothing for half of your games, then you've got a problem. I mean, it's the main reason I eventually ditched ogryn. I want something that is reasonably useful or better every game, rather than something that alternates between beatface and pine riding depending on the circumstances.
Thankfully, due to russ hull weapon options, you're much less likely to fall into that trap.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/20 00:47:16
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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They're actually not too bad against vehicles. I've often tossed shots at fire support vehicles since I know with ordnance, odds are I'll get a pen, and that I'll probably screw that vehicle's ability to shoot well.
But that being said, I'd much much MUCH rather shoot something else.
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'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/20 11:30:46
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Would you take en Executioner over a LRBT? I mean the Executioner can put out 5 blast with AP2 but its 36 inch range while the LRBT has a range of 72 and can hurt vehicles very well and it kill MEQs.
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5115 points
2000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/20 11:42:20
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Honored Helliarch on Hypex
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If I didn't have to cripple my list elsewhere to get the points, I certainly would. A Guardsman with appropriate devotion does not fear death. If Executioners don't exemplify this, I don't know what does.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/20 11:44:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/20 16:01:20
Subject: Which is the most versatile LRBT version?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Tomten wrote:Would you take en Executioner over a LRBT? I mean the Executioner can put out 5 blast with AP2 but its 36 inch range while the LRBT has a range of 72 and can hurt vehicles very well and it kill MEQs.
Not in my Armored Battlegroup. I can't spare the ~100 points more that the Executioner costs.
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