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Only 80 points (53%) more, but fair enough.

Corollax wrote:
Only 80 points (53%) more, but fair enough.

Its 80 points that you spend on something else.

Isn't that enough for a whole HWS with lascannons?

 Tomten wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Only 80 points (53%) more, but fair enough.

Its 80 points that you spend on something else.

including 1/2 of another leman russ with armored track guards, or TWO plasma cannon sponsons for vanquishers / annihilators / exterminators / eradicators / conquerors.

Alot of great points made in this thread. I'd just like to throw this out...the LR is a good chassis but, as with all guard units, really doesn't DO versatile.

The "Ordnance" turrets make the sponsons almost pointless. And it is the sponsons that create any thing remotely resembling versatility. So, if you are going to pick any of the LR chassis I think you need to look at NON-Ordinance turret russ's.

For versatility i'd go for the exterminator with las in the hull and probably plasma sponsons... multi s7 shots from the turret, a couple of s7 ap 2 blasts and a dedicated s9 AT shot..also, the s7 is not bad at killing light vehicles.

ender502

i dont like the exterminator because its just more Autocannon shots that you alredy have plenty of.

 Tomten wrote:
i dont like the exterminator because its just more Autocannon shots that you alredy have plenty of.

Well armored battlegroups don't tend to have as many autocannons as the infantry armies. Although I agree, largely. I'd rather have another regular Russ.

Is the vanquisher a good Anti-tank tank. Its expensive and its oneshot per turn with BS3. you can take pask but hes expensive too.

 Tomten wrote:
Is the vanquisher a good Anti-tank tank. Its expensive and its oneshot per turn with BS3. you can take pask but hes expensive too.

The Vanquisher is ridiculously bad unless you're taking it as the HQ in an armored battlegroup.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
Is the vanquisher a good Anti-tank tank. Its expensive and its oneshot per turn with BS3. you can take pask but hes expensive too.

The Vanquisher is ridiculously bad unless you're taking it as the HQ in an armored battlegroup.

Then it goes to the other end of the scale and becomes awesome. Beast hunter shells are barrels of fun, especially when you tell people that they can one hit kill a tervigon.

Exterminators are better than infantry based ACs, as they can move with no loss of potential. This makes it easier to get side shots.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
Is the vanquisher a good Anti-tank tank. Its expensive and its oneshot per turn with BS3. you can take pask but hes expensive too.

The Vanquisher is ridiculously bad unless you're taking it as the HQ in an armored battlegroup.

Then it goes to the other end of the scale and becomes awesome. Beast hunter shells are barrels of fun, especially when you tell people that they can one hit kill a tervigon.

Exterminators are better than infantry based ACs, as they can move with no loss of potential. This makes it easier to get side shots.

This is true, both about the Vanquisher and the Exterminator. The Exterminator also is a synchronized twin-linked autocannon, so you get 20pts worth of autocannon shots AND twin link them.

It's roughly like having three or even four squads with autocannons.

Whats an armoured battlegroup?

Yeah, normal Vanquishers are awful, they're really bad at what they do for what they cost.

Armored Battlegroup Vanquishers taken as HQ units are great however, being BS4 and able to take a coaxial heavy Stubber to allow the main gun rerolls, and the aforementioned Beast Hunter shells add a whole new dimension of usefulness, especially as they're a Blast weapon and can give the Vanq some greater anti-infantry capability.

That said, they're not cheap either, but well worth it with that kit.

I also have really been liking the LC/2xHB Exterminators with Armored Battlegroups, the AB I'm building will have 4 of them as Troops. Setup like that they make very good generalists that can engage infantry, MC's and medium vehicles effectively and still at least threaten to hurt heavy tanks and death stars.

 Tomten wrote:
Whats an armoured battlegroup?

It's an army list from Forgeworld's Imperial Armour Volume 1 that allows one to play an Imperial Guard tank army, with Leman Russ tanks as Troops/HQ/Elites, and infantry are relatively limited.

 Tomten wrote:
Whats an armoured battlegroup?

An Imperial Tank Company, the list for which can be found in Imperial Armor Vol. 1, Second Edition. It includes things such as upgrades unique to tank companies (artificer hulls, armored track guards, anti-grenade mesh, etc), orders for tank companies (Concentrated Fire, Evasive Driving, Full Speed Ahead) and specialized ammunition issued to the higher echelons of Imperial armored units (Beast Hunter shells, infernus shells, augur shells, etc).

I will check that up.

Corollax wrote:

The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.

I disagree. If you specialize to make it a dakka dakka dakka machine, HHB and HB sponsons aren't that bad, as are MM sponsons if you want to have some anti-tank. It's a love or hate creature, and mostly not that versatile, and you're right, it's quite poor against most flyers.

My vote would go to either the LRBT (anything except TEQ, flyers and fellow AV14's and probably 13's, but limited volume of fire) or the Exterminator for hitting reliability (no scatter, pretty much guaranteed three S7 hits plus sponsons/hull weapons every turn, but poor against MEQ or better armor). Note that this doesn't make either the "best" Russ-just being more versatile doesn't make them stronger on the whole. The Demolisher gets close, but loses due to short range IMO. It just can't respond to threats fast enough to make it "versatile".

For me who face almost noting but Orks, Nids and a few DE noting beats the bog standard battle cannon and HB sponsons and hull mounted HB:

Hedkrakka wrote:

Corollax wrote:

The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.

I disagree. If you specialize to make it a dakka dakka dakka machine, HHB and HB sponsons aren't that bad, as are MM sponsons if you want to have some anti-tank. It's a love or hate creature, and mostly not that versatile, and you're right, it's quite poor against most flyers.

My vote would go to either the LRBT (anything except TEQ, flyers and fellow AV14's and probably 13's, but limited volume of fire) or the Exterminator for hitting reliability (no scatter, pretty much guaranteed three S7 hits plus sponsons/hull weapons every turn, but poor against MEQ or better armor). Note that this doesn't make either the "best" Russ-just being more versatile doesn't make them stronger on the whole. The Demolisher gets close, but loses due to short range IMO. It just can't respond to threats fast enough to make it "versatile".

Has anyone actually run the math on the 3 HB, Punisher Leman Russ vs. MEQ?

Because even the TL, BS4 Vulture Punishers will only kill 3.8ish MEQ, plus the heavy bolter.

I like Ailaros' suggestion on the 1st page.

But I do recommend a pair standard 150pt LRBT's. Take Camo and put them behind a Defense Line if you want.

Besides that I use Exterminators w/ Multi Melta sponsons, cheaper than Ailaros' Punisher and does just about the same with no movement penalty like the standard one.

Demolishers have too short range.
Vanquishers are too single minded for me, other things do their job cheaper.
Eradicators suffer from AP4 but I like them.
Punishers are too expensive for me.
Executioners are too expensive and are a massive target.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:

Corollax wrote:

The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.

I disagree. If you specialize to make it a dakka dakka dakka machine, HHB and HB sponsons aren't that bad, as are MM sponsons if you want to have some anti-tank. It's a love or hate creature, and mostly not that versatile, and you're right, it's quite poor against most flyers.

My vote would go to either the LRBT (anything except TEQ, flyers and fellow AV14's and probably 13's, but limited volume of fire) or the Exterminator for hitting reliability (no scatter, pretty much guaranteed three S7 hits plus sponsons/hull weapons every turn, but poor against MEQ or better armor). Note that this doesn't make either the "best" Russ-just being more versatile doesn't make them stronger on the whole. The Demolisher gets close, but loses due to short range IMO. It just can't respond to threats fast enough to make it "versatile".

Has anyone actually run the math on the 3 HB, Punisher Leman Russ vs. MEQ?

Because even the TL, BS4 Vulture Punishers will only kill 3.8ish MEQ, plus the heavy bolter.

I use vanilla 40K, so I can't comment on the Vulture. I'm not much of a statistics guy either, but I'll try the math.

20 S5 AP- shots + 9 S5 AP4 shots.

Averages, without Pask:
10 S5 AP- hits + 4.5 S5 AP4 hits

vs. T4, 3+ (MEQ)
9.7 wounds
3.22 unsaved wounds

vs. T3, 5+ (GEQ)
12.1 wounds (8.33 AP-, 3.75 AP4)
9.3 unsaved wounds

vs. T4, 2+ (TEQ)
9.7 wounds
1.6 unsaved wounds

With Pask:
13.67 S5 AP- hits, 6 S5 AP4 hits

vs. T4, 3+ (MEQ)
13.11 wounds
4.37 unsaved wounds

vs. T3, 5+ (GEQ)
16.39 wounds (11.39 AP-, 5 AP4)
12.59 unsaved wounds

vs. T4, 2+ (TEQ)
13.11 wounds
2.19 unsaved wounds

Doesn't look too bad IMO. Yes, sucks against vehicles (well, may glance AV10 and 11 to death, maybe) and most MCs, but against all infantry that dare get into range that's one good burst of fire. It's a pity that the range and mobility are underwhelming. Pask provides a boost, but I'm not sure it's enough to take him.

I think that the medusa does e better job than the Demolisher because it has a longer range and can hide behind buildings and such.

The Medusa can hide behind buildings? How? It's not a Barrage weapon IIRC. Agree on the long range, but the survivability sucks. If you're confident that the first shot will count big time, yeah, Medusae are better, but they rarely get a second shot off in my experience. Works best in an AV12 spam list IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually want to add to the Punisher math a bit, adding popular high toughness setups and light vehicles. T6 2+ or T7+ isn't included as the tank obviously sucks against them.

Without Pask

vs. T5, 4+ (Ork bikers)
7.25 wounds
3.63 unsaved wounds

vs. T6, 3+ (Carnifex, Tervigon, Trygon etc.)
4.83 wounds
1.61 unsaved wounds

vs. T5, 3+, FnP (Plague Marines)
7.25 wounds
1.61 unsaved wounds

vs. AV10
14.5 hits
2.41 glances
2.41 pens

vs. AV11
14.5 hits
2.41 glances

With Pask

vs. T5, 4+ (Ork bikers)
9.84 wounds
4.92 unsaved wounds

vs. T6, 3+ (Carnifex, Tervigon, Trygon etc.)
6.56 wounds
2.19 unsaved wounds

vs. T5, 3+, FnP (Plague Marines)
9.84 wounds
2.19 unsaved wounds

vs. AV10 (stationary)
19.67 hits
3.28 glances
6.56 pens

vs. AV11 (stationary) or AV10 (moving)
19.67 hits
3.28 glances
3.28 pens

vs. AV12 (stationary) or AV11 (moving)
19.67 hits
3.28 glances


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doesn't look as good anymore. In fact, the older stuff didn't look too good either. Silly me.

I thought so but it was not the case.

 ender502 wrote:
Alot of great points made in this thread. I'd just like to throw this out...the LR is a good chassis but, as with all guard units, really doesn't DO versatile.

The "Ordnance" turrets make the sponsons almost pointless. And it is the sponsons that create any thing remotely resembling versatility. So, if you are going to pick any of the LR chassis I think you need to look at NON-Ordinance turret russ's.

For versatility i'd go for the exterminator with las in the hull and probably plasma sponsons... multi s7 shots from the turret, a couple of s7 ap 2 blasts and a dedicated s9 AT shot..also, the s7 is not bad at killing light vehicles.

ender502

This.
4 Twin-Linked S7 shots at good range gives you a real chance against flyers.
2 Plasma Cannons helps with MEQ/TEQ and hordes.
Hull Lascannon Gives you a shot at AV14.
Expensive (205), but not stupidly so.

Or Forge World:
Russ Annihilator, hull lascannon and sponson plasma cannons (185).
twin-lascannon and lascannon for hoping to get lucky on anti-flyer, and 2 plasma cannons and 2 lascannon shots for everyone else.

-Matt

did you only count the punisher cannon or that + the 3 heavy bolters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No not really the 4 TL autocannon shots are not that great against fliers. players here just have AV 12 fliers and S7 is not so good vs AV 12

 Tomten wrote:
did you only count the punisher cannon or that + the 3 heavy bolters?

The Punisher Gattling Cannon and three HB are all included, i.e. an idealized setup where all guns get to fire.

Ok it makes much more sense to me.

Hedkrakka wrote:
Agree on the long range, but the survivability sucks. If you're confident that the first shot will count big time, yeah, Medusae are better, but they rarely get a second shot off in my experience. Works best in an AV12 spam list IMO.

The first shot of the game is the most important, and the Medusa is best at getting that first shot. The Demolisher is probably better in the long run with AV 14 keeping it alive, but it's very vulnerable to being slow to get into the fight and ending up too little, too late.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
4 Twin-Linked S7 shots at good range gives you a real chance against flyers.

Not really. It's a "chance" in that you get to roll dice, but it's a terrible substitute for real AA weapons.

2 Plasma Cannons helps with MEQ/TEQ and hordes.

Not very much. With only two 3" blasts it's too easy to space out and minimize the hits, and in many situations you only get to fire one sponson because of firing arc issues. The Executioner works because it has so many shots that even one hit per shot is decent, and a 360* turret to ensure that it can always get to fire most of its shots.

Hull Lascannon Gives you a shot at AV14.

A very, very bad shot. A single LC is barely better than nothing against AV 14.


Anyway, this just shows the problem with how most people think of "versatility".

Fake versatility is using a bunch of different weapons that have nothing in common. For example, a squad with a sniper rifle, a melta gun, and a grenade launcher. The result is a unit that is mediocre at best against lots of things (since you're always wasting most of the weapons), and no matter what you do with it you're going to be disappointed.

Real versatility is using a unified set of weapons that is awesome against multiple target types. For example, a squad with three plasma guns (MEQs, MCs, light/medium vehicles) or a Vulture with punisher cannons (hordes, light vehicles, MEQs without FNP). The result is a unit that is effective against a slightly narrower range of targets, but is good against all of them.


Lesson here: don't be fooled by fake "versatility". Focus your setups and do the job right.

LRBT i versatile, it can kill MEQs, TEQs and vehicles

Okay, i keep seeing that but I have no idea what it means. What is TEQ?