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 Valhalla130 wrote:
Okay, i keep seeing that but I have no idea what it means. What is TEQ?

Terminator equivalent: a T4/2+ infantry model.

 Tomten wrote:
LRBT i versatile, it can kill MEQs, TEQs and vehicles

Please, Tomten, I mean this nicely, but please write more than one vague, tangential sentence in your posts. It's like trying to follow a distracted mosquito.

 Peregrine wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
Agree on the long range, but the survivability sucks. If you're confident that the first shot will count big time, yeah, Medusae are better, but they rarely get a second shot off in my experience. Works best in an AV12 spam list IMO.

The first shot of the game is the most important, and the Medusa is best at getting that first shot. The Demolisher is probably better in the long run with AV 14 keeping it alive, but it's very vulnerable to being slow to get into the fight and ending up too little, too late.

True, but due to the survivability issues, I think one should probably take no more than one unit for most games, unless you're playing AV12 spam and can saturate the board with them and others, which isn't that popular these days (I think it's still effective though). It can also become problematic when the opponent steals the initiative (if you deploy the Medusae in the open in LOS of the juiciest targets and they get free shots at them), although that doesn't happen too often.

dont know meant GEQs.

 Tomten wrote:
dont know meant GEQs.

Umm, sorry, but I don't get what you mean in this comment. It's much easier for everyone if you refer to older posts using the quote function.

Hedkrakka wrote:
True, but due to the survivability issues, I think one should probably take no more than one unit for most games, unless you're playing AV12 spam and can saturate the board with them and others, which isn't that popular these days (I think it's still effective though).

Fortunately I do play AV 12 spam, everything is a Chimera or better except for the flyers.

It can also become problematic when the opponent steals the initiative (if you deploy the Medusae in the open in LOS of the juiciest targets and they get free shots at them), although that doesn't happen too often.

It's not too much of a problem. You've got a 42" threat range (vs 30" for the Demolisher), so I've found that usually you can hide the Medusas behind cover and still get a shot on turn 1. It's even easier now that you only need to hide 25% of the model, even small terrain pieces can hide one, and a single Chimera can hide two. And night fighting really helps, the extra cover bonus keeps the Medusas alive, while Chimera searchlights make sure the Medusas aren't hurt by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hedkrakka wrote:
Umm, sorry, but I don't get what you mean in this comment. It's much easier for everyone if you refer to older posts using the quote function.

What he meant was "I didn't mean to say TEQs in my previous post, it was supposed to be GEQs. I really have no idea what I'm talking about, have nothing constructive to offer, and should probably leave this thread and stop bothering everyone."

 Peregrine wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
True, but due to the survivability issues, I think one should probably take no more than one unit for most games, unless you're playing AV12 spam and can saturate the board with them and others, which isn't that popular these days (I think it's still effective though).

Fortunately I do play AV 12 spam, everything is a Chimera or better except for the flyers.

It can also become problematic when the opponent steals the initiative (if you deploy the Medusae in the open in LOS of the juiciest targets and they get free shots at them), although that doesn't happen too often.

It's not too much of a problem. You've got a 42" threat range (vs 30" for the Demolisher), so I've found that usually you can hide the Medusas behind cover and still get a shot on turn 1. It's even easier now that you only need to hide 25% of the model, even small terrain pieces can hide one, and a single Chimera can hide two. And night fighting really helps, the extra cover bonus keeps the Medusas alive, while Chimera searchlights make sure the Medusas aren't hurt by it.

You can have a 52 threat range if you upgrade it.

 Peregrine wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
True, but due to the survivability issues, I think one should probably take no more than one unit for most games, unless you're playing AV12 spam and can saturate the board with them and others, which isn't that popular these days (I think it's still effective though).

Fortunately I do play AV 12 spam, everything is a Chimera or better except for the flyers.

It can also become problematic when the opponent steals the initiative (if you deploy the Medusae in the open in LOS of the juiciest targets and they get free shots at them), although that doesn't happen too often.

It's not too much of a problem. You've got a 42" threat range (vs 30" for the Demolisher), so I've found that usually you can hide the Medusas behind cover and still get a shot on turn 1. It's even easier now that you only need to hide 25% of the model, even small terrain pieces can hide one, and a single Chimera can hide two. And night fighting really helps, the extra cover bonus keeps the Medusas alive, while Chimera searchlights make sure the Medusas aren't hurt by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hedkrakka wrote:
Umm, sorry, but I don't get what you mean in this comment. It's much easier for everyone if you refer to older posts using the quote function.

What he meant was "I didn't mean to say TEQs in my previous post, it was supposed to be GEQs. I really have no idea what I'm talking about, have nothing constructive to offer, and should probably leave this thread and stop bothering everyone."

Yeah, you won't get any argument from me there. Medusae are pure gold in AV12 spam, and perform much better than the Demolisher in such a list. About stealing the initiative, I was concerned about exposing side armor while moving out from behind cover, but considering that you get the first shot off anyway, it probably won't matter.

mög


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You offended me.

Corollax wrote:The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.

There is a lot that's missing from this statement.

Firstly, you have to ally space wolves, which you either may not want to do or may not have the models for. Plus, you can't just take devs, you have to take devs AND an HQ AND some troops. The ally tax is going to make this loadout rather expensive.

Secondly, 4 HB longfangs put down fewer hits than a punisher (8 to 11.5), and don't have the option to spend only 20 more points for a pair more heavy bolters. Comparing the longfangs to a bolter boat punisher, you're now looking at 8 hits against 14.5. Put another way, you're getting close to only having 2/3ds as many hits. The heavy bolters still have range (though only 6" more - remember, the russ can move and fire at full strength, unlike long fangs), and still have the Ap, but you've got to reach pretty far to say that the devs have better killing power.

Thirdly, it is much, much, MUCH easier to kill 5 dudes in power armor than a leman russ. Much. Furthermore, a russ will tend to still be able to fire at full effectiveness until it dies, whereas the long fangs start doing less and less damage as the models carrying the heavy bolters start to go down, meaning that you can make them moot without needing to actually wipe the squad. And that's to say nothing about secondary things like morale.

Fourthly, you can concentrate a lot more killing power onto a russ than on to longfangs. With a 4x HB dev squad, you're looking at 8 HB hits, but a russ can be upgraded to do the 11.5 with its basic weapons and then also shoot at stuff with multimeltas or plasma cannons.

Simply put, the punisher can put out a lot more dakka including of better quality, and it does it with better force concentration on a much more durable carrier, and is more simple, not requiring allies.

And you can take up to 9 of them, unlike your one longfang squad.

I'll never ally in Space Wolves. I'm morally opposed to it. lol

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I'll never ally in Space Wolves. I'm morally opposed to it. lol

But they're super good.

But I don't like wolves.

I know they're super good. But they're also one of those things that we've been talking about in the cheesy/beardy thread.

 Ailaros wrote:
Secondly, 4 HB longfangs put down fewer hits than a punisher (8 to 11.5), and don't have the option to spend only 20 more points for a pair more heavy bolters. Comparing the longfangs to a bolter boat punisher, you're now looking at 8 hits against 14.5. Put another way, you're getting close to only having 2/3ds as many hits. The heavy bolters still have range (though only 6" more - remember, the russ can move and fire at full strength, unlike long fangs), and still have the Ap, but you've got to reach pretty far to say that the devs have better killing power.

Why are we comparing 4 HBs in a unit that can take 5 of them?

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, you have to ally space wolves, which you either may not want to do or may not have the models for. Plus, you can't just take devs, you have to take devs AND an HQ AND some troops. The ally tax is going to make this loadout rather expensive.

Rune Priests are the single best way to get a good blob in 6th edition. If you're intending to run a blob list, you should already be taking these allies. And grey hunters are regarded as some of the best troops available in 6th edition. If these units are a tax, they're a luxury tax, because they are both fantastic.

 Ailaros wrote:
Secondly, 4 HB longfangs put down fewer hits than a punisher (8 to 11.5), and don't have the option to spend only 20 more points for a pair more heavy bolters.

Actually, you do, because Long Fangs come in packs of 1 squad leader and up to 5 long fangs. Which gives 10 hits, precisely what the Punisher's main turret provides. Except at AP4. Which is what I said.

 Ailaros wrote:
Comparing the longfangs to a bolter boat punisher, you're now looking at 8 hits against 14.5. Put another way, you're getting close to only having 2/3ds as many hits. The heavy bolters still have range (though only 6" more - remember, the russ can move and fire at full strength, unlike long fangs), and still have the Ap, but you've got to reach pretty far to say that the devs have better killing power.

Let me say this again: Long fangs get TEN hits. There are five heavy bolters present. Five. Try to look the information up before you post, seriously. That said, you're going to pay 115 points for Long Fangs vs. 200 for a Punisher. Is it worth paying 74% more to get 45% more hits, especially when half those hits don't even carry an AP value?

 Ailaros wrote:
Thirdly, it is much, much, MUCH easier to kill 5 dudes in power armor than a leman russ. Much. Furthermore, a russ will tend to still be able to fire at full effectiveness until it dies, whereas the long fangs start doing less and less damage as the models carrying the heavy bolters start to go down, meaning that you can make them moot without needing to actually wipe the squad. And that's to say nothing about secondary things like morale.

Six dudes. Six dudes in power armor. Please, please look this stuff up before you post. And the Russ only gets to keep firing at full effectiveness if you ignore things like shaken, stun, and weapon destroyed results. Nevermind its unfortunate allergy to melta.

 Ailaros wrote:
Fourthly, you can concentrate a lot more killing power onto a russ than on to longfangs. With a 4x HB dev squad, you're looking at 8 HB hits, but a russ can be upgraded to do the 11.5 with its basic weapons and then also shoot at stuff with multimeltas or plasma cannons.

Which is a lousy investment and exactly the kind of "fake" versatility that Peregrine was talking about earlier. Don't mix weapon types. Bring quality armaments that can get good results against a variety of targets, rather than sticking a multi-melta on a heavy-bolter platform (which is exactly what you suggested).

 Ailaros wrote:
Simply put, the punisher can put out a lot more dakka including of better quality, and it does it with better force concentration on a much more durable carrier, and is more simple, not requiring allies.

It gets more dakka into the air, I'll give it that...but I suppose if that's what you were interested in, you'd go back to Orks.

I don't.

Let's refresh, then. My previous statement should read "Simply put, the punisher can put out a more dakka including of better quality, and it does it with better force concentration on a much more durable carrier, and is more simple, not requiring allies."

Fixed.

Also, with the allies thing, what if I don't want to ally wolves? what if I'm already allying grey knights or something? Saying that the punisher is bad because a very contingent other choice exists that's not even better seems strange to me.

 Ailaros wrote:
Simply put, the punisher can put out a more dakka including of better quality

Except it doesn't.

LR Punisher with max HBs: 14.5 hits (some of them AP -) for 200 points, or 13.8 points per STR 5 hit.

Long Fangs with max HBs: 10 hits (all of them AP 4) for 115 points, or 11.5 points per STR 5 hit.

So yes, the LR Punisher puts out more total hits, but only by paying 20% more per hit. And of course if AP 4 is relevant or you're unable to get both sponsons in arc (a common problem) the Punisher is even worse.

Also, with the allies thing, what if I don't want to ally wolves? what if I'm already allying grey knights or something? Saying that the punisher is bad because a very contingent other choice exists that's not even better seems strange to me.

The point is that when you compare the LR Punisher to units that are actually good at providing STR 5 fire (HB Long Fangs, Vultures) the LR Punisher isn't very impressive.

The problem is that Long Fangs are not the only other choice. Forgeworld is a very real element of 40k for a good number of people, and the degree to which the Vulture outclasses the Punisher is frankly staggering. There's more than one alternative -- and at 200 points, the Punisher gives you a lot of room to maneuver in selecting these choices.

Edit: And Peregrine beats me to the punch, saying it more quickly and with more supporting evidence. C'est la vie.

I don't think I would compare SM and IG in any way. It's like apples and oranges. Besides, the designers have said before that they don't equate point costs between different armies, just within that one army. So comparing a Vulture and Punisher would work, comparing a Punisher and Long Fangs would not.

Peregrine wrote:So yes, the LR Punisher puts out more total hits, but only by paying 20% more per hit.

Until you consider the ally tax.

Were you able to just straight-up take longfangs in the guard codex, it would be a different story, but it isn't. You have to spend a lot more to get 5 heavy bolter toting long fangs in your list than you do to take a punisher.

And with a punisher, you're not capped at taking only one. And you can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platorm that doesn't require the complication of allies.

Peregrine wrote:The point is that when you compare the LR Punisher to units that are actually good at providing STR 5 fire (HB Long Fangs, Vultures) the LR Punisher isn't very impressive.

But it's super contingent. Not everybody is taking space wolves allies, whereas any guard player has access to a punisher.

Plus, with space wolves, you can only ever bring one, and you can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platform with the punisher.

 Ailaros wrote:
Until you consider the ally tax.

Were you able to just straight-up take longfangs in the guard codex, it would be a different story, but it isn't. You have to spend a lot more to get 5 heavy bolter toting long fangs in your list than you do to take a punisher.

It's only a "tax" if you don't want the units you're forced to take. A rune priest by itself is reason to take SW allies, and the troops are a very solid unit that you're happy to have.

And with a punisher, you're not capped at taking only one. And you can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platorm that doesn't require the complication of allies.

But, as has already been pointed out before, do you really WANT more than one unit with such a narrow role?

(And even if you do, I'd rather take one LR Punisher and a couple Vultures and save my heavy support slots for Medusas/Demolishers/etc.)

But it's super contingent. Not everybody is taking space wolves allies, whereas any guard player has access to a punisher.

"It's the best you've got" isn't a very compelling argument. If you can't do better than the LR Punisher (but you can, with Vultures) then maybe it's time to admit that you just aren't going to have mass STR 5 shooting in your army.

Plus, with space wolves, you can only ever bring one, and you can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platform with the punisher.

We've already been over this. It isn't better quality (AP - vs. AP 4) and there's only more of it because you pay a lot more points (20% more per hit).

Peregrine wrote:We've already been over this. It isn't better quality (AP - vs. AP 4)

Punishers can take X amount of S5 firepower and can also take multimeltas and plasma cannons. Long fangs can't take those weapons if they're full up on heavy bolters.

Peregrine wrote:It's only a "tax" if you don't want the units you're forced to take. A rune priest by itself is reason to take SW allies, and the troops are a very solid unit that you're happy to have.

Sure, and if you're already taking space wolves allies, then sure, take a unit of long fangs. There's nothing wrong with that.

Not everybody is taking space wolf allies, though, for a variety of reasons. If you're not taking SW allies, though, then you should take a punisher, because it can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platorm that doesn't require said allies that you're not taking.

Also, even if you are allying with SW, you can only bring one unit of long fangs, whereas you can bring quite a few more punishers.

Don't forget wolves can split fire as well

That part is certainly true.

Of course, I can't think of how often I'll be wanting to shoot a couple of heavy bolters at one thing and a couple of heavy bolters at something else.

 Ailaros wrote:
Punishers can take X amount of S5 firepower and can also take multimeltas and plasma cannons. Long fangs can't take those weapons if they're full up on heavy bolters.

Except that if you remove the sponsons and hull guns then you're only equaling the Long Fangs' firepower at a much higher point cost and without AP 4. Which means that the Long Fangs can then drop a HB or two and equal the HB point efficiency of the Punisher while also bringing MM/PC/etc AND they have the ability to split fire the PC at an appropriate target while keeping HB fire on a HB target.

Not everybody is taking space wolf allies, though, for a variety of reasons. If you're not taking SW allies, though, then you should take a punisher, because it can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platorm that doesn't require said allies that you're not taking.

Actually you should take a Vulture. The Punisher is, even without considering allies, only (at most) the second-best choice.

 Peregrine wrote:

Lesson here: don't be fooled by fake "versatility". Focus your setups and do the job right.

I guess we need to define what is wanted by the thread "Most Versatile LMBT version".
I took the question as which tank would be able to most effectively engage the most types of targets.

For types of targets, I'd consider:
GEQ's/Hordes
MEQ's
TEQ's
AV10-13
AV14
Flyers
Monsters

If you can't even attempt to engage a flyer or AV14, I think you'd be hard pressed to call it Most Versatile.

Not that I'd actually want a tank that was the most versatile. I want a specialist tank that's really good at a specific job, and if it can do something else too, great.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I took the question as which tank would be able to most effectively engage the most types of targets.

"Effectively" is the key part of that. A token lascannon doesn't make a unit effective against AV 14, so it's silly to claim that an Eradicator with hull LC is "versatile" because it can shoot at infantry in cover and AV 14. It just has so little chance of doing anything that AV 14 targets might as well be impossible for purposes of evaluating it.

If you can't even attempt to engage a flyer or AV14, I think you'd be hard pressed to call it Most Versatile.

That's not really true at all. Being able to engage it with incredibly low chances of doing anything is barely any better than not being able to engage it at all, so it's silly to claim that a token amount of firepower against flyers/AV 14/etc makes a difference.

Anyway, the most versatile unit should be evaluated as a three-step process:

1) List all of the unit types which each candidate can deal with effectively.

2) Weight each target type by how effective the candidate is against it (IOW, "good against MEQs and transports" is worse than "amazing against MEQs and good against transports").

3) Weight each target type by how common it is (IOW, MEQs are more important than other infantry because marines are so much more common).

Once you've done that you can compare target lists and see which units have the best range of options.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


This is true, both about the Vanquisher and the Exterminator. The Exterminator also is a synchronized twin-linked autocannon, so you get 20pts worth of autocannon shots AND twin link them.

It's roughly like having three or even four squads with autocannons.

Yes, the exterminator is like having 3 squads with autocannons (180 points) or 1 heavy weapons squad (75 points). It is AR 14 and hence less vulnerable to a swath of weapons..but at the same time it is more vulnerable to those weapons that cam hurt it... A heavy weapons squad will never be destroyed by a single lascannon shot.

Also, even if you count the plasma's as equivalent to AC rounds, you get another...3 hits per turn at s7..so like another 3 squads or another heavy weapons squad. Then you add in your weapon as well.

So, assuming you ar eusing the tank as a replacement for the heavy weapons squads..you are paying about 50 points foran AR 14 moving lascannon. Not bad.

Oh, and even though I am not a fan of the punisher, I do agree with Alairos that it is better than taking allies.

ender502

Peregrine wrote:Except that if you remove the sponsons and hull guns... Which means that the Long Fangs can then drop a HB or two...

Yes, and if you don't arm any unit properly it's going to loo bad. Vets without special or heavy weapons are terrible compared to the killing power of infantry platoons that are.

If you're doing it right, though, then arguments based on doing it wrong don't have much value.

ender502 wrote:Yes, the exterminator is like having 3 squads with autocannons (180 points) or 1 heavy weapons squad (75 points).

Likewise.

Instead of comparing a naked exterminator to an autocannon HWS, it makes more sense to compare a bolter boat exterminator to an autocannon HWS and a heavy bolter HWS. In this case, they both do the same amount of the same kind of damage. Then, for only 20 points more, you lose scoring for half the games, but upgrade to MUCH, MUCH more durability, and the ability to move and fire better, and immunity to a wide swath of weapons, and a free search light.

Sounds like a hell of a deal to me.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, and if you don't arm any unit properly it's going to loo bad. Vets without special or heavy weapons are terrible compared to the killing power of infantry platoons that are.

You're missing the point completely. You can't base your "LR Punisher is better than HB Long Fangs" numbers on a LR Punisher with hull and sponson HBs and then simultaneously argue that the LR Punisher can gain versatility from taking a hull LC and PC/MM sponsons. If you want to consider non-HB sponson/hull weapons then you need to reduce the STR 5 firepower numbers appropriately, at which point the Long Fangs can ALSO bring that versatility while keeping their lead in efficiency.

Sounds like a hell of a deal to me.

Only because HWS are bad.