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Peregrine wrote:You can't base your "LR Punisher is better than HB Long Fangs" numbers on a LR Punisher with hull and sponson HBs and then simultaneously argue that the LR Punisher can gain versatility from taking a hull LC and PC/MM sponsons.

You can certainly say that a punisher is both if it has plasma cannons. Both put out the same amount of S5 hits, but then the russ has plasma cannons. That's both more dakka AND better dakka at the same time. I'd make the same argument for multimeltas as well.

Of course, that's one of the neat things about russes - you have options. If what you want is to put down more S5 hits than longfangs, there's an option for that. If what you want is to put down the same number of S5 hits, but also be great against any vehicle in the game, there's an option for that too. So many options, which is one of the things that makes russes versatile (versatility in the list building being another type of versatility).

Plus, all that aside, punishers still come on a more durable platform and don't require allies.

 Ailaros wrote:
You can certainly say that a punisher is both if it has plasma cannons. Both put out the same amount of S5 hits, but then the russ has plasma cannons. That's both more dakka AND better dakka at the same time. I'd make the same argument for multimeltas as well.

THAT ISN'T A VALID COMPARISON.

Seriously. If you want to compare the two units you have two choices:

1) Maximum STR 5: all-HB Punisher vs. all-HB Long Fangs.

or

2) Versatility: MM/PC/LC Punisher vs. Long Fangs with mixed HBs and PCs/LCs/MMs.

In either case the Long Fangs win. They have less total firepower, but better firepower per point, and firepower per point is the statistic that matters. What you can NOT do is use the all-HB Punisher to "prove" that it beats the Long Fangs at STR 5 while simultaneously talking about how its hull and sponson weapons let it be an anti-vehicle threat.

Plus, all that aside, punishers still come on a more durable platform and don't require allies.

Which is true. I'm not sure how the Long Fang comparison even came up since the real reason not to take Punishers is the Vulture, not allied Long Fangs. But if you're going to talk about the comparison you're going to do it right, not just make up whatever numbers you want.

To weigh in, if you need lots of s5 firepower for infantry, that normally means there is a lot of infantry. This means that said infantry may be vulnerable to multiple hits with a small/large blast.

If those 2 things are true, then we should be considering more than just who carries s5. For example, I can never see the point of long fangs with bolters because long fangs with missiles can do more damage to infantry with frag templates while retaining the s8 ap3. Likewise, a hb punisher versus a squad of 3 griffins, the griffins can deal much much more damage to almost all infantry squads. And if the enemy doesnt have a lot of infantry models for 3 large blasts to hit on, then what is the punisher shooting at anyway?

By trying to compare s5 shot quality I think the larger picture was lost. In any event, the punisher tank is expensive and very specialized, regardless of sponson weapon load out. This should automatically disqualify it from the versatile tank category.

For versatile LRBT, I like the exterminator with no upgrades, the vanilla with no upgrades, and the demolisher with no upgrades. I like the demolisher because of the rear av of 11 low price, for the times when you just need immunity to s4 in close combat for your guard tanks. Likewise, the exterminator and vanilla russ main guns have decent targets of engagement that you can almost always be shooting something, while again being cheap.

To me, the most important quality of the russ is its price. I want the most tanks on the field as possible to establish weapon immunity as quickly as possible. To this end, expensive russes are liable to be destroyed early on before the enemies anti av14 weapons have been silenced, creating holes in your defense that the rest of the enemy force can exploit. If that happens, then the entire point of the tank column is lost, and you would have been better off with killing power instead of tank defense.

For example, let us review the las cannon multi melta punisher. 2 such tanks cost the same as 3 vanilla tanks. 4 such tanks cost the same as 6 vanilla tanks.

If your opponent kills 2 of your tanks before you silence their av14 weapons, you are left with either 2 expensive punishers or 4 vanilla russes. The enemy may be able to avoid the remaining punishers and get to your troops, but the 4 russes, while only vanilla, can still shield your forces. Your tanks were never meant to do the heavy killing anyway, so the relative destructive power of 2 expensive punishers versus 4 vanilla russes is of less import than the fact that its 2 av14 tanks compared to 4.

Demolisher is great Ap2 large blast s10 shot that just ruins days but as is heavy, ordnance, and really short range it almost kills itself being so close.

Vanquisher is not that great. Running a vanq with pask and lascannon hull isnt too bad because he has his crack shot to give him a s9 main gun and a s10 lascannon if he doesnt move against vehicles

Punisher can be pretty scary as a bolter boat. Ive dropped daemon princes in a turn with the tank alone. Im not a fan of mixing weapons like lascannons and MM with it yet. its a bit pricey too.

LRBT is my favored choice as I like to keep my stuff cheap. Not bad for AV14 armor, long range gun, ap3 is nice against meq, its even got a chance to damage light armor, s8 insta kills t4 units, and its large blast!

Executioner with plasma cannons and lascannon hull is not to be messed with. I used it a game and dropped and entire thousand suns unit in 1 turn with just that tank. I love it but pricey.

Eradicators arent terrible and there great with the ignoring cover against GEQ's and +2 cover units. I see bolter boats as the best use for these for massed infantry fire power.

I have not used the exterminator yet but 4 s7 ap 4 twinlinked shots aren't terrible but arent amazing. Against hordes its only a couple shots, against meq it may not ven wound as its only ap4. And against most monstrous creatures will creature wounds but will still get good armor saves. With s7 it would also have some trouble against light armor but can still damage it. I feel that this tanks sponsons make it perform a certain role, as bolter boat will help against adding wounds and horde, with plasma against teq and meq/monstrous creatures and I myself will probably try the las hull and bolter sponsons to see how it performs. I have 1 on order but it is the 3rd edition one if im correct(just a really old model with a dude riding on the back)

Either way both parties seem to be forgetting... long fangs can split fire... This means no matter WHAT MIX OF WEAPONS you bring it can be useful. Long fangs win on cost and play style regardless.

tankboy145 wrote:
Demolisher is great Ap2 large blast s10 shot that just ruins days but as is heavy, ordnance, and really short range it almost kills itself being so close.

Vanquisher is not that great. Running a vanq with pask and lascannon hull isnt too bad because he has his crack shot to give him a s9 main gun and a s10 lascannon if he doesnt move against vehicles

Punisher can be pretty scary as a bolter boat. Ive dropped daemon princes in a turn with the tank alone. Im not a fan of mixing weapons like lascannons and MM with it yet. its a bit pricey too.

LRBT is my favored choice as I like to keep my stuff cheap. Not bad for AV14 armor, long range gun, ap3 is nice against meq, its even got a chance to damage light armor, s8 insta kills t4 units, and its large blast!

Executioner with plasma cannons and lascannon hull is not to be messed with. I used it a game and dropped and entire thousand suns unit in 1 turn with just that tank. I love it but pricey.

Eradicators arent terrible and there great with the ignoring cover against GEQ's and +2 cover units. I see bolter boats as the best use for these for massed infantry fire power.

I have not used the exterminator yet but 4 s7 ap 4 twinlinked shots aren't terrible but arent amazing. Against hordes its only a couple shots, against meq it may not ven wound as its only ap4. And against most monstrous creatures will creature wounds but will still get good armor saves. With s7 it would also have some trouble against light armor but can still damage it. I feel that this tanks sponsons make it perform a certain role, as bolter boat will help against adding wounds and horde, with plasma against teq and meq/monstrous creatures and I myself will probably try the las hull and bolter sponsons to see how it performs. I have 1 on order but it is the 3rd edition one if im correct(just a really old model with a dude riding on the back)

You dropped an entire unit. Of Thousand Sons. With an Executioner. In a single turn. You, my friend, really have to be favored by the dice gods.How many 4++ saves did they fail?

Anyhow, you should seriously try Exterminators in a few games before writing them off-they might not sound spectacular, but they're the ultimate utility russ if you want to make use of hull weapons/sponsons without getting overly points-heavy, and 4 TL autocannon shots are often better than you think. I believe they're much better than they sound, especially if you choose the right upgrades.

Hedkrakka wrote:

You dropped an entire unit. Of Thousand Sons. With an Executioner. In a single turn. You, my friend, really have to be favored by the dice gods.How many 4++ saves did they fail?

Anyhow, you should seriously try Exterminators in a few games before writing them off-they might not sound spectacular, but they're the ultimate utility russ if you want to make use of hull weapons/sponsons without getting overly points-heavy, and 4 TL autocannon shots are often better than you think. I believe they're much better than they sound, especially if you choose the right upgrades.

It was a full 10 man squad with a sorcerer and I killed everything except the sorcerer. I think I might have put a wound on him, He didnt know the executioner had that many small plast shots and his guys were a little closer than normal and sure enough I managed to reck them up. I believe 3 of the shots hit spot on and the last 2 scattered only like 3 inches still doing 2 or 3 wounds a piece and the lascannon actually hit and wounded.

Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?

As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.

May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.

 Ailaros wrote:

Corollax wrote:The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.

There is a lot that's missing from this statement.

Firstly, you have to ally space wolves, which you either may not want to do or may not have the models for. Plus, you can't just take devs, you have to take devs AND an HQ AND some troops. The ally tax is going to make this loadout rather expensive.

Secondly, 4 HB longfangs put down fewer hits than a punisher (8 to 11.5), and don't have the option to spend only 20 more points for a pair more heavy bolters. Comparing the longfangs to a bolter boat punisher, you're now looking at 8 hits against 14.5. Put another way, you're getting close to only having 2/3ds as many hits. The heavy bolters still have range (though only 6" more - remember, the russ can move and fire at full strength, unlike long fangs), and still have the Ap, but you've got to reach pretty far to say that the devs have better killing power.

Thirdly, it is much, much, MUCH easier to kill 5 dudes in power armor than a leman russ. Much. Furthermore, a russ will tend to still be able to fire at full effectiveness until it dies, whereas the long fangs start doing less and less damage as the models carrying the heavy bolters start to go down, meaning that you can make them moot without needing to actually wipe the squad. And that's to say nothing about secondary things like morale.

Fourthly, you can concentrate a lot more killing power onto a russ than on to longfangs. With a 4x HB dev squad, you're looking at 8 HB hits, but a russ can be upgraded to do the 11.5 with its basic weapons and then also shoot at stuff with multimeltas or plasma cannons.

Simply put, the punisher can put out a lot more dakka including of better quality, and it does it with better force concentration on a much more durable carrier, and is more simple, not requiring allies.

And you can take up to 9 of them, unlike your one longfang squad.

Can a punisher fire at two different units? The long fangs are also cheaper then the punisher (85 points to be precise)

Comparing Leman Russ Punisher V. Longfangs.

Wha.

What have I come in on?

Punisher confers cover AND armor saves.

No Twin linked. Heavy, thus slow.

Super expensive.

Str5 is a wildly awkward Str that isn't useful. Especially not at BS3

I think its good idea to scout a vehicle squadron consisting of demolishers.

tankboy145 wrote:
Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?

As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.

May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.

Depends on who you're playing and the points limit, really. I like bringing full HB and use them to put wounds on non-MEQ and take out some transports. If you want to, you can get PC or MM sponsons, which give you extra anti-infantry/anti-tank respectively, and if you're feeling really fancy, Pask can be considered with his crazy improved armor penetration which turns the exterminator autocannon into a Wazdakka Dakkakannon which is BS4 TL. All of these upgrades are super expensive (and ultimately not worth it), though, and as pointed out by others, not that good at making stuff explode. Don't forget the hull lascannon option if you go vehicle hunting, Pask basically turns it into a S10 weapon. Even without him, the Exterminator is one of the best Russes to get a hull LC, since its range matches the main gun's and can support anti-vehicle efforts, albeit at BS3. I don't like it, but it can work.

In my experience, the Exterminator's main advantage is psychological. People don't believe it can do a lot of damage, so they ignore an AV14 vehicle in favor of others. I may have been lucky, but I've seen many opponents shoot at Chimeras or even snapfire at Vendettas before shooting at it. 3 S7 hits per turn+sponsons+hull weapon aren't bad at all, and the Exterminator is super reliable. Battle Cannons, Eradicator Nova Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Demolisher Siege cannons can scatter off completely-the Exterminator Autocannon doesn't. You won't get any spectacular results, but a few hits every turn reliably. Best? No. Acceptable? Certainly. That's my opinion anyway.

Doesn't sound bad, I will probably stick with bolter boat as that is I believe what it comes with. I will also try the hull lascannon and bolter sponsons since it can also do some damage at vehicles. Maybe even the plasmas at one point. Im working on trying the different russes out but I hate when units get too expensive! especially tanks for when your opponent drops in some melta units and you lose a tank or 2 turn 1, nasty stuff. lol

tankboy145 wrote:I will probably stick with bolter boat as that is I believe what it comes with.

Actually, the new russ kits are pretty sweet. Not only do they give you all the sponsons options, and in plastic too, but they do them in a really neat way. Instead of the guns and the kind of drum things that keep the sponson in place being one piece, now they're two. It's a drum with a mounting lug in it.

As such, you can put the drum into the sponson as normal, and so long as you don't glue them down, you can swap them out easily for different ones. They even stay in there pretty well without glue.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
Okay, i keep seeing that but I have no idea what it means. What is TEQ?

Terminators and their equivalents. (Toughness 4 with a 2+ save)



Edit: "First Unread" doesn't always mean "the last post in the thread." Oops.

 Ailaros wrote:

tankboy145 wrote:I will probably stick with bolter boat as that is I believe what it comes with.

Actually, the new russ kits are pretty sweet. Not only do they give you all the sponsons options, and in plastic too, but they do them in a really neat way. Instead of the guns and the kind of drum things that keep the sponson in place being one piece, now they're two. It's a drum with a mounting lug in it.

As such, you can put the drum into the sponson as normal, and so long as you don't glue them down, you can swap them out easily for different ones. They even stay in there pretty well without glue.

Oh yea I got quite a few of the newer russes but those are all my battle tanks lol. Just the other day I got a good deal on an exterminator leman russ but its an older model because the autocannons are metal. Damn rule change made my LRBT with sponsons garbage and thats all I got, except 4 of them are with out sponsons I believe but those once are all neat and painted and wethered lol I guess its time to buy more turrets lol.

 Tomten wrote:
Does anyone use demolishers?

Everyone seems to use them here in Israel and dislike the vanilla LRBT due to the Heavy rule. Personally I don't like the 24'' range, though...

golan2072 wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
Does anyone use demolishers?

Everyone seems to use them here in Israel and dislike the vanilla LRBT due to the Heavy rule. Personally I don't like the 24'' range, though...

Cant you outflank them with creed?

The Punisher is not to be discounted; there are better anti-horde options out there, and as such, I tend to use it as a "here, make a bunch of saves, I hope you're lucky" tank.

It's bajillion shots mean it isn't half bad at flying circuses; Flying MCs really get annoyed with this tank, as does any unit which a small size.

See, blast template units are great, but there's a maximum possible wounds they can inflict, especially when targeting small units. My Executioner can wipe terminators, but my template is going to mean I'm only going to get a couple wounds. Punishers confer armour saves, but they make the enemy take enough of them to eventually fail.

As such, with the footslogging nature of 6th, I've found my punisher performs quite well; not brilliantly, as the BS3 is a liability, but it rarely fails to make back its cost. With Pask in a codex list, or with BS4 courtesy of Grizmund in the Armoured Company it becomes a good deal more deadly, but the price point is a bit high for my tastes.

That being said, the Punisher is not a versatile unit; it's more or less useless against vehicles, it's ok at anti-horde, and to an MEQ army, they're probably the least dangerous of all the Russ variants, but they remain a solid "ok" across the board.

I've actually found my Exterminators to be quite versatile, either as a mini-bolter boat, or as a vehicle/MC hunter.

Equipped with bolters, you've got 9 St 5 AP4 shots, and 4 twin linked St7 Ap4 shots; xenos hate this thing, and it reliably hits and wounds targets of a wide range reliably. Light vehicles don't like this tank, and you're more or less guaranteed to kill something, even if you're fighting a TEQ list.

The other option I use is Lascannon, MM sponsons, and go hunt vehicles and MCs. The autocannons are a good source of wounds/glancing hits, and the sponson options just do horrible things to the aforementioned targets, and in a pinch, it can go after things like Terminators, Paladins, Nobs and such with some efficiency.

Note, YMMV, as I run this tank as my Company Command Tank for my Armoured Company, and as such, it's BS4, and I usually buy an extra hull point for it, as the second option in particular loses a lot of power due to BS3.

Why would you take a punisher when there are much better choices?

Divination punisher squadron of 2 tanks minimum?

Rerolling 40 shots from just the main cannons is nothing to sneeze at. Chuck on 3 HB and a stubber or two in there and it's ork level of shooting for volume. Pretty much guaranteed to burn down everything infantry or MC based shy of a iron arm nid or wraith lord in one go and possibly those too with just sheer volume)

Personally my favorite version has been the exterminator with lascannon and HB sponsons as I use it mostly in a long range platform unsupported for target versitality.

I've been more and more swapping my LR's to the anti-infantry roles and my infantry and air power to the anti-tank roles in 6th but I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing.

Also, anyone use the eradicator anymore? I've been finding it to be kind of good lately mostly cause I seem to face it off against alot of other guard, tau, eldar, and necron warrior blocks. Vs marines it just forces saves but still been kind of useful from a TAC perspective.

If you see your opponent rolling out Orks, 'Nids, or Tau, use the Punisher.
You will vaporize the enemy.

 797th Red Tigers wrote:
If you see your opponent rolling out Orks, 'Nids, or Tau, use the Punisher.
You will vaporize the enemy.

Not to mention Eldar/DE. I hate seeing one on the board when I bring my poor, poor AV10/11 boats and Dark Brethren.

Hedkrakka wrote:

tankboy145 wrote:
Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?

As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.

May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.

Depends on who you're playing and the points limit, really. I like bringing full HB and use them to put wounds on non-MEQ and take out some transports. If you want to, you can get PC or MM sponsons, which give you extra anti-infantry/anti-tank respectively, and if you're feeling really fancy, Pask can be considered with his crazy improved armor penetration which turns the exterminator autocannon into a Wazdakka Dakkakannon which is BS4 TL. All of these upgrades are super expensive (and ultimately not worth it), though, and as pointed out by others, not that good at making stuff explode. Don't forget the hull lascannon option if you go vehicle hunting, Pask basically turns it into a S10 weapon. Even without him, the Exterminator is one of the best Russes to get a hull LC, since its range matches the main gun's and can support anti-vehicle efforts, albeit at BS3. I don't like it, but it can work.

In my experience, the Exterminator's main advantage is psychological. People don't believe it can do a lot of damage, so they ignore an AV14 vehicle in favor of others. I may have been lucky, but I've seen many opponents shoot at Chimeras or even snapfire at Vendettas before shooting at it. 3 S7 hits per turn+sponsons+hull weapon aren't bad at all, and the Exterminator is super reliable. Battle Cannons, Eradicator Nova Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Demolisher Siege cannons can scatter off completely-the Exterminator Autocannon doesn't. You won't get any spectacular results, but a few hits every turn reliably. Best? No. Acceptable? Certainly. That's my opinion anyway.

Those sponsons aren't going to do an awful lot against the only thing that the Exterminator has over the Punisher, i.e. anti-light vehicle. S5 will bounce off tanks, and against infantry still doesn't make it as affective as the Punisher.

For comparison, against MEQ the Punisher gets 3 hits, 2.5 wounds and 0.83 kills, with the HBs adding 1 to that. The Punisher gives 2.2 kills, plus the HBs. And whether or not you should devote so many points to a tank that is weak against both infantry *and* vehicls, as opposed to one that is somewhat strong against infantry and weak against vehicles, is debatable.

 Testify wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:

tankboy145 wrote:
Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?

As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.

May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.

Depends on who you're playing and the points limit, really. I like bringing full HB and use them to put wounds on non-MEQ and take out some transports. If you want to, you can get PC or MM sponsons, which give you extra anti-infantry/anti-tank respectively, and if you're feeling really fancy, Pask can be considered with his crazy improved armor penetration which turns the exterminator autocannon into a Wazdakka Dakkakannon which is BS4 TL. All of these upgrades are super expensive (and ultimately not worth it), though, and as pointed out by others, not that good at making stuff explode. Don't forget the hull lascannon option if you go vehicle hunting, Pask basically turns it into a S10 weapon. Even without him, the Exterminator is one of the best Russes to get a hull LC, since its range matches the main gun's and can support anti-vehicle efforts, albeit at BS3. I don't like it, but it can work.

In my experience, the Exterminator's main advantage is psychological. People don't believe it can do a lot of damage, so they ignore an AV14 vehicle in favor of others. I may have been lucky, but I've seen many opponents shoot at Chimeras or even snapfire at Vendettas before shooting at it. 3 S7 hits per turn+sponsons+hull weapon aren't bad at all, and the Exterminator is super reliable. Battle Cannons, Eradicator Nova Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Demolisher Siege cannons can scatter off completely-the Exterminator Autocannon doesn't. You won't get any spectacular results, but a few hits every turn reliably. Best? No. Acceptable? Certainly. That's my opinion anyway.

Those sponsons aren't going to do an awful lot against the only thing that the Exterminator has over the Punisher, i.e. anti-light vehicle. S5 will bounce off tanks, and against infantry still doesn't make it as affective as the Punisher.

For comparison, against MEQ the Punisher gets 3 hits, 2.5 wounds and 0.83 kills, with the HBs adding 1 to that. The Punisher gives 2.2 kills, plus the HBs. And whether or not you should devote so many points to a tank that is weak against both infantry *and* vehicls, as opposed to one that is somewhat strong against infantry and weak against vehicles, is debatable.

OK, Mathhammer time. Again. I hate Mathhammer.
Punisher vs. Exterminator

vs. AV11 (say, a Rhino)
Range: 24"
The Punisher w/HB sponsons gets 29 shots, 14.5 hits, 2.08 glances.
The Exterminator w/HB sponsons gets 4 S7 & 9 S5 shots, 3 S7 & 4.5 S5 hits, 1.0 pen, 1.25 glances.

Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 0.75 glance.
Exterminator: same as above, 1.0 pen, 1.25 glances.

Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 1.0 pen, 0.5 glances.

Performance: Even at optimum range, the Punisher loses to the Exterminator. 0:3

vs. MEQ (T4, 3+)
Range: 24"
Punisher: 14.5 hits, 9.67 wounds, 3.22 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 4.5 S5 hits, 5.5 wounds, 1.83 unsaved wounds

Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound
Exterminator: As above, 1,83 unsaved wounds

Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 2.5 wounds, 0.83 unsaved wound

Performance: The Punisher is better when its cannon is in range, but loses heavily if it isn't. 1:5

vs. GEQ (T3, 5+)
Range: 24"
Punisher: 14.5 hits, 12.08 wounds, 9.31 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 4.5 S5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 3.75 unsaved wounds + 2.5 ID wounds

Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 3.75 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: As above, 3.75 unsaved wounds + 2.5 ID wounds

Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 2.5 ID wounds

Performance: Again, the Punisher kicks ass at close range but is helpless otherwise. 2:7.

Summary: The HB Punisher is only better at really close range against infantry targets, and is comparatively poor against AV11 transports, and can't hurt AV12 at all. That's the main issue with the Punisher. If you only look at the number of shots, you're not going to get the big picture. Add the fact that the Exterminator is some 30 points cheaper, gets at least one extra round of shooting due to its longer range and all you lose in return is 1 point of rear armor, the Punisher is just no match unless you face an assault horde like Nids or maybe Orks. In a TAC list, I'd opt for the Exterminator first. The Punisher is good, I mean very good when it has the right targets, but getting that target in range is problematic with heavy vehicle+short range. That's my reasoning anyway, but yours is a valid point of view too.

Hedkrakka wrote:

 Testify wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:

tankboy145 wrote:
Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?

As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.

May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.

Depends on who you're playing and the points limit, really. I like bringing full HB and use them to put wounds on non-MEQ and take out some transports. If you want to, you can get PC or MM sponsons, which give you extra anti-infantry/anti-tank respectively, and if you're feeling really fancy, Pask can be considered with his crazy improved armor penetration which turns the exterminator autocannon into a Wazdakka Dakkakannon which is BS4 TL. All of these upgrades are super expensive (and ultimately not worth it), though, and as pointed out by others, not that good at making stuff explode. Don't forget the hull lascannon option if you go vehicle hunting, Pask basically turns it into a S10 weapon. Even without him, the Exterminator is one of the best Russes to get a hull LC, since its range matches the main gun's and can support anti-vehicle efforts, albeit at BS3. I don't like it, but it can work.

In my experience, the Exterminator's main advantage is psychological. People don't believe it can do a lot of damage, so they ignore an AV14 vehicle in favor of others. I may have been lucky, but I've seen many opponents shoot at Chimeras or even snapfire at Vendettas before shooting at it. 3 S7 hits per turn+sponsons+hull weapon aren't bad at all, and the Exterminator is super reliable. Battle Cannons, Eradicator Nova Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Demolisher Siege cannons can scatter off completely-the Exterminator Autocannon doesn't. You won't get any spectacular results, but a few hits every turn reliably. Best? No. Acceptable? Certainly. That's my opinion anyway.

Those sponsons aren't going to do an awful lot against the only thing that the Exterminator has over the Punisher, i.e. anti-light vehicle. S5 will bounce off tanks, and against infantry still doesn't make it as affective as the Punisher.

For comparison, against MEQ the Punisher gets 3 hits, 2.5 wounds and 0.83 kills, with the HBs adding 1 to that. The Punisher gives 2.2 kills, plus the HBs. And whether or not you should devote so many points to a tank that is weak against both infantry *and* vehicls, as opposed to one that is somewhat strong against infantry and weak against vehicles, is debatable.

OK, Mathhammer time. Again. I hate Mathhammer.
Punisher vs. Exterminator

vs. AV11 (say, a Rhino)
Range: 24"
The Punisher w/HB sponsons gets 29 shots, 14.5 hits, 2.08 glances.
The Exterminator w/HB sponsons gets 4 S7 & 9 S5 shots, 3 S7 & 4.5 S5 hits, 1.0 pen, 1.25 glances.

Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 0.75 glance.
Exterminator: same as above, 1.0 pen, 1.25 glances.

Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 1.0 pen, 0.5 glances.

Performance: Even at optimum range, the Punisher loses to the Exterminator. 0:3

vs. MEQ (T4, 3+)
Range: 24"
Punisher: 14.5 hits, 9.67 wounds, 3.22 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 4.5 S5 hits, 5.5 wounds, 1.83 unsaved wounds

Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound
Exterminator: As above, 1,83 unsaved wounds

Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 2.5 wounds, 0.83 unsaved wound

Performance: The Punisher is better when its cannon is in range, but loses heavily if it isn't. 1:5

vs. GEQ (T3, 5+)
Range: 24"
Punisher: 14.5 hits, 12.08 wounds, 9.31 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 4.5 S5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 3.75 unsaved wounds + 2.5 ID wounds

Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 3.75 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: As above, 3.75 unsaved wounds + 2.5 ID wounds

Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 2.5 ID wounds

Performance: Again, the Punisher kicks ass at close range but is helpless otherwise. 2:7.

Summary: The HB Punisher is only better at really close range against infantry targets, and is comparatively poor against AV11 transports, and can't hurt AV12 at all. That's the main issue with the Punisher. If you only look at the number of shots, you're not going to get the big picture. Add the fact that the Exterminator is some 30 points cheaper, gets at least one extra round of shooting due to its longer range and all you lose in return is 1 point of rear armor, the Punisher is just no match unless you face an assault horde like Nids or maybe Orks. In a TAC list, I'd opt for the Exterminator first. The Punisher is good, I mean very good when it has the right targets, but getting that target in range is problematic with heavy vehicle+short range. That's my reasoning anyway, but yours is a valid point of view too.

Thanks for thw mathhammer. I rely on it most of the time. The only reason I dont take the punisher is because Its just so expensive. I mean its only 30pts more than the exterminator with bolters but those are upgrades spent else where in the army. I would assume bolter boat exterminator is better than adding a hull lascannon then as well.

unless you're fighting GEQ hordes I'd say go with the hull LC everytime. It complements your main weapons range and target priorities. It also allows the tank to engage AV11+ with some reliability at the cost of horde wounds. There's rarely a time that a HB will be more useful then a LC. In fact I'd say it's a toss up between a HF or HB. The HF is good for some CC deterant or cover flushing.

Just take the standard LR.

 Tomten wrote:
Just take the standard LR.

I normally do as thats my favorite variant but Im experimenting with some of the other russes to see if theres other viable options.

tankboy145 wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
Just take the standard LR.

I normally do as thats my favorite variant but Im experimenting with some of the other russes to see if theres other viable options.

Its good to try out the different variants.

I have only used the LRBT and the demolisher. Even then i dont have much luck with the dice so reluctant to try out the others.

Mind you, I run mine sponsonless as well!