Imperial Guard: The good, the bad, the ugly??

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**thewarsmith**

Couple questions:

1) Where is the most current armoured/tank army listed? I know it's been in several forms throughout the years.

2) I don't have my rulebook on me at work. I see "lumbering behemoth" is changed to "heavy tank". What does that mean. I haven't played much 6th edition yet.

3) If I'm running 2-3 vet squads anyway, then putting Harker in one seems to be a solid choice, right?

4) Scout sentinels coming in from the side of the board(or back!!) seem pretty good to get some volume of shots into side armors, right?

**Shadox**

thewarsmith wrote:
Couple questions:

1) Where is the most current armoured/tank army listed? I know it's been in several forms throughout the years.

2) I don't have my rulebook on me at work. I see "lumbering behemoth" is changed to "heavy tank". What does that mean. I haven't played much 6th edition yet.

3) If I'm running 2-3 vet squads anyway, then putting Harker in one seems to be a solid choice, right?

4) Scout sentinels coming in from the side of the board(or back!!) seem pretty good to get some volume of shots into side armors, right?

1)Imperial Armour Volume 1 Second Edition

2) The vehicle can only move 6" but it always counts as stationary for shooting. The problem is Heavy overrides the old LB rule so your secondary weapons can only snapshot if you are firing ordnance weapons.

3) Idk a relentless HB is nice to have but if you're running meltaguns in the vet squad the hb is wasted against vehicles so you should run him with plasmaguns or flamers

4) Can they even come in from behind anymore?

**martin74**

1. Nothing like that any more, really. Just figure out what you want to run.

2. Lumbering behemoth does not exist. Now, leman Russ tanks can only move 6 inches. In return for that "drawback" they can fire every heavy weapon at full BS. Ordnance weapons don't count. Heavy weapon is the key word here. So, a punisher with heavy bolters all around is 29 strength 5 shots a turn.

3. Harker is situational. He gives his squad stealth, which works great behind the aegis defense line and ruins. Or, he can infiltrate. I run him with three snipers and a rocket launcher, that is my 5th vet squad at 1750 points.

4. Scout sentinels put flank very well to hit side or rear armor. Don't waste points on upgrading to las cannon. The two auto cannon shts are better than the one S9, and three S6 shots are good too. If you run a squad of three scouts with multi lasers that is pretty cheap and good fire power.

**TheCaptain**

Vaktathi wrote:
TheCaptain wrote:

Your list is decent, save for a few things.

Griffon is OK, Hydras are Mediocre, Straken is Mediocre, LR Exterminator is OK, Valkyries are OK, Stormtroopers are OK, Chimera, Medusa, and Demolisher are all good, and the LR Punisher is OK.

Fact.
The Griffon is actually a very capable unit, the problem is that it's in a slot that people need for different roles. S6 AP4 rerollable large blasts are very potent for 75pts each, it's just you usually need that HS slot for AT guns

Hydras are debateable. In 5th they were stellar. In 6th, if you're facing Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, or any marine army running flyers and/or land speeders, they're still stellar. It's just that against everything else they're pointless

I noted that the LR Exterimantor is good with one kit, aside from that I'd agree it's ok.

Valkyries I might agree with being ok when they're stock, with rocket pods I think they're a solid Good.

Stormtroopers in almost any role other than suicide melta are awful, they'll trade even wounds with equally costed marines in a firefight at 18" and under and lose at 24" and get butchered in assaults, they pay way too many points for that AP3, and don't have the statline or weapon type to make good use of their pistol/CCW.

Demolishers got hurt very hard by the Lumbering Behemoth-Heavy change, probably the most out of any LR tank, and at 165pts a pop before anything else, they just end up being overpriced Vindicators.

Medusa's are good against very heavy tanks, but against anything else you'll get better efficiency out of other units, and they're not the hardiest units around sadly. They also tend to be dead very quickly

I haven't been a fan of chimeras in 6th, they're have their uses, but they definitely aren't as useful due to transport changes and their use on their own has significantly diminished.

You're not accounting for enough playstyles.

With Gunline, Stormtroopers, and medusae are great.

With Blob+tanks, Demolishers are tits.

And the Chimera is a great transport still. Compared to other things you can spend 55 points, maybe not, but compared to other transports, it's hard to beat.

**Vaktathi**

Could you elaborate? I'm not seeing how say, demolishers add such a powerful dimension to "blob+tank" lists and where stormtroopers are great in gunlines, or how medusas are better for gunlines than mech armies (I'd actually think they'd be better for mech armies as they don't pack as many long range infantry based AT guns).

**Trickstick**

martin74 wrote:
1. Nothing like that any more, really. Just figure out what you want to run.

Imperial Armour Volume 1 Second Edition - Imperial Guard has the latest armoured battlegroup list. It came out at the beginning of this month.

**TheCaptain**

Vaktathi wrote:
Could you elaborate? I'm not seeing how say, demolishers add such a powerful dimension to "blob+tank" lists and where stormtroopers are great in gunlines, or how medusas are better for gunlines than mech armies (I'd actually think they'd be better for mech armies as they don't pack as many long range infantry based AT guns).

Stormtroopers add needed backfield mobility to gunlines.
Medusae gain the benefit of guaranteed cover, as well as an enemy forced to "come to you".

Demolishers in blob+tank lists are constantly screened by infantry, and share movement speed with the units trudging upfield.

**thewarsmith**

What's a blobtank list?

**TheCaptain**

thewarsmith wrote:
What's a blobtank list?

Blobs backed by tanks.

**Evertras**

thewarsmith wrote:
What's a blobtank list?

I'm very curious about this as well, as that seems like vaguely the style I'm going to end up going for.

I thought you mentioned earlier that guard can't do hybrid well?

**thewarsmith**

blobs as in lots of infantry??

**Trickstick**

Blobtank is what I am leaning towards now.

(As an aside, is that going to be the name for this type of list? These things have a habit of sticking.)

They get around the hybrid probem by ignoring chimera based hulls, at least in the main. You can still fit in some artillery hiding behind russes or something. Russes become very resilient when surrounded by infantry. On the other hand, you can use the russes as an advancing wall of cover, for those games where the enemy doesn't want to close with them.

**TheCaptain**

Evertras wrote:
thewarsmith wrote:
What's a blobtank list?

I'm very curious about this as well, as that seems like vaguely the style I'm going to end up going for.

I thought you mentioned earlier that guard can't do hybrid well?

It's not hybrid.

The three playstyles of guard are "Foot, Mech, and Aircav."

Those three things all refer to where your troops are: On foot, in Chimeras, or in Flyers, respectively.

All of these lists are usually backed by tanks or artillery. because that's what guard does.

"Hybrid" just refers to mixing the aforementioned playstyles too much. ie. 3 troop choices on foot, 3 in chimeras. This makes target priority easier for your opponent.

Just about every list in IG should have some tanks or artillery.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trickstick wrote:
Blobtank is what I am leaning towards now.

(As an aside, is that going to be the name for this type of list? These things have a habit of sticking.)

They get around the hybrid probem by ignoring chimera based hulls, at least in the main. You can still fit in some artillery hiding behind russes or something. Russes become very resilient when surrounded by infantry. On the other hand, you can use the russes as an advancing wall of cover, for those games where the enemy doesn't want to close with them.

I mean, blobtank sounds hilarious, and if I'm credited with the naming of an IG playstyle, I could dig it.

But "blobtank" is as old as guard.

Heck. It's what Ailaros has been playing for 2 editions, pretty much. (Until recent)

**Evertras**

TheCaptain wrote:
Evertras wrote:
thewarsmith wrote:
What's a blobtank list?

I'm very curious about this as well, as that seems like vaguely the style I'm going to end up going for.

I thought you mentioned earlier that guard can't do hybrid well?

It's not hybrid.

The three playstyles of guard are "Foot, Mech, and Aircav."

Obviously, those three things all refer to where your troops are: On foot, in Chimeras, or in Flyers, respectively.

All of these lists are usually backed by tanks or artillery. because that's what guard does.

"Hybrid" just refers to mixing the aforementioned playstyles too much. ie. 3 troop choices on foot, 3 in chimeras. This makes target priority easier for your opponent.

Just about every list in IG should have some tanks or artillery.

Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying in the other thread then. When I said 'hybrid' I meant infantry blobs + tank/artillery support.

I'm a dumb.

**TheCaptain**

Evertras wrote:

Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying in the other thread then. When I said 'hybrid' I meant infantry blobs + tank/artillery support.

I'm a dumb.

'sall good. Learning Dakka/40k jargon is almost as hard as learning to play the game itself

**thewarsmith**

So, as a ROUGH list, would this be competitive?

1 company command

2 platoon command w/ flamers(suicide them)
4 infantry platoons
6 heavy weapons(3 autocannons, 3 lascannons)

1 LR Executioner
1 LR Battle Cannon
1 Hellhound
2 veteran squads, 1 w/ melta, 1 w/ plasma, in chimeras(or maybe 1 in valkyrie)
1 valkyrie/vendetta
1 basilisk
3 scout sentinels w/ multilasers
10 storm troopers w/ melta

**TheCaptain**

thewarsmith wrote:
So, as a ROUGH list, would this be competitive?

1 company command

2 platoon command w/ flamers(suicide them)
4 infantry platoons
6 heavy weapons(3 autocannons, 3 lascannons)

1 LR Executioner
1 LR Battle Cannon
1 Hellhound
2 veteran squads, 1 w/ melta, 1 w/ plasma, in chimeras(or maybe 1 in valkyrie)
1 valkyrie/vendetta
1 basilisk
3 scout sentinels w/ multilasers
10 storm troopers w/ melta

This list is the definition of hybrid.

Like I said; 3 Playstyles: Platoons on foot. Vets in Chimeras. Vets in Flyers.

Try to pick one and focus on it, then worry about vehicle support after.

**thewarsmith**

Should I limit it back to only 1 platoon, and make the 20 guardsmen I have leftover into veterans??

**TheCaptain**

thewarsmith wrote:
Should I limit it back to only 1 platoon, and make the 20 guardsmen I have leftover into veterans??

If you're going for foot-guard, take two platoons with 30 or more guardsmen in each combined squad.

If you're going Mech, you want like five/six veteran squads in Chimeras

Don't mix.

**thewarsmith**

So add more platoon squads and cut back on the veterans? Maybe keep 1 vet squad in the valkyrie?

**TheCaptain**

thewarsmith wrote:
So add more platoon squads and cut back on the veterans? Maybe keep 1 vet squad in the valkyrie?

Well. You've got a conundrum. If you take two platoons, you have two PCS's that you have to do something with.

I like packing them with 4 flamers and putting them in flyers; drop 'em in lategame for some fireball fun.

If you feel that you can do something else with one of the PCS's, then just fireball up one, and put a Meltavet squad in a flyer.

But both flyers should be Vendettas. Let your tanks/artillery handle the blasts.

**ShatteredBlade**

What did the FAQ do for the punisher? I can not find a thing about it.

**TheCaptain**

ShatteredBlade wrote:
What did the FAQ do for the punisher? I can not find a thing about it.

The Vulture Punisher stuff is in the FW FAQ. Got Strafing run and Vector Dancer. The LRPunisher didn't change.

**Vaktathi**

TheCaptain wrote:
Stormtroopers add needed backfield mobility to gunlines.

I can see that, but they're not particularly good at providing that for their cost, at least as anything but minimum sized DS suicide squads, and there are other ways to fill that need.

Medusae gain the benefit of guaranteed cover, as well as an enemy forced to "come to you".

Most IG AT platforms in that situation do that however.

Demolishers in blob+tank lists are constantly screened by infantry, and share movement speed with the units trudging upfield.

Any Russ tank fits that bill however, I don't see how the Demolisher variant in particular fits well there as opposed to other types.

**thewarsmith**

Makes it so you can move 6" and fire ALL heavy weapons, so the punisher can move 6" and fire 29 S5 shots, +3 S4 shots if it has a h. stubber

Here's the list of what I'm getting. My notes on what to make them into are on the side. Let me know if I should change the list. I'll add to the list eventually, but I'd like to limit my army to what I have in the below

3 Cadian Command Squad 1 HQ and 2 platoon commands(will ship you a metal standard)
-platoons w/ flamers/etc. equip as you deem fit
1 primaris psyker
2 commisars(1 lord version if possible)
10 karskins w/ melta and plasma
As many heavy weapons as possible(I'll ship you box of 3 to make 6 from)
40 cadians(4 x 10 squads),
20 veterans(1 x h. flamer,
3 Chimera
1 Hellhound optional weapon swapouts
3 sentinels optional weapon swapouts
1 Leman Russ standard battle cannon variety
1 Leman Russ Demolisher
1 basilisk(camo netting would be great)
1 Valkyrie(optional weapon swaps?)

1 skaven tainted chimera(figured i'd convert some skaven into guard units to put inside, or make a "skaven" cyclops demo vehicle!!!!)
1 skaven commisar yarrik

**TheCaptain**

Vaktathi wrote:

Most IG AT platforms in that situation do that however.

But Medusas do it stronger and more penetrate-y.

Any Russ tank fits that bill however, I don't see how the Demolisher variant in particular fits well there as opposed to other types.

Demolishers do it stronger and more penetrate-y.

The idea isn't that they are more equipped for the role; its that the role makes their weaknesses less significant, letting them excel more with their powerful guns.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

thewarsmith wrote:
Makes it so you can move 6" and fire ALL heavy weapons, so the punisher can move 6" and fire 29 S5 shots, +3 S4 shots if it has a h. stubber

Here's the list of what I'm getting. My notes on what to make them into are on the side. Let me know if I should change the list. I'll add to the list eventually, but I'd like to limit my army to what I have in the below

3 Cadian Command Squad 1 HQ and 2 platoon commands(will ship you a metal standard)
-platoons w/ flamers/etc. equip as you deem fit
1 primaris psyker
2 commisars(1 lord version if possible)
10 karskins w/ melta and plasma
As many heavy weapons as possible(I'll ship you box of 3 to make 6 from)
40 cadians(4 x 10 squads),
20 veterans(1 x h. flamer,
3 Chimera
1 Hellhound optional weapon swapouts
3 sentinels optional weapon swapouts
1 Leman Russ standard battle cannon variety
1 Leman Russ Demolisher
1 basilisk(camo netting would be great)
1 Valkyrie(optional weapon swaps?)

1 skaven tainted chimera(figured i'd convert some skaven into guard units to put inside, or make a "skaven" cyclops demo vehicle!!!!)
1 skaven commisar yarrik

Frankly, you have enough for an army. But not enough for a good army.

You'll need. (Minimum)

1 Company Command Squad

2 Platoon Command Squads

48 guardsmen (Inc. 6 Sergeants, and 6 Melta/Plasmaguns)

6 Heavy weapon teams (Autocannons/Lascannons)

That covers your mans (to a minimum)

Then LRBT Variants/Artillery and Flyers.

Everything else is largely useless for a foot list.

**thewarsmith**

So you're saying ditch the vets and stormtroopers?

**TheCaptain**

thewarsmith wrote:
So you're saying ditch the vets and stormtroopers?

Or use the vets as regular infantry squads and use the stormtroopers as Vendetta-transported Vets.

As you can see, IG are no bargain-army. Quite pricey to get the right stuff.

**thewarsmith**

So which would be better

2 platoons w/ 3 infantry squads each

or

3 platoons w/ 2 infantry squads each

**TheCaptain**

thewarsmith wrote:
So which would be better

2 platoons w/ 3 infantry squads each

or

3 platoons w/ 2 infantry squads each

2 with 3.

Gives you less PCS's. I hate PCS's, think they are a horrible unit whose only use is to grav-chute in from a flyer and suicide-kill stuff.

Not to mention, 30 man blobs are quite sturdy, as well as packing the punch of 3 heavy and 3 special weapons in a single unit.