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well, isn't the benefit of the additional PCS that you get 3 more heavies and 3 more specials?

You know, I was thinking to myself, "heavy squads suck cause you just gotta march them up by themselvs", totally forgot about combined arms.

So you suggest combine arming all 30 guardsmen? Doesn't that put them at risk of being assaulted and kinda neutralized?

thewarsmith wrote:
well, isn't the benefit of the additional PCS that you get 3 more heavies and 3 more specials?

You know, I was thinking to myself, "heavy squads suck cause you just gotta march them up by themselvs", totally forgot about combined arms.

So you suggest combine arming all 30 guardsmen? Doesn't that put them at risk of being assaulted and kinda neutralized?

Yeah, but the Platoon Command squad (PCS) itself is crap. The only reason to take them is because you have to if you want to take infantry squads. They are 5 dudes with BS3. Only thing worth giving them is flamers and a flyer, like I've said. Otherwise, they just die to a few bolters.

And yeah, I suggest combining the 30 men. As far as getting wiped in assault;

Either take a Commissar for stubborn

Or, if you are open to Allies and want the best choice, Put a Rune Priest in the blob. Amazing choice. 24" psychic bubble defense, Prescience on the blob, ATSKNF, all great additions to a blob.

My allied choice will be my salamanders army, so that said, I could still put a librarian in there.

Hmmm, who offers "first rank fire, 2nd rank fire"? command or platoon? Seems that would be pretty devestating with a 30 man squad of guardsmen!!

thewarsmith wrote:
My allied choice will be my salamanders army, so that said, I could still put a librarian in there.

Hmmm, who offers "first rank fire, 2nd rank fire"? command or platoon? Seems that would be pretty devestating with a 30 man squad of guardsmen!!

Both can do that, but it's not as good as it seems.

On average, at rapid fire range with 30 lasguns, you'll kill 5.2 marines.

You can put a Librarian in, yes, but know there are a few drawbacks. No Denying all psychic powers in 24" on a 4+, and no Prescience.

But ATSKNF will prevent them from getting Swept in assault, so that's a plus.

Yeah 2 PCS and 3 infantry squads (4 kill points blobbed) is what I would recommend too. Reason being if you get the kill points mission you can blob them all up and reduce your kill points better than having 3 PCS and 2 infantry squads (6 kill points blobbed)

You might even put a commissar in each platoon in case you blob them up you have a 1 commissar in each blob. Handy for holding relics and keeping them from running off the table.

So what I did w/ the list is:

I changed the vets to standard infantry, and removed the 2 chimeras to add 3 more infantry squads

So for now, I've got 90 guardsmen!!!

Would you suggest now 3 platoons w/ 3 squads each? Or a 4 squad/5 squad split??

thewarsmith wrote:
So what I did w/ the list is:

I changed the vets to standard infantry, and removed the 2 chimeras to add 3 more infantry squads

So for now, I've got 90 guardsmen!!!

Would you suggest now 3 platoons w/ 3 squads each? Or a 4 squad/5 squad split??

4/5 will give you some excellent firepower. 4 squad can sit backfield and hold it down, and the 5 squad can push up the field with an attached captain/vulkan and slap around some objective holders. If you take Vulkan, give your sergeants Power Axes. If you take a Captain, give him a Thunder Hammer/StormShield, and still give sergeants power axes.

Backfield blob can have any IC, and just needs powerful guns. Lascannons and Melta/Plasma.

You think I'll have enough heavy weapons and tank punching power then? I'll have options for 15+1 heavy weapon squads(1 for company command, but none for Platoon command).

What would be a good heavy weapon loadout?

Is there a working completed version of this list you can put up so we can look at iot as we scroll. Lot of posts. Just hoping I can get the visual on what it is in total, currently. Context matters!

thewarsmith wrote:
You think I'll have enough heavy weapons and tank punching power then? I'll have options for 15+1 heavy weapon squads(1 for company command, but none for Platoon command).

What would be a good heavy weapon loadout?

Lascannons/Meltaguns for the backfield blob and (can't believe I'm saying this) Heavy bolter, Plasmaguns (or if you're short on points, flamers) for your aggressive blob.. Only loadouts worth taking.

Heavy bolter is cheap, and isn't totally horrible in snapshots.

Every other weapon needs no explanation for why they're useful.

Here's my current list for 2250(technically currently 2255)

150 Company Command, regimental standard, vox, lascannon, 2 bodyguards, carapace armor


Platoon #1
65 Platoon Command, 1 heavy flamer, 3 flamer
85 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher, vox
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
105 heavy weapon squad, 3 lascannons

Platoon #2
65 Platoon Command, 1 heavy flamer, 3 flamer
85 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher, vox
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
75 heavy weapon squad, 3 autocannons

Platoon #3
30 Platoon Command
85 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher, vox
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
75 heavy weapon squad, 3 autocannons

130 Hellhound
130 Vendetta
105 3 scout sentinels, multilasers

210 Leman Russ Executioner, heavy bolter sponsons
170 Leman Russ Battle Tank, heavy bolter sponsons
200 Leman Russ Punisher, heavy bolter sponsons

 TheCaptain wrote:

thewarsmith wrote:
My allied choice will be my salamanders army, so that said, I could still put a librarian in there.

Hmmm, who offers "first rank fire, 2nd rank fire"? command or platoon? Seems that would be pretty devestating with a 30 man squad of guardsmen!!

Both can do that, but it's not as good as it seems.

On average, at rapid fire range with 30 lasguns, you'll kill 5.2 marines.

You can put a Librarian in, yes, but know there are a few drawbacks. No Denying all psychic powers in 24" on a 4+, and no Prescience.

But ATSKNF will prevent them from getting Swept in assault, so that's a plus.

I would actually like to add something, if you add a Vanilla Librarian, while you loose out on Prescience, you also have the ability to give your Guardsmen a 5++, which is pretty good considering that your normal guardsman doesn't even get an armor save from a bolter, effectively cutting down your casualties by a third when outside of cover. You can also have fun with Gate moving a blob halfway across the battlefield. Not as good as Prescience since you lack the raw damage output, but still not bad.

RegalPhantom wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

thewarsmith wrote:
My allied choice will be my salamanders army, so that said, I could still put a librarian in there.

Hmmm, who offers "first rank fire, 2nd rank fire"? command or platoon? Seems that would be pretty devestating with a 30 man squad of guardsmen!!

Both can do that, but it's not as good as it seems.

On average, at rapid fire range with 30 lasguns, you'll kill 5.2 marines.

You can put a Librarian in, yes, but know there are a few drawbacks. No Denying all psychic powers in 24" on a 4+, and no Prescience.

But ATSKNF will prevent them from getting Swept in assault, so that's a plus.

I would actually like to add something, if you add a Vanilla Librarian, while you loose out on Prescience, you also have the ability to give your Guardsmen a 5++, which is pretty good considering that your normal guardsman doesn't even get an armor save from a bolter, effectively cutting down your casualties by a third when outside of cover. You can also have fun with Gate moving a blob halfway across the battlefield. Not as good as Prescience since you lack the raw damage output, but still not bad.

Mobile blob should have a libby that can handle challenges, rear blob can take a MotF or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thewarsmith wrote:
Here's my current list for 2250(technically currently 2255)

150 Company Command, regimental standard, vox, lascannon, 2 bodyguards, carapace armor


Platoon #1
65 Platoon Command, 1 heavy flamer, 3 flamer
85 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher, vox
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
105 heavy weapon squad, 3 lascannons

Platoon #2
65 Platoon Command, 1 heavy flamer, 3 flamer
85 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher, vox
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
75 heavy weapon squad, 3 autocannons

Platoon #3
30 Platoon Command
85 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher, vox
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
75 heavy weapon squad, 3 autocannons

130 Hellhound
130 Vendetta
105 3 scout sentinels, multilasers

210 Leman Russ Executioner, heavy bolter sponsons
170 Leman Russ Battle Tank, heavy bolter sponsons
200 Leman Russ Punisher, heavy bolter sponsons

Heavy Flamers aren't worth their points; Hellhound is very YMMV, the scount sentinels aren't stellar; only keep them until you can buy another Vendetta.

Why Missile launchers? Lascannons are far better.

One/two of the blobs needs Meltaguns; your list is short on AV14, and your Executioner has plenty of plasma. Consider plasma sponsons.

Your CCS should ditch the Carapace and Bodyguards and just get a Chimera w/ camo nets.

Stuff one blob and the CCS behind an Aegis with your LRBT, everything else pushes upfield with a good base of fire behind them.

imo the bad is only :

They take up so much space, tanks need large transport cases!!!

Why would I give the rear blob meltaguns? Wouldn't that be better allocated to the front?

This lists weapons/etc. aren't set in stone yet, but it gives a general idea of unit allocations/etc. Plasmas cost 5 more than meltas so it'll be easier to swap them out then other way around.

Here is how the heavy weapon teams are currently allocated. Let me know if you feel it should be different.
9 missile launchers
4 lascannons
3 autocannons

thewarsmith wrote:
Why would I give the rear blob meltaguns? Wouldn't that be better allocated to the front?

This lists weapons/etc. aren't set in stone yet, but it gives a general idea of unit allocations/etc. Plasmas cost 5 more than meltas so it'll be easier to swap them out then other way around.

Here is how the heavy weapon teams are currently allocated. Let me know if you feel it should be different.
9 missile launchers
4 lascannons
3 autocannons

Put the lascannons in your rear blob to get BiD rerolls.

Rear blob gets melta for deep strikers and tank shock, and in general to give them a 12 inch threat bubble of pain. Plasmas work too, but are less of a tank-shock deterrent.

For the front blobs, if your tanks have enough AT, then give them plasma. If not, give them Melta. Easy, but may take a couple games to figure out.

So I reread the codex and realized a couple things.

1). There's no need to add a 3rd platoon, because heavy squads are 0-5 per platoon, meaning, if I'm calculating right, that you can have 14"5 heavy weapons per platoon, points providing. My dumb butt was thinking one squad per platoon.....

2) special weapon squads seem bad, as they cannot join the infantry squads as I thought, meaning they have to run alone. I think I'll pass


A standard SM librarian with force dome seems pretty good. Giving blobs a 5+ invuln seems strong!

thewarsmith wrote:
2) special weapon squads seem bad, as they cannot join the infantry squads as I thought, meaning they have to run alone. I think I'll pass

SWSs can be ok. I used to use one with three flamers as a cheap scoring unit in a vendetta. It also gave the vendetta some anti-infantry punch when needed.

SWSs are something I tend to use defensively. They rightfully are not impressive units, but sitting in a ruin near an objective ready to flame/plasma/melta things is a good budget option (three plasma guns for 70 points? Don't mind if I do). Like most Guard infantry, they need cover or some other hard-to-negate save to be worthwhile. Or numbers, which, of course, SWSs don't have.

Since, unlike PCS, they have no orders, they really can be treated as totally expendable, as they remain dirt cheap. Suicide them off of flyers, leave them in a building to shoot things, or hell, run three demo charges and launch 3 large blast templates on a Paladin formation for gaks and giggles.

They're by no means a great option, but when you've got some points to spare, they're a cheap option to add a little more specialized killy to your army that isn't just lasguns.

Here's the reworked list. With consolidating down to 2 platoons, hence removing 1 vox, downgrading from h. flamer to regular flamer x 2, I shaved 65 points. I put that back into a heavy team w/ 3 mortars for now, or I could put the Company Command in a Chimera for protection.



2245 points

150 Company Command, regimental standard, vox, lascannon, 2 bodyguards, carapace armor

Platoon #1
65 Platoon Command, 4 flamers
85 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher, vox
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
85 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
105 heavy weapon squad, 3 lascannons
60 heavy weapon squad, 3 mortars

Platoon #2
65 Platoon Command, 4 flamers
85 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher, vox
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
80 infantry squad, plasma, missile launcher
75 heavy weapon squad, 3 autocannons
75 heavy weapon squad, 3 autocannons

130 Hellhound
130 Vendetta
105 3 scout sentinels, multilasers

210 Leman Russ Executioner, heavy bolter sponsons
170 Leman Russ Battle Tank, heavy bolter sponsons
200 Leman Russ Punisher, heavy bolter sponsons

thewarsmith wrote:
Here's the reworked list.

First of all it's way too scattered. You've got too many single units, you need to figure out what the best option is and take lots of it. For example, instead of three different Leman Russ types pick the single type that works best and take three of them. At most you might consider a 2-1 split between the two best, but 1-1-1 is rarely effective.

As for specific comments:

1) Turn all of the MLs into LCs. MLs are bad at everything, LCs are at least good at killing vehicles and decent at MEQs.

2) Sentinels are garbage. Glue them under a Valkyrie and call it a Vendetta.

3) Your CCS costs too many points. Drop carapace armor, the bodyguards, and possibly the standard/vox. BiD and FoMT are your best orders, so the CCS is a priority target. Adding defensive upgrades just delays the inevitable by a couple bolter shots, while costing so many points that you could bring an entire second CCS instead.

4) HWS are bad. Mortar HWS are even worse. Never take mortars, they cost points but are terrible at killing anything.

5) The lone Hellhound is a problem. Without any other AV 12 or fast infantry killers you don't have any target saturation and it's always going to die uselessly if your opponent has anything a Hellhound is good at killing. You either need to get another 1-2 Hellhounds and some Chimeras/Medusas/etc or turn it into another Vendetta.

6) Sponsons on the LRBT need to go. You can't ever fire them at full BS, so they aren't worth the points.

7) Sponsons on the Executioner need to become PCs or need to go. HBs have no synergy with the main gun, so no matter what you shoot at you're wasting points.