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 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.

so you are saying that a Daemon Hammer cant ID a nob then either.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.

So you are saying that if I have a GK squad that has a NFW (Hammer) that I smack a vehicle with that there are no other effects attached to it? That is what pg 37 says, and we all know that that is not correct.

It does not change the fact that ID is attached to the hammer, regardless of the source, and is ignored by Kharn because it is a FW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.

so if you were going after a regular marine, and had expended all the force charges for your model, could I claim that your daemonhammer could not ID my marine because it wasn't switched on?

How is the wound not caused by a force weapon? If it just 'doubled the wielder's strength, but didn't come from the weapon' then the AP of the weapon would also always be insignificant in combat.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.

In this case, an unactivated Daemonhammer could not ID a nob, or SM Captain, or Kharn for that matter.

The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

Actually it's the strength of the weapon that inflicts ID. There is no unique property of the wound that inflicts ID by itself.

In other words, Instant Death is a special rule, and wounds cannot have Special Rules - only weapons and units can.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

Exactly.

40k-noob wrote:

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Ok so if the DH can't inflict ID, can't you activate it and the nemesis force weapon cause d3 wounds?

Yes. No rule against that part of it, just ID


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he goes bye bye.

Except the rule doesn't say "Activated" just Force weapon.

"In addition, if Karn suffers an unsaved wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inlict Instant Death on him."

No mention of "Activated" in the rule at any point.

So like if GW had to write every rule explaining everything it would be volumes. Anyone should know that a force weapon can ID when activated it can only ID otherwise if S equal 2T or greater. You are purposedly abusing the rules.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Ok so if the DH can't inflict ID, can't you activate it and the nemesis force weapon cause d3 wounds?

Yes. No rule against that part of it, just ID


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he goes bye bye.

Except the rule doesn't say "Activated" just Force weapon.

"In addition, if Karn suffers an unsaved wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inlict Instant Death on him."

No mention of "Activated" in the rule at any point.

So like if GW had to write every rule explaining everything it would be volumes. Anyone should know that a force weapon can ID when activated it can only ID otherwise if S equal 2T or greater. You are purposedly abusing the rules.

And anyone who goes on YMDC and posts should know it is for the discussion of rules EXACTLY how they are written (RAW) not how we would play them, or how we think they are meant to be played (RAI). No one is "abusing" any rules purposely or otherwise, we are discussing rules and the way they are written. Personally I'd never field Kharn anyways so I've got no pony in this race.

Ya str 8 Kills him outright. Period. Theres no wiggle room here. He's not being insta deathed by force but by sheer str.

Its sad but true. Too much can ID characters in this game. Makes for the upgrades that comewith them and their killing prowess almost a moot point IMHO. Better off taling a cheeper hq and playing it safe.

Lungpickle wrote:
Ya str 8 Kills him outright. Period. Theres no wiggle room here. He's not being insta deathed by force but by sheer str.

Its sad but true. Too much can ID characters in this game. Makes for the upgrades that comewith them and their killing prowess almost a moot point IMHO. Better off taling a cheeper hq and playing it safe.

You missed the part where the source of the S8 hit, a force weapon, is not allowed to ID Kharn. It gives no wiggle room, because it doesn't specify the activated force weapon ability.

Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he gets splatted.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he gets splatted.

So you're telling me a wound from a force weapon can ID Kharn?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon...

Show me where it says that and you'll be correct.
Until then...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he gets splatted.

Also by the same logic Caemons "Blessing of the blood god" would only work against FW activations? Sadly I don't think so.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

false, the models strength stays the same. You cannot use your powerfist to help you against a monoliths portal of exile.

You use the weapon to attack, and those attacks have a strength value(user, user+2, user*2, 4, 6 ect)

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So like if GW had to write every rule explaining everything it would be volumes. Anyone should know that a force weapon can ID when activated it can only ID otherwise if S equal 2T or greater. You are purposedly abusing the rules.

It wouldn't be volumes if they wrote the rules carefully, for example "activating a weapon's Force special rule will not inflict instant death upon Kharn"

It is still a force weapon that is attacking weather it is activated or not, RAW kharn is safe

Weather? Really.

Whether the weather be cold,
Our whether the weather be hot.
We'll weather the weather,
Whatever the weather.
Whether we like it or not.

-anon.

If you allow a double S wound to ID you directly violate the rule. ID is an effect. Force weapons are weapons with the force special rule. You cannot inflict ID with a force weapon as this rule prevents it. Nowhere does it even imply that this only happens from activation, so allowing ANY wound from such a weapon to ID is an illegal move. There's no wriggle room inherent in the wording and this forum only discusses RAW not what we believe RAI to be. If this bothers you, email GW. Simple really.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

That was 5th edition.

In 6th edition the weapon has a strength value that is determined using the model's strength(or is a set value).

Melee Attacks use the Melee weapon, the Melee weapon has a Profile, the profile lists the strength you use(As user, a multiplier of the users strength, a modifier to the users strength, or a set determinate value).

Therefore a NFW Daemon Hammer has 2 methods of causing ID: via activation and the force rule, or Via having a Strength that is double the enemies Toughness(as found in the "Instant death" rule). In both cases it is the Daemon Hammer that is causing the ID result.

Regardless of the activation of the Nemesis Force Wepon. Khan dies due to the dt. Even before the rad granades take effect.

Think of it this way:

You can use the Demon Hammer or a CCW in assault. Now when you attack if you use the CCW you recieve no bonus (unless paired with another CCW). But you still used the weapon. Now if you use the Demon Hammer it automatically doubles your strength (a bonus to using it), therefor you are using a Demon Hammer, so you are also using a FW. The only way to obtain the x2 strength is to actually use the Demon Hammer.

A model attacks Kharn, they make their attacks with one of their available weapons. As you don't have permission to choose to Not use a weapon unless you have more than one, the model would be forced to use the NFH. An unusual force weapon as defined by the GK FAQ, with the added effects of also being a thunder hammer. they hit and wound. Kharn fails.

At this point Blessings kicks in, Regardless of the weapon being "activated" does not change the fact it has the Force special rule and/or is classified as a Force weapon. Up to here nobody can argue.

The Force usr states (paraphrased) if a weapon with this rule inflicts an unsaved wound, the bearer may activate it making a psychic test. If they pass all unsaved wounds have the Instant Death special rule---this is on page 37.

Instant Death (usr) States Unsaved wounds from an attack with this rule automatically inflict instant death, regardless of the victem's toughness.---this is on page 38

Instant Death (effect) tells us "If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double it's toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty."



Now, the effect of the thunder hammer is the same as activating it as a force weapon. No matter what you do, the weapon will always be a force weapon, activated or not. The ONLY way to generate attacks with a high enough strength to ID him without a force weapon is with an ordos xenos inq with rad grenades AND an ordo Hereticus inq with Thunder hammer. every other melee weapon available to the codex capable of doubling Kharn's strength is also a force weapon.

so, The Force usr may grant the Instant Death usr, which in turn grants all removes the double strength requirements of the Instant Death effect.


No matter how you go about it. There is no way to attack without using the hammer, which satisfies all requirements of blessings of the blood god. The strength 8 unsaved wound can not cause the instant death effect through any means available to it.



Now, all that being said, i think nearly everyone here would agree that was not the Intention of the rule, and I'd personally ever try to use this to stop kharn from getting crushed in a game.

It should be mentioned to the rai crowd that the fluff also supports the raw crowd. Kharn is blessed by khorne and kept from dying. He has been resurrected from death as well. And khorne hates those wussy sorcerer force weapons, along with all psychic powers. Khorne won't let wussy mind weapons kill his champion, hence kharns bonuses versus them. In other codex rules you get a 2++ invulnerable save, as khorne doesn't like his champions to lose to sorcerers, especially in close combat.

In this newest version however kharns blessed with what is essentially eternal warrior versus force weapons. If it is any consolation he can't make Feel no pain versus force weapons with the instant death rule.