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 Necrosis wrote:
You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

Right, well I'm sorry Kharn is Immune to ID from FW's not the Force Special rule.
Honestly though it's not that big of a deal, and packing up because of it would probably make me laugh.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neronoxx wrote:

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

Oddly enough it won't stop a Knife either.
Depending on the Vest, large Caliber rounds will rip it to shreds too.
If you have the Kevlar weave, with the kevlar plates it'll stop 1-2 large caliber rounds.
Either way, stab...

 Necrosis wrote:
You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

Oh cool, so you and you're friends don't want to play by the rules? Cool. I don't like playing with cheaters.

But seriously, you can play the game "wrong" (as in by not following very clear and simple rules) all you want, that doesn't change the rule. I bet a bunch of people play it this way. I'm not the only one, i know bill gates would do the same.
He plays Tau.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:Neronoxx wrote:

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

Oddly enough it won't stop a Knife either.
Depending on the Vest, large Caliber rounds will rip it to shreds too.
If you have the Kevlar weave, with the kevlar plates it'll stop 1-2 large caliber rounds.
Either way, stab...

So what are we talking, AP 5 or 4? No saves against melee?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

Right, well I'm sorry Kharn is Immune to ID from FW's not the Force Special rule.
Honestly though it's not that big of a deal, and packing up because of it would probably make me laugh.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neronoxx wrote:

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

Oddly enough it won't stop a Knife either.
Depending on the Vest, large Caliber rounds will rip it to shreds too.
If you have the Kevlar weave, with the kevlar plates it'll stop 1-2 large caliber rounds.
Either way, stab...

And then when you can't find anyone to play with I will laugh at you.

 Necrosis wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

Right, well I'm sorry Kharn is Immune to ID from FW's not the Force Special rule.
Honestly though it's not that big of a deal, and packing up because of it would probably make me laugh.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neronoxx wrote:

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

Oddly enough it won't stop a Knife either.
Depending on the Vest, large Caliber rounds will rip it to shreds too.
If you have the Kevlar weave, with the kevlar plates it'll stop 1-2 large caliber rounds.
Either way, stab...

And then when you can't find anyone to play with I will laugh at you.

because nobody wants to play with a guy who follows the rules!

Neronoxx wrote:

because nobody wants to play with a guy who follows the rules!

I'll be the first to admit I'll stretch RAW from time to time, when you're in a hurry especially.
Might I add never to benefit myself. However if it will hurry my opponent up (lol)
Seriously though that made me pee myself a little bit.

How dare you follow the rules Banishment

Alright you want to rule lawyer then fine.
The attack not the weapon is inflicting instant death.
Yes your using the weapon to increase your strength but the attack not the weapon is causing instant death, for the rule book does not say attack = weapon. Page 16 says that if an attack [doesn't say weapon] Strength is double the Toughness then the model suffers instant death. If you wish to argue other wise show me a page that says weapon = attack.

 Necrosis wrote:
Alright you want to rule lawyer then fine.
The attack not the weapon is inflicting instant death.
Yes your using the weapon to increase your strength but the attack not the weapon is causing instant death, for the rule book does not say attack = weapon. Page 16 says that if an attack [doesn't say weapon] Strength is double the Toughness then the model suffers instant death. If you wish to argue other wise show me a page that says weapon = attack.

You're kidding me? You're not serious are you?
Do you always ignore rules?
Pages 24, 25 and 50. Its right there. Literally.
or even on page 14? "to determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. The number indicated is the minimum result on a D6 to convert the hit into a wound. A value of '-' indicates the target cannot be wounded by the attack."
This is repeated almost verbatim on page 24-25, and page 50 states "If the weapon has a fixed strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the strength of attacks made with that weapon."
It is called an attack. You use the weapon's strength.
Maybe you should try a little bit of research before you start spewing gak. You have to know the rules in order to rule lawyer.
Now can we consider this closed? I believe that all arguments have been made at this point.

Necrosis, if Kharns rule replaced the words 'force weapons' with 'melta weapons' would you let a melta gun ID him? After all, even though Kharns rule says that 'melta weapons' can not instant death him, your 'melta gun' is s8, and still instant deaths Kharn? Would you argue that only a melta weapon with s7 or lower AND the instant death rule would be stopped by Kharn? Because this is not what the rule reads at all!

Do you see the issue? Kharn's rule was written AFTER s10 (on dreads or with hammerhand hammers in the GK book, on BA librarians in the BA book) force weapons existed... and he ignores ID for all force weapons.

EDIT: As an aside to the people that would rage quit a game without 1 ) considering the rule 2 ) considering the fluff 3 ) considering that there is no game balance issue at stake 4 ) consider how your actions make your opponent feel as you disregard their opinion entirely with no discourse and literally make them pack up after going out of their way to play a game with you... I really dont know how you dont get this. Even if the ruling was WRONG the act of rage quitting is completely unacceptable. Act like an adult and 4+ it if you are so offended, or heaven forbid LET IT GO and tell your opponent that you are not a fan of the ruling and want to read up on the rules, fluff, and game balance before the next game.

DevianID wrote:
As an aside to the people that would rage quit a game without 1 ) considering the rule 2 ) considering the fluff 3 ) considering that there is no game balance issue at stake 4 ) consider how your actions make your opponent feel as you disregard their opinion entirely with no discourse and literally make them pack up after going out of their way to play a game with you... I really dont know how you dont get this. Even if the ruling was WRONG the act of rage quitting is completely unacceptable. Act like an adult and 4+ it if you are so offended, or heaven forbid LET IT GO and tell your opponent that you are not a fan of the ruling and want to read up on the rules, fluff, and game balance before the next game.

I struggle to show the same patience as you, but thank you for taking the words out of my very mouth and phrasing them so gentlemanly.

Neronoxx wrote:

 RicBlasko wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

I use Kharn, and have for a long time, and even I think this is silly.
He dies, that's it.
Kharn gets to ignore the ID from a FW. He doesnt from something double his Toughness score.
A FW that doubles his Toughness, would ID him twice, and he gets to ignore one of those..still dead.
I look at it from two ways. One is the style of writing. I learned from years of RPGs and Mini games that an American and English games just have a different way of wording things. American games tend to be more clear on what you can and can not do, to stop abuse. UK games tend to take for granted you wont abuse the game, and will think things out.
The other is a more real world view (oh, I know how people hate that for a 40K game) but I can give someone a bullet proff vest. And it will save their life if they get shot with a handgun. Shoot the same person with a tank, and the vest does nothing. Khan has a vest that works on FW, not on the over welming foce of the blow from something Str 8 or 10, that crushes him.

Wow. Just....wow.
I think its mighty presumptive to call this a rules abuse, seeing as how the only people abusing or making up rules are you people. And no one cares about real world views. They have no hold here. Neither does your understanding of rpg or mini games, because this is literally crystal clear. I honestly do not see the confusion here, and it is maddening to see you people post arguments that achieve literally nothing in relation to progressing this topic.
Not only do you not cite pages, you are not following or understanding the rule. He ignores instant death from force weapons. It does not say that the force weapon must be activated. "Force" weapons are also now their own type of weapon, and these weapons are ALWAYS force weapons. Are you trying to state that Kharns rule doesnt give him immunity to instant death from force weapons? Or are you trying to state that force weapons doubling a toughness don't cause instant death ever? Because either way, RAW says you are wrong.

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

So you assume I was calling this a rule abuse, by stating something about the writting style of RPGs and Mini games over the years? That would be like saying the statement "Radar guns are there to catch people speeding" means "everyone speeds"

As for the hash marks, this is not twitter..and no a bulletproof vest does not stop a bullet. But the question here is not what part of Kharn is stopping the bullet. A bulletproof vest stops a round from a gun.....not if the gun is big enough it might still stop it..but turn the insides into mash potatos. Kharn's rules say Force weapons, it doesnt say he is imune to attacks twice his toughness.

And, again, you are ignoring the rules which state the weapon causes the wound. He is immune to ID from FW, and does not say "only the activated Force power", so it is immune to all.

Also, please avoid multiquotes through editing them

I think I would love to see an opponent pack up and leave over a rule as irrelevant as this is.

The game follows a set of game rules, its not reality. Your questioning if the rule is realistic? How about gigantic flying warp demons. Thats not realistic either but you still play with them.

The rule states he can't be ID from force weapons. Period. No where does it state activated force weapons. This forum is for the understanding of the rules as written. Rules as intended unfortunately mean nothing. You want to play with it killing him (which btw he is easy to kill with only a 5+ inv. anyways!) than you go for it.

I am a +1 for he is immune to the ID from a NDH regardless of the double tough.

I can't believe there's actually five pages debating on a ruling like this when it basically comes down to RAW vs. RAI and who is sided on what for what would be advantageous to them, of which four pages are basically rehashes of the original two points of view as stated succinctly by various posters on page one.

I'd go so far as to feel like WAAC is creeping into this for some players.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't believe there's actually five pages debating on a ruling like this when it basically comes down to RAW vs. RAI and who is sided on what for what would be advantageous to them, of which four pages are basically rehashes of the original two points of view as stated succinctly by various posters on page one.

I'd go so far as to feel like WAAC is creeping into this for some players.

I feel like your a little wrong there.
I am not arguing for myself. I play grey knights.
I am arguing because the rule is simple and everyone and their dog wants to change a rule that has no place being changed. Since when do you change a rule just because you don't like it? Thats called cheating, and i don't like cheaters. That's why i am here.

WAAC IS creeping in here, but it's assuredly not my side...

I play Grey Knights and World Eaters... Doesn't really matter though. Kharn dies to insta gib due to the high S which has nothing to do with being a force weapon.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I play Grey Knights and World Eaters... Doesn't really matter though. Kharn dies to insta gib due to the high S which has nothing to do with being a force weapon.

Wrong. It's the force weapon doubling his stength. Hence ID which he ignores.

Force weapons when activated just need to wound.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Force weapons when activated just need to wound.

Yes. So?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Force weapons when activated just need to wound.

This is true. In other news, the sky is blue, birds fly, and anti-aircraft guns have aircraft in the name.

Try to stay on topic. Thanks.

Well look at it the simple way..He is 100% immune from force weapons ID. Whether the str is double or not it is 100% a force weapon. AKA daemon hammer (force hammer) So it is shennanigans but it is the way it works.

Neronoxx wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
Alright you want to rule lawyer then fine.
The attack not the weapon is inflicting instant death.
Yes your using the weapon to increase your strength but the attack not the weapon is causing instant death, for the rule book does not say attack = weapon. Page 16 says that if an attack [doesn't say weapon] Strength is double the Toughness then the model suffers instant death. If you wish to argue other wise show me a page that says weapon = attack.

You're kidding me? You're not serious are you?
Do you always ignore rules?
Pages 24, 25 and 50. Its right there. Literally.
or even on page 14? "to determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. The number indicated is the minimum result on a D6 to convert the hit into a wound. A value of '-' indicates the target cannot be wounded by the attack."
This is repeated almost verbatim on page 24-25, and page 50 states "If the weapon has a fixed strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the strength of attacks made with that weapon."
It is called an attack. You use the weapon's strength.
Maybe you should try a little bit of research before you start spewing gak. You have to know the rules in order to rule lawyer.
Now can we consider this closed? I believe that all arguments have been made at this point.

Nope. Read the first part of your sentence to determine whether a hit cause a telling amount of damage. It is the hit that is being converted to a wound (the other part of your sentence that you didn't bold. Thus the hit is doing the wound not the weapon, the weapon is only used to determine if an attack wounds or not but doesn't do the wound itself. You don't see a thunder hammer wounding people without it being used by some one or something.

garby42 wrote:
Well look at it the simple way..He is 100% immune from force weapons ID. Whether the str is double or not it is 100% a force weapon. AKA daemon hammer (force hammer) So it is shennanigans but it is the way it works.

We've been trying to say that for 5 pages, and still people disagree. Some can't read it seems.

 Necrosis wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
Alright you want to rule lawyer then fine.
The attack not the weapon is inflicting instant death.
Yes your using the weapon to increase your strength but the attack not the weapon is causing instant death, for the rule book does not say attack = weapon. Page 16 says that if an attack [doesn't say weapon] Strength is double the Toughness then the model suffers instant death. If you wish to argue other wise show me a page that says weapon = attack.

You're kidding me? You're not serious are you?
Do you always ignore rules?
Pages 24, 25 and 50. Its right there. Literally.
or even on page 14? "to determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. The number indicated is the minimum result on a D6 to convert the hit into a wound. A value of '-' indicates the target cannot be wounded by the attack."
This is repeated almost verbatim on page 24-25, and page 50 states "If the weapon has a fixed strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the strength of attacks made with that weapon."
It is called an attack. You use the weapon's strength.
Maybe you should try a little bit of research before you start spewing gak. You have to know the rules in order to rule lawyer.
Now can we consider this closed? I believe that all arguments have been made at this point.

Nope. Read the first part of your sentence to determine whether a hit cause a telling amount of damage. It is the hit that is being converted to a wound (the other part of your sentence that you didn't bold. Thus the hit is doing the wound not the weapon, the weapon is only used to determine if an attack wounds or not but doesn't do the wound itself. You don't see a thunder hammer wounding people without it being used by some one or something.

What cause the wound?
The Force Weapon.

What's Kharn immune to?
ID from Force Weapons

Double strength kills. If it wasn't double strength he wouldn't die by your claim.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength kills. If it wasn't double strength he wouldn't die by your claim.

What is inflicting the double strength wound? Oh look, that would be the Force Weapon that can't ID Khârn.

Yes it can.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Yes it can.

No, it can't, because Kharn has a rule that says "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

It's double S that kills him not force.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

I think most people would play it that way. But for some reason this place attracts TFG mentality.