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Kevlar wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

I think most people would play it that way. But for some reason this place attracts TFG mentality.

That's pretty insulting. In reality, it attracts the "discuss RAW" mentality. You're making the common mistake of assuming that those who discuss RAW also play that way.

It does indeed.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

Wrong, the force weapon doubled his strength. Or have you not read the thread showing you where to find the rules which explicitly state it is the CCW that causes the wound? So a Force weapon, which doubled the users strength, caused the ID wound...which Kharn is immune to , as he is immune to ID from FW

You have no argument, just an assertion that you keep making breaking the tenets of this forum. houserule it if you want, doesnt make it the actual rules.

The rules for the daemonhammer states it is the equivalent to a thunderhammer... Concussive plus double S.

I love that wanting kharn to be able to take more than one wound is waac tfg. I'm sorry you have to get past that 3+/5++ more than once. I'm sure it's super hard with his T4. The rule is clear. If you argue the other way you are in fact tfg as you are trying to bend a rule to make it "feel" better to you. Kharn gets at least 3 5++ rolls against force weapons. Sorry.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules for the daemonhammer states it is the equivalent to a thunderhammer... Concussive plus double S.

So, still not found any rules that state the wound isnt coming from a force weapon?

Still waiting.

(to make it clear - nothing in the quote shows this, it just tells you how to find the additional stats for this particular force weapon.)

Kevlar, if you think following the rule and following the fluff is being tfg, then what do you expect us to follow?

Again, if melta replaced force and read "weapons with the melta rule can not inflict instant death on kharn" would you still be arguing that a melta gun can if him?

That's not the case though and it's a ridiculous comparison.

Because it proves you wrong? Is that why its a bad comparison?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

His rule doesn't say he has Prot from the Force Rule.

He cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

A daemon hammer is always a force weapon and cannot ID Kharn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

I think most people would play it that way. But for some reason this place attracts TFG mentality.

Or the RAW mentality...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not the case though and it's a ridiculous comparison.

Ridiculous is you claiming a Force weapon can ID Kharn. His rule prevents it. His rule doesn't mention the Force special rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules for the daemonhammer states it is the equivalent to a thunderhammer... Concussive plus double S.

So, still not found any rules that state the wound isnt coming from a force weapon?

Still waiting.

(to make it clear - nothing in the quote shows this, it just tells you how to find the additional stats for this particular force weapon.)

The Context of the rule.

The rule is talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID.

Force Weapons Inflict ID based on the defined process described on P. 37

The context of the rule tells us that the force weapon must be activated for this to happen.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules for the daemonhammer states it is the equivalent to a thunderhammer... Concussive plus double S.

So, still not found any rules that state the wound isnt coming from a force weapon?

Still waiting.

(to make it clear - nothing in the quote shows this, it just tells you how to find the additional stats for this particular force weapon.)

The Context of the rule.

The rule is talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID.

Force Weapons Inflict ID based on the defined process described on P. 37

The context of the rule tells us that the force weapon must be activated for this to happen.

Not this time. In context it states may not be ID'd from wounds from "force weapons".
It does not even hint nor specify it only means Protection from the "force" rule.

And how does a Force weapon Inflict ID?

It follows the process on P.37

 DeathReaper wrote:
And how does a Force weapon Inflict ID?

It follows the process on P.37

It can inflict ID in various ways.
One of which being double the (T)
Fairly common with having Rad G'nades in the codex.

If you ignore the context, then that is true.

He is ignoring the context.

Kevlar wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

I think most people would play it that way. But for some reason this place attracts TFG mentality.

TFG guy mentality? We're following a rule, so keep your biased judgements out of this, please and thank you.

And hits cause wounds? Don't attacks cause hits? Lol....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
He is ignoring the context.

What context? Kharns rule has no context related to activated force weapons. It has context related to force weapons and instant death. There is no debating this...

It's being debated which is part of why we have this particular forum. I kind of doubt it will be FAQd so better to flesh it out here in my opinion.

the force weapon is still being used to boost strength to 6-8+ so the weapon cant id kharn because the weapon which is a force weapon is being used to increase the strength in order to cause the id

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's being debated which is part of why we have this particular forum. I kind of doubt it will be FAQd so better to flesh it out here in my opinion.

No i literally meant how can you debate this? The avatar of khaine has a similar rule, making him immune to melta weapons. Why arent any of you debating that rule? Because its solid. Airtight..
So is this one.

the force weapon is actually being used to inflict the wound otherwise the wielder wouldnt get the strength bonus from the weapon in order to inflict id anyway

I invite you to peruse pg. 16 ... on this page you will see that it has a fairly apt description of ID and how it works ( double toughness ) and force abiity on pg 37 references ID on pg 38 which in turn tells you to revisit pg. 16.

The NFW (Deamon hammer) ALREADY has the ID special rule (Double toughness) attached to it. There is no need to activate it, which BTW contextually speaking, is not required in Kharn's special rule.

I defy you to show me where it says that the weapon must be activated in any way shape or form in Kharn's rule .... little hint here ... there is NO such wording.

Did the ID come from a NFW?????? YES, YES it DID. Is it ignored because it is a Force weapon? YES, Yes it is.

This is RAW ... RAI ... as I have said before, I think that it should kill him outright. Khorne seriously dislikes Psykers though so this may stand as such after (if it happens) an FAQ.

i dont see how somebody could be confused by this rule a force weapon simply cannot id him in anyway whther from strength bonus or force power activation

Its a clear case of ambiguous wording. By RAW, Kharn is protected from the double Str wounds causing ID if the enemy is using a Force weapon.

I am pretty sure that RAI was to protect him from ID from the Force weapon being activated and that is HIWPI

Fragile wrote:
Its a clear case of ambiguous wording. By RAW, Kharn is protected from the double Str wounds causing ID if the enemy is using a Force weapon.

I am pretty sure that RAI was to protect him from ID from the Force weapon being activated and that is HIWPI

Eh not sure which way I'd play it tbh. I'd prolly go with the RAW, just for the fact my opponent would be playing Kharn which I always approve of.

To my Nids, hes just food. And nothing there saves him from the Smash.

Fragile wrote:
To my Nids, hes just food. And nothing there saves him from the Smash.

Nor a missile launcher.

Other than his invul

I'm in the camp that Kharn's immunity to being ID by force weapons does mean a Daemon Hammer cannot ID him. It is a force weapon, after all, and there is no mention in his special rule where the ID has to come from other than from force weapons in general. It's pretty clear Kharn finds Daemon Hammers to be lesser than their Thunder Hammer cousins.

SJ

Rai also follows that force weapons of any variety can not instant death him. Khorne HATES psykers, and provides protection in melee from sorcery weapons. Daemons already have eternal warrior so get a 2+ save, kharn instead gets eternal warrior versus force weapons.

In both cases the force weapon does not need to be activated to receive khornes blessing.

you are using the force weapon to deal id with it's strength regardless of whether you choose to use its ability

think of it this way if the rule were to be replaced with meltaguns instead of force weapons would you argue it?
no because you can understand that because a s8 can id t4 it trigger his rule
now go back to force weapons is more than one way to id something that hard for you guys to comprehend?
does it hurt your brains to try and think of 2 ways to id at once?
i honestly dont see anywhere in the rule that you could be confused, he is immune to id from force weapons not from the force activation of force weapons just immune to all types of id from a force weapon and that includes if you choose to use its strength because you are still using the strength of the weapon to deal the id and because it is a force weapon you trigger the rule
a weapon is still a force weapon regardless of whether you choose to activate its force ability
its like saying a chainfist is a powerfist until you shoose to use its armorbane or a meltagun isn't a meltagun its just an op bolter until you decide to use its melta rule or a librarian isn't a psyker he is just some random 2 wound marine unless he is using a psychic power