Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If an Imperial Fist hit him with a power fist he would die outright. But oh if it's a Paladin then no. No way.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If an Imperial Fist hit him with a power fist he would die outright. But oh if it's a Paladin then no. No way.

Good! You finally understand how the rule works!

kaisshau wrote:
Context does not matter for RAW.

Context most definitely matters for RAW, because context can affect the meaning of a given piece of text.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If an Imperial Fist hit him with a power fist he would die outright. But oh if it's a Paladin then no. No way.

Wait, what?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

All of them can. And Hammers don't always ID on double toughness. This is an irrelevant statement.

So the only thing Kharn's rule could possibly be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

Not true. If he was enfeebled and hit by a double hammer hand NF Sword, it'd double him out. Therefore your assumption is incorrect.

It is true, as all force weapons ID based on the P. 37 rules. Not all force weapons have S>=2T, as there are T=6+ creatures out there and the max S=10

All force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37, the same it not true for S>=2T, as all force weapons are not S>=2T of every model.

The context of Kharn's rule is talking about the Force USR on P.37

But it is never going to affect any games I play, so house rule it however you want.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

All of them can. And Hammers don't always ID on double toughness. This is an irrelevant statement.

So the only thing Kharn's rule could possibly be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

Not true. If he was enfeebled and hit by a double hammer hand NF Sword, it'd double him out. Therefore your assumption is incorrect.

It is true, as all force weapons ID based on the P. 37 rules. Not all force weapons have S>=2T, as there are T=6+ creatures out there and the max S=10

All Force weapons can cause ID without activating Force. That's a fact.

All force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37, the same it not true for S>=2T, as all force weapons are not S>=2T of every model.

That's not what you're asserting. According to you, not all Force weapons have the potential to ID based on S>=2xT. That's demonstrably false.

The context of Kharn's rule is talking about the Force USR on P.37

If it said the Force special rule, you'd be correct. It doesn't. You're not.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

All of them can. And Hammers don't always ID on double toughness. This is an irrelevant statement.

So the only thing Kharn's rule could possibly be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

Not true. If he was enfeebled and hit by a double hammer hand NF Sword, it'd double him out. Therefore your assumption is incorrect.

It is true, as all force weapons ID based on the P. 37 rules. Not all force weapons have S>=2T, as there are T=6+ creatures out there and the max S=10

All force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37, the same it not true for S>=2T, as all force weapons are not S>=2T of every model.

The context of Kharn's rule is talking about the Force USR on P.37

But it is never going to affect any games I play, so house rule it however you want.

I refuse to houserule things where RAW is clear-cut, so Kharn will never be IDed by my force weapons. Just like his rule says.

rigeld2 wrote:
All Force weapons can cause ID without activating Force. That's a fact.

But All Force weapons do not always cause ID without activating Force.
your statement is an irrelevant statement.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not what you're asserting. According to you, not all Force weapons have the potential to ID based on S>=2xT. That's demonstrably false.

That is not what I am saying at all, I am saying that all force weapons are not always S>=2T again that is irrelevant because the rule says
"...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

How do force weapons inflict ID? they can through S>=2T, but they always do through the Force USR (When activated), as all force weapons are not always S>=2T.

rigeld2 wrote:
If it said the Force special rule, you'd be correct. It doesn't. You're not.

It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

Yes, and no other way for you to continually be wrong.

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons. SOME force weapons can ID him through Strength, and SOME can ID him if they are activated. There is NO REQUIREMENT, anywhere in his rule, that the FW has to *always* be capable of IDing Kharne - just that, if it would do, it does not

The rule is 100% absolutely clear cut: the weapon causes a wound that causes ID? No ID if that weapon is a FW

There is no other way to state it - you are literally ignoring the written rule in favour of a context that does not exist, at all.

Im sure this will be FAQed. The RAW are clear. No arguing about that. Houseruling is not important here. If you house rule it (like we did) thats fine but not in the closest relevant to this discussion.

We assume that he is meant to die. Thats why we play it that way in our club. If i would play somewhere else i would accept their houseruling in this case. Knowing this particular rules dabate is enough to talk about this before a game GK vs CSM and decide how to play in advance. Not that hard to do.

As i said im quite sure this will be faq'ed. As a gk player i fear the RAW are what GW was intending tbh.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

Yet while you argue that a possible context exists that kharns rule only applies to force activation, we have shown there is greater context that force weapon activation doesn't matter.
You continually ignore the fluff on the matter, as well as the history of rules in chaos space marine books as well as daemon books.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

I don't see the context in the least. It talks about any wound from a FW not being able to ID Kharn.
So the context is simply (Kharn cannot be ID'd by a FW regardless of the reason of ID)

you people are making up text that somehow restates the rule to say he cannot be id from from the force special rule

Nowhere does it say that he cannot be id from the force special rule in specific it simply mentions all force weapons whether it be from the force weapons force activation or from its double T

are you using the weapon to deal the wound?
yes
did the weapon cause id in any way?
yes
is the weapon a force weapon?
yes
was the weapon responsible/the reason for the id as in if it weren't for the force weapon it wouldn't id?
yes
is kharn immune to id from a force weapon?
yes
is he immune to id from a force weapon?
yes
is he immune to id from a force weapon?
yes
is he immune to id from a force weapon?
yes
does the rule state how the force weapon has to deal id?
no
so are all of your arguments against this rule invalid?
yes
are most of these arguments just making up text or assuming a rai pov?
yes

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

No. There is no context to ignore. All it says is that Khârn is immune to ID from Force Weapons. That's all. Which, funnily enough, means Khârn can't suffer ID from a Force Weapon. Ever.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

force weapons can also id things by being twice the t of a model for example a libby with a force sword swings at some grots
the grots would be id from the fact that the libby is using a s4 weapon against a t2 model

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

They ALSO ID things by conferring a strength to the attack that can be high eniugh to cause ID. That is the "weapon" part of Force Weapon doing that.

You are making up a context that simply isnt there.

LOL
Theres no need to faq this. As much as it pains me to say it the people who have stated that force is not ID kharn its the ID from str over toughness then he is dead meat. Period since you activate force on an unsaved wound and he was smashed due to str vs toughness force is not needed nor relevant for this argument.
The OP's arguments are silly simply because you refuse to see the futility of your argument when the listed text is right on his entry in the CSM codex. Next time you play grey knights get kharn into a challenge with someone and hope he's not the one with a hammer.
str vs toughness, and force are 2 ways in which you can be instakilled. They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

its still funny reading the arguments that are for the latter IMHO. Like rowwing a boat upstream with a broke oar.

Lungpickle wrote:
They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

This was extremely painful for me to read, but I think this is the meat of your argument.

It is quite wrong.

While silly, Kharn's rule encompasses force weapons regardless of their other qualities.

Would you argue that khorn daemons with Blessings of the Blood God would not get their 2+ invulnerable save from force weapons because they are not activated? I should hope not, because a force weapon is intrinsically a force weapon. It is unable to choose not to be a force weapon, and if that is ever a down side, you'll just have to deal with it.

Lungpickle wrote:
LOL
Theres no need to faq this. As much as it pains me to say it the people who have stated that force is not ID kharn its the ID from str over toughness then he is dead meat. Period since you activate force on an unsaved wound and he was smashed due to str vs toughness force is not needed nor relevant for this argument.
The OP's arguments are silly simply because you refuse to see the futility of your argument when the listed text is right on his entry in the CSM codex. Next time you play grey knights get kharn into a challenge with someone and hope he's not the one with a hammer.
str vs toughness, and force are 2 ways in which you can be instakilled. They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

its still funny reading the arguments that are for the latter IMHO. Like rowwing a boat upstream with a broke oar.

This is where you and Death are wrong .... the rule says that if a FW (any type btw) causes an unsaved wound on Kharn it can not ID him ....Death keeps bringing up pg 37 ... I invited him to READ pg. 37 of the BRB and it references pg 38 ... which in turn references pg 16 dealing with instant death. A FW CAN use a warp charge to cause ID if the model has an unsaved wound from a FW. However, if ID is already attached to the weapon (double toughness as per pg 37, 38, and 16) then there is no need to activate the FW.

Kharn's rule IGNORES all ID from FW. There is no 'context' stating that it must be 'activated' ..... HE JUST IGNORES THEM. Period.

Lungpickle wrote:
They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

Thats the probelm. It doesnt say is specifically only covers one. It pretty clear cut. Kharne does NOT suffer instant death by wounds caused from force weapons. This means ANY WOUNDS. Nowhere does it state activated force weapons. Is the hammer casuing the wond? Yes, can it ID him 2 different ways? Yes, So he ignores BOTH as that weapon can not inflict a wound that cause ID to him.

I dont see any more arguments about this. He can not be killed by it. RAW RAW RAW. If you want to interpret it the other way go ahead but your incorrect.

 Happyjew wrote:
On a related note. Adamantine mantle (C:BT) says that the model does not suffer ID from a weapon whose strength is at least 2x toughness. I'm assuming if hit with a Daemon Hammer, he'd be immune to ID from Force activation?

Well adamantine mantle simply states you are immune to instant death from str x2 toughness. While a daemon hammer couldn't kill you, the force activation could, since activating the force weapon makes the wounds instant death, not double toughness or what have you.

Lungpickle - then prove that it only covers the Force rule. Some actual rules.

The rest of your post is meaningless as you have asserted an opinion and failed to actually back it up.

It covers ID caused by a FW -and a FW can cause ID in two ways. Stating it only negates one way, without providng a single rule, is useless.

soots wrote:
why cant he be ID? if hes T4 or T3 with rad grenades, and is hit by a Daemonhammer at str 8 or 10 with hammerhand, and he fails his inv, hes dead.

This is how Kharn dies to my crudbum guardian defenders with their single missile launcher per squad.

Ok, lets go with your whole he carnt be ID but your not using the context. *which isnt even right in itself* Lets here see you say/type that Kharn carnt be ID by ANY force weapon because of the blessed of the blood god rule.

Or you can say all that and say, but i wont follow that because i believe it might be referencing something it might not even be referencing, lets use this as the catalyst so i can be TFG and bend the rules so my overpowered 2 wound termie can instant kill your hq while striking at I order. Yeah, dont sound right does it?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Ok, lets go with your whole he carnt be ID but your not using the context. *which isnt even right in itself* Lets here see you say/type that Kharn carnt be ID by ANY force weapon because of the blessed of the blood god rule.

Or you can say all that and say, but i wont follow that because i believe it might be referencing something it might not even be referencing, lets use this as the catalyst so i can be TFG and bend the rules so my overpowered 2 wound termie can instant kill your hq while striking at I order. Yeah, dont sound right does it?

WAT.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Ok, lets go with your whole he carnt be ID but your not using the context. *which isnt even right in itself* Lets here see you say/type that Kharn carnt be ID by ANY force weapon because of the blessed of the blood god rule.

Or you can say all that and say, but i wont follow that because i believe it might be referencing something it might not even be referencing, lets use this as the catalyst so i can be TFG and bend the rules so my overpowered 2 wound termie can instant kill your hq while striking at I order. Yeah, dont sound right does it?

And the English language died just a litttle because of this. I ... I mean .... I .... not sure .... does not compute ... What is this?

OK, not the feed back i was hoping for on my first post, lets try again.

You carn't just ignore rules that are clearly stated because its not how you think they arn't intended to do something. Nor is it appropriate for you to rage quit when you dont get your way, or call your opponent a power gamers or rule abuser.

It clearly stats he is immune to ID caused by force weapons.

The NDH is a force weapon and if you choose to use it for the effects (x2 strength, force, concussive, AP) then Kharn is immune to ANY instant death coursed by it. Alternitivily you can granade him down to T3, doublehammer and throw your swords away ( do you HAVE to use your weapon?) and beat him to a pulp anyway, but he will get an armour save.

If its my spelling/grammer....C'mon guys, your better then that....i hope.

But we ccan all agree....We need an FAQ.

I agree with lungpickle - and I hope GW will address this. The good news is Kharn will never lose a challenge to a daemonhammer.