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We British don't care. When Germany goes down is when gak hits fan.

You don't speak for me.

 phantommaster wrote:
We British don't care. When Germany goes down is when gak hits fan.

What do you mean? o.O

Are the Germans paying more into the EU?

 Albatross wrote:
You don't speak for me.

Glad to see someone caught that in your country. I was in Britain recently and had a nice long discussion with some lads in Oxford about the UK and its relationship with the EU. We also had a nice conversation regarding the Government and Her Majesty. I always enjoy my time in Britain.

 JEB_Stuart wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
You don't speak for me.

Glad to see someone caught that in your country. I was in Britain recently and had a nice long discussion with some lads in Oxford about the UK and its relationship with the EU. We also had a nice conversation regarding the Government and Her Majesty. I always enjoy my time in Britain.

As luck would have it, I was in Nashville recently and had a great time. Did you stay in Oxford mainly?

 Albatross wrote:
As luck would have it, I was in Nashville recently and had a great time. Did you stay in Oxford mainly?

In Britain I was mainly in Southern England (Oxford, Salisbury, London, Canterbury, etc.). Also went to Dublin, and Oktoberfest in München. I really should have planned ahead and tried to see about grabbing a drink, or seven, with you and Matt. I am sure y'all are even more entertaining in real life then you are on Dakka Dakka.

Well... the house is passing two bills?

1) http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20121217/BILLS-112hr-PIH-SpndRduc2012.pdf
Replaces the automatic sequestration cuts with alternative spending cuts and reforms to avoid the defense cuts in the original sequester. It also cuts the Obamacare slush fund, the failed HAMP mortgage reform effort, and reforms food stamps and the child refundable tax credit. The bill reduces the deficit by an additional $242 billion over the original sequester.

2http://www.rules.house.gov/Media/file/PDF_112_2/LegislativeText/BILLS-112hjres66-HAmdt2.pdf
The 'Plan B'... doesn't anyone think this name is ironic???
It permanently extends current tax rates for everyone making less than $1 million.
It has a permanent AMT fix.

So... there's two plans. The Senate can take it, debate it, tweak it if necessary if they choose to engage in this process. If they don't, what this does is it puts the Democrats (and Obama) on the hook if taxes rise on those 99.81% of Americans (those making less than $1 million/yr).

Don't worry, the MsM will still blame the Republican House.

 whembly wrote:
Well... the house is passing two bills?

1) http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20121217/BILLS-112hr-PIH-SpndRduc2012.pdf
Replaces the automatic sequestration cuts with alternative spending cuts and reforms to avoid the defense cuts in the original sequester. It also cuts the Obamacare slush fund, the failed HAMP mortgage reform effort, and reforms food stamps and the child refundable tax credit. The bill reduces the deficit by an additional $242 billion over the original sequester.

We'll call this the "evil bastard option made to make the other one look nice and reasonable by comparison". Always got to respect people sticking to their principles- namely that that Jesus guy was full of crap, and we should certainly prioritize the military over taking care of poor and struggling middle-class people.

 whembly wrote:

2http://www.rules.house.gov/Media/file/PDF_112_2/LegislativeText/BILLS-112hjres66-HAmdt2.pdf
The 'Plan B'... doesn't anyone think this name is ironic???
It permanently extends current tax rates for everyone making less than $1 million.
It has a permanent AMT fix.

So... there's two plans. The Senate can take it, debate it, tweak it if necessary if they choose to engage in this process. If they don't, what this does is it puts the Democrats (and Obama) on the hook if taxes rise on those 99.81% of Americans (those making less than $1 million/yr).

Yep, a pretty transparent approach to force a compromise by saying "You have two options- water down the policy you specifically advocated all during the campaign and on which you were re-elected, raising taxes on people making over $250k a year, OR take money away from people on food stamps, and who need help with child care and mortage reform."

Classy.

Its all good. Its another push in the negotiation.

Frankly if we didn't have to watch the sausage being made (like in the good old days) we'd be much happier about the situation.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Well... the house is passing two bills?

1) http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20121217/BILLS-112hr-PIH-SpndRduc2012.pdf
Replaces the automatic sequestration cuts with alternative spending cuts and reforms to avoid the defense cuts in the original sequester. It also cuts the Obamacare slush fund, the failed HAMP mortgage reform effort, and reforms food stamps and the child refundable tax credit. The bill reduces the deficit by an additional $242 billion over the original sequester.

We'll call this the "evil bastard option made to make the other one look nice and reasonable by comparison". Always got to respect people sticking to their principles- namely that that Jesus guy was full of crap, and we should certainly prioritize the military over taking care of poor and struggling middle-class people.

 whembly wrote:

2http://www.rules.house.gov/Media/file/PDF_112_2/LegislativeText/BILLS-112hjres66-HAmdt2.pdf
The 'Plan B'... doesn't anyone think this name is ironic???
It permanently extends current tax rates for everyone making less than $1 million.
It has a permanent AMT fix.

So... there's two plans. The Senate can take it, debate it, tweak it if necessary if they choose to engage in this process. If they don't, what this does is it puts the Democrats (and Obama) on the hook if taxes rise on those 99.81% of Americans (those making less than $1 million/yr).

Yep, a pretty transparent approach to force a compromise by saying "You have two options- water down the policy you specifically advocated all during the campaign and on which you were re-elected, raising taxes on people making over $250k a year, OR take money away from people on food stamps, and who need help with child care and mortage reform."

Classy.

I get what you're saying... but there's a process.

The Senate can now take these bills and tweak it like they always do. Lately... it's been... No, we won't participate in this process.

Which to me, seems like the Democrats (and Obama) WANTS the taxs cut to expire AND the sequestration to occur.

*shrugs* We did okay prior to the Bush's tax cut, so... this whole "fiscal cliff" is hysteria in my opinion.

I agree that it's hysteria. Even if it hits, it's not going to be anything like watching the Dow freefall into losing half its value like we saw four years ago. Now THAT was exciting and scary.

The Fiscal cliff isn't what really bothers me about politics it is the sever polarity the parties have and the unwillingness by both sides to compromise without a large drawn out media frenzy while trying to make the other guy look like bad. It's almost akin to a circus in many ways with all of the clowns in Washington on both sides of the isle.

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
The Fiscal cliff isn't what really bothers me about politics it is the sever polarity the parties have and the unwillingness by both sides to compromise without a large drawn out media frenzy while trying to make the other guy look like bad. It's almost akin to a circus in many ways with all of the clowns in Washington on both sides of the isle.

That we can agree on.

You'd like it better if it really was an "isle", rather than an "aisle", because if they were stranded on an isle you could bomb* it more easily with less civilian collateral damage.

(*even if just with stink bombs).

 azazel the cat wrote:

Breotan wrote:

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
Why the hell would it be their job to stop progress?

Why is it only progress when it is the Democrats' agenda?

It probably has something to do with the fact that the very definition of conservatism is basically an antonym of progress.

con·ser·va·tism (kn-sûrv-tzm)
n.
1. The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order

prog·ress (prgrs, -rs, prgrs)
n.
1. Movement, as toward a goal; advance

But "tax and spend" is the existing or traditional order for the government. Nice try, though.

 whembly wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
We British don't care. When Germany goes down is when gak hits fan.

What do you mean? o.O

Are the Germans paying more into the EU?

Germany is the main country keeping the EU up, it's easily the strongest currently, but the bank are predicting it will fall into heavy recession within a few years.

 phantommaster wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
We British don't care. When Germany goes down is when gak hits fan.

What do you mean? o.O

Are the Germans paying more into the EU?

Germany is the main country keeping the EU up, it's easily the strongest currently, but the bank are predicting it will fall into heavy recession within a few years.

O...

So, when Germany crash... the EU goes down? Why not austerity, ala Greece? Or, is this a political issue thats giving those who opposes the EU to go back to their unique currency?

 whembly wrote:
So, when Germany crash... the EU goes down? Why not austerity, ala Greece? Or, is this a political issue thats giving those who opposes the EU to go back to their unique currency?

Austerity won't work because the problem isn't bloated social programs as much as it is with Germany performing bailouts and loans to other European countries like... well, Greece.

Of course the senate has already passed a bill that repeals the tax increases on the first $250,000 of income. They passed it quite a while ago. That's the bill Rep. Cole wanted to vote on when he was shut down by his party.

But only in partisan wonderland does something like this make sense:

"I know the senate already passed a bill that protects 98% of Americans. But I am going to push for another 0.5% to be protected. And if you don't vote for the 0.5% that I care about then it is your fault that everybody pays more. That's right, I am holding 98% hostage for the 0.5% and pretend that this is your fault!"

You would think they would have learned from the debt ceiling mess, it's not like they didn't loose seats in both houses by catering to the Tea Party.

 d-usa wrote:
Of course the senate has already passed a bill that repeals the tax increases on the first $250,000 of income. They passed it quite a while ago. That's the bill Rep. Cole wanted to vote on when he was shut down by his party.

Do you have a source that it was passed? I thought it was only a proposal...

 JEB_Stuart wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
As luck would have it, I was in Nashville recently and had a great time. Did you stay in Oxford mainly?

In Britain I was mainly in Southern England (Oxford, Salisbury, London, Canterbury, etc.). Also went to Dublin, and Oktoberfest in München. I really should have planned ahead and tried to see about grabbing a drink, or seven, with you and Matt. I am sure y'all are even more entertaining in real life then you are on Dakka Dakka.

We are, but then that wouldn't take much!

Matty's actually Stateside at the moment. He goes there quite a bit, what with his missus being American. He's in California, I believe.

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Of course the senate has already passed a bill that repeals the tax increases on the first $250,000 of income. They passed it quite a while ago. That's the bill Rep. Cole wanted to vote on when he was shut down by his party.

Do you have a source that it was passed? I thought it was only a proposal...

It was passed 5 months ago.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2012/0725/Middle-class-tax-cut-extension-passes-Senate-Policy-or-politics

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Of course the senate has already passed a bill that repeals the tax increases on the first $250,000 of income. They passed it quite a while ago. That's the bill Rep. Cole wanted to vote on when he was shut down by his party.

Do you have a source that it was passed? I thought it was only a proposal...

It was passed 5 months ago.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2012/0725/Middle-class-tax-cut-extension-passes-Senate-Policy-or-politics

Oh.. that one. Now I remember. Thanks.

In the meantime, Boehner is starting to look pretty silly:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/20/politics/fiscal-cliff/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Washington (CNN) -- House Speaker John Boehner's proposal to avert the looming fiscal cliff's automatic tax increases has failed to get enough Republican support, throwing yet another monkey wrench into the contentious debate.

Boehner said earlier Thursday that he was confident that his so-called Plan B -- which would extend tax cuts that are set to expire at year's end for most people while allowing rates to increase to 1990s levels on income over $1 million -- would pass the House, and in the process put pressure on President Barack Obama and the Democratic-controlled Senate. But that gambit seemed in doubt Thursday, as Republican leaders struggled to get all their members to sign on, knowing the chamber's Democrats oppose it.

Many Republicans refuse to stop fiddling while our literal money limit is reached, causing a chain reaction in the government and private sector that would cause significant harm to everyone involved.

The U.S. has never failed to meet its debt obligations. The battle over raising the debt limit in August 2011 went right to the last minute before a compromise was reached.

And once again financial journalism proves why it's so well regarded. The US actually failed to make timely payments on bonds in 1979. I mean, fething hell, surely you can get an intern to check something like that before posting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats their job. Its that loyal opposition thing.

Loyal opposition means holding the government to account to ensure the best for the country overall. It doesn't mean being openly obstructionist for the sake of partisan gain.

 sebster wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats their job. Its that loyal opposition thing.

Loyal opposition means holding the government to account to ensure the best for the country overall. It doesn't mean being openly obstructionist for the sake of partisan gain.

Hard to tell. Gonna go consult the political pundits tomorrow about who is right on the morning news shows.

This entire fiasco is nauseating. If I were to act like this in my career, I would be fired.

Really, the entire congress needs to say the following out loud on TV;

Raising taxes to 100% of income and increase government spending will lead to endless job growth
Lowering taxes to 0% will lead to infinite tax revenue

Then, when every American pauses and thinks of the logical absurdity of both claims--maybe we'll realize it's not an argument from extreme polarity and understand compromise is what makes a statesmen.

I think we probably need to get away from pretending that just spamming bills in one house is a genuine attempt at negotiation. That said, the Republicans are making a much better effort at reaching a sensible middle ground this time around, from what I've seen they've been as constructive as the Democrats. We shouldn't ignore that dumping Grover's pledge was a big deal.

 JEB_Stuart wrote:
Well we don't have a Federal sales tax, but most states do. Most people get double dipped on income tax as states and the Feds do that. Thankfully in Texas there is no state income tax though

That isn't really what double taxation means. To really be double taxation, it'd have to be a tax levied on the same form twice. So taxing income as corporations tax, and then taxing that income again as dividends is double taxation. But taxing something as income tax, and then taking further tax as sales tax isn't.