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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They had someone come in a small while ago, they were QUICKLY ran off by the likes of this community with heavy vitriol, some of which is posting in this thread now.

Correction: A hiring agency working for GW posted here looking for employees. No actual GW employees were harmed in the making of this post.


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 SurfPenguin wrote:
OP, let me ask you a simple question: If you were running a company, would you want a phone line where, no matter when you picked it up any hour of the day you got nothing other than an endless string of insults, obscenities, and screaming demands that you essentially give your product away for free?

You wouldn't?

Well, now you know why GW doesn't have a community representative.

Seriously, if 'the community' wants GW to listen to them, then said 'community' had better start saying something other than "You stupid who don't know we don't give a damn about your wellbeing as a company, give us everything we want, right now, for free!"

The problem with this line of thought is that it simply isn't what having a community rep is for. Sure, you have to listen to a few posts complaining about price rises. However, without responding to these complaints you merely engender ill will towards your company, making it seem that the complaints are not only justified, but you don't give a gak about what your customers think. By engaging your fanbase, you can spell out WHY you're increasing prices and quell dissent. Look at what Privateer did with the price rise they did a few years back: They started with a nice graph of rising metal prices, talked about exploring alternate materials while joking about having depleted the world's tin supply as promised, and apologized for the necessity of the move. I'm not sure I saw a single complaint about the hike on any of the boards I frequent. THAT is how you manage a community, not simply ignoring its existence.

vedreag wrote:

 Cruentus wrote:
It wasn't worth the time, headache, and investment (salary, forums, IT, whatever) to keep doing it, especially c considering what GWs forum became. I don't blame them.

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what did the GW forums turn into?

Games Workshop would ban anyone who bashed the company or it's pricing, this happened allot, along with lots of criticism on several other subjects. GW realised that this wouldn't end and closed the forum so they didn't have to read ether "YOUR PRICES ARE TOO HIGH!" or "WHITE DWARF SUCKS!".

They have one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

My perspective: With people like Testify and Zwei chugging the GW Kool Aid, they don't need their own representatives here.

Yet again, I am not a GW fan boy, I'm a grown-up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Laughing Man wrote:

The problem with this line of thought is that it simply isn't what having a community rep is for. Sure, you have to listen to a few posts complaining about price rises. However, without responding to these complaints you merely engender ill will towards your company, making it seem that the complaints are not only justified, but you don't give a gak about what your customers think. By engaging your fanbase, you can spell out WHY you're increasing prices and quell dissent. Look at what Privateer did with the price rise they did a few years back: They started with a nice graph of rising metal prices, talked about exploring alternate materials while joking about having depleted the world's tin supply as promised, and apologized for the necessity of the move. I'm not sure I saw a single complaint about the hike on any of the boards I frequent. THAT is how you manage a community, not simply ignoring its existence.

The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread. Except poor moderation meant that they were by and large unchecked, so the decent folk like myself left, leaving it as an ocean of GW hate with a few rocky atolls of reasonable folk.

I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?

 Peregrine wrote:


Conclusion: the sooner GW dies and gets bought by WOTC the better.

Oh right, WotC which is just as bad in "lets milk the customer base dry" -attitude than GW. Yeah, that'd be great.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Testify wrote:

I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?

Yeah, this is one thing I side with GW. What would be a point having "official forum"? They only attract worst fanboys and most profilic haters and reasonable discussion is impossible. Official forums always suck, without exception.

GW does not care at all about its consumer base. They give a flying shi....taki mushroom about what their customers want.

What would be the point of a community rep then?

inb4 fanboys USING DEROGATORY NICKNAMES OR APPELATIONS FOR OTHER POSTERS IS NOT NECESSARY OR APPROPRIATE. -Mannahnin stating that GW cares a lot and the prices we pay are just fair for the amazing fanservice GW offers.

/e: Darn.

WarOne wrote:There will be a day when GW will have to account to the public, but that is not a day long coming when they continue to be successful and their IP strong.

I see what you did there, but perhaps it was a freudian slip?

daedalus wrote:

Peregrine wrote:Because GW's management is a bunch of incompetent idiots who are afraid to do anything that might in...

Ahh, there it is: my moment of zen.

Hey come on, it's taken years of repeatedly 'not giving a gak' by GW for the community on Dakka to reach this level of respect for the company. Without going into a long-winded (and now very tedious) repeat about the continual price rises, Finecast, shops shrinking, RoW embargo etc. etc. just see the Monty Python 'Fish slapping dance' vid to see how GW has gradually, through great effort, whittled down the resilience of its long-term fan base.

snooggums wrote:I nominate Matt Ward for community rep!

To be honest, it would have been nice for their to be anyone.

Howard Treesong's post early in the thread has it - most of GW's customers are newbies who don't hang around for long, and the community here has long since taken on the mantle of an angry mob pounding unanswered at the gates of the Citadel.

According to Robin Cruddace, cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They had someone come in a small while ago, they were QUICKLY ran off by the likes of this community with heavy vitriol, some of which is posting in this thread now.

I believe that he is not actually a part of GW but part of a recruitment firm they have taken on to advertise jobs going in their stores (of which there are many due to high staff turn over rates )


Edit: Didn't see the second page of the thread! Whoops!


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 Testify wrote:
The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread. Except poor moderation meant that they were by and large unchecked, so the decent folk like myself left, leaving it as an ocean of GW hate with a few rocky atolls of reasonable folk.

I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?

Infinity have a massive forum for their game, running in several languages. I have to admit not going on there very often, but it is all very reasonable and civil, perhaps because the company is heavily involved in the community and reacts to feedback and suggestions.

I don't play any of PP's games, but they have a rather large and active forum and as mentioned in this thread, they have an active hand in engaging with their customers/fans.

So, two reasonably large games companies both manage to run their own forums without a problem

 Testify wrote:

The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread.

Actually it was very hard to have a rational discussion on those boards for 2 reasons. It had a horrifically bad layout and any post which didn't tow the party line was quickly deleted. It was a worthy goal but badly run and GW obviously didn't like the freedom that it allowed users so they ultimately pulled the plug.

The GW online community isn't actually all that bad (have a look at the Blizzard forums for an example of a bad community) and there are a lot of good things that could be learned from listening to it. Dismissing it out of hand simply because people may say things that you don't like is rank stupidity. A good company would actively listen to its customers and would act to make them as happy as it can while maintaining its own goals. GW simply doesn't listen which has allowed easily fixable issues to fester for years.

Perhaps if they did listen they wouldn't have such a bad reputation within the wargaming community?

Becuz dey iz G-dub N gak N dey don' give a gak bout dem costumerz becuz dey don give uz free gak.

[Edited by Moderator]

 mattyrm wrote:
Just sit and read the hate and rage on this board, there is your answer!

The poor fether who worked for GW in that role would get more abuse than a registered sex offender with leprosy.

Agreed, When I sometimes read threads here on Dakka I feel ashamed to have joined Dakka. Because there are so many sulphuric and trollish people in this hobby that such a job would be suicidal.

 Trondheim wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Just sit and read the hate and rage on this board, there is your answer!

The poor fether who worked for GW in that role would get more abuse than a registered sex offender with leprosy.

Agreed, When I sometimes read threads here on Dakka I feel ashamed to have joined Dakka. Because there are so many sulphuric and trollish people in this hobby that such a job would be suicidal.

Every community, country, region, belief and following has trolls and donkey caves. That doesn't mean you don't reach out to your target market for fear of trolls.

I am barely even remotely a fan of GW but I wish to point out a couple of things that people seem to have either missed or overlooked.

Once upon a time GW did have its very own internet forum, however it suffered from poor design choice and management. But it still had thousands of people posting on it, surprisingly civil at that! Then GW shut it down, citing that there was better forums out there.

GW also had its own version of PP's Press Gangers, IIRC they were called Outriders and were based mainly in Northern Europe where GW stores was non-existent. Only mention of them I've ever seen was in the 2004 Chapter Approved book.

TBH I believe GW needs to ditch its shareholders and cease being a publicly traded company, then step back and take a serious look at its operations.

"Why does GW not have a community representative?"

Having hundreds of stores worldwide and counting providing free help and advise not enough? Sure some places dont have stores but the number is growing and what exactly would they do other than cost GW lots of money, that stores or information online can not do that would justify that cost?

I dropped my GIJoe collection for 40K. Look at HissTank.com. Even though its ran by a bunch of douchebags, THAT is an outstanding example of product promotion and a community. Joe has been around for ages, since he was a doll, into the 80s when Hasbro practically owned the action figure market with an absurd amount of product, into the 90s and early 2000s with lackluster product, and from late 2000s up to today, with the 25th Anniversary line, the horrible RoC movie, and the upcoming 3D movie.

Joe has had its ups and downs, but they pay attention to the fans. It is not the market dominator it used to be in the 80s but when 30-something year olds clamor for a certain figure, Hasbro listens and we got it. They would display new figures and vehicles months ahead of time to build interest, and the day they were released retail and online stores sold out immediately.

You may say sure, Hasbro has other brands to fall back on (Transformers, My Little Pedo, etc), but for every succesful line they carry there were ten duds. How do you think they got that way? By taking risks. Sure, these toys/cartoons are marketed to your average child who will watch Saturday morning cartoons and smash an Optimus and Snake Eyes around until they break. 40K appeals to the other demographic; the nerds, the geeks, the freaks, the adults who just need a fun hobby. It moves expensive models, books, terrains, novels, and supplies. It is self sustaining but it has room to grow.

How do you make something so blatantly catagorized as "nerdy" into something commonplace? Marketing. There was a time when sitting around playing DooM or Quake was a totally geeky thing to do. Now look at CoD, Halo, or GoW. Still lame, but socially acceptable and each comes with a whole world of merch. Something needs to be done to make that swing from "neckbeards huddled in a game shop, dont go in there!" to "make some spacemen in your free time, then have some friends over and roll some dice over beers". Nowadays video games are an awesome way to push the product (Space Marine is why Im here), but so is getting a movie out there, and the imagery. Lets face it; a Space Marine looks badass. Your average gamer sees that and wants to know more. Oh, its tabletop? Forget that. Its taboo. You find ways to make it socially acceptable. THAT is how you expand a business. Identify your demographic, and find how to expand to a new demographic while keeping the original fanbase.

The Warhammer franchise has a ridiculous amount of potential. The backstory, the imagery, the hobby, the social interaction. Ive only been into it for a year but I feel like its a genre that is on the brink of something bigger but it is being held back. With the right push it could be a household name. Expand the business, get better video game licenses, keep people busy with new games, move merch to advertise, keep fans up to date with new releases, properly update armies in a timely fashion and update during the downtime with FAQs including new units/rules to keep people interested in buying. Get movies and other media going to attract new customers. Lower prices (I had a friend who is REALLY into RPGs and this kind of stuff; I brought him to the local hobby store and he said NO WAY once he looked at a price tag).


Im done. Im really bored at the office and rambling.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Testify wrote:
The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread. Except poor moderation meant that they were by and large unchecked, so the decent folk like myself left, leaving it as an ocean of GW hate with a few rocky atolls of reasonable folk.

I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?

Infinity have a massive forum for their game, running in several languages. I have to admit not going on there very often, but it is all very reasonable and civil, perhaps because the company is heavily involved in the community and reacts to feedback and suggestions.

I haven't been on the Infinity forums in a while (a combination of not having time and not having anyone to play with where I am right now will do that to you), but back when I still frequented the place, it was fantastic. The community was nothing short of fantastic, and CB did a great job of maintaining it.

The problem isn't the community discussion, it's that many people have legitimate views and concerns that GW doesn't want to hear. And it only gets angrier and angrier the more they ignore it.

 Fafnir wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Testify wrote:
The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread. Except poor moderation meant that they were by and large unchecked, so the decent folk like myself left, leaving it as an ocean of GW hate with a few rocky atolls of reasonable folk.

I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?

Infinity have a massive forum for their game, running in several languages. I have to admit not going on there very often, but it is all very reasonable and civil, perhaps because the company is heavily involved in the community and reacts to feedback and suggestions.

I haven't been on the Infinity forums in a while (a combination of not having time and not having anyone to play with where I am right now will do that to you), but back when I still frequented the place, it was fantastic. The community was nothing short of fantastic, and CB did a great job of maintaining it.

The problem isn't the community discussion, it's that many people have legitimate views and concerns that GW doesn't want to hear. And it only gets angrier and angrier the more they ignore it.

Actually yeah, the community can be a problem.

As an example:
On the Infinity forums, when certain topics(notably the cheesecake issue) come up you see nothing but the "LALALALA WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT" style of posting where people are just trying to get a thread locked and buried.

So, there are some really strong view points on here, and a lot of them I agree with. However, there are very good reasons that GDub do not send sacrificial lambs onto sites like Dakka. MattyRM has a handle on it as do a few others. There is simply no way in hell that anyone in Thier right mind would want a job like that. Look at the poor Headhunter dude who posted on here earlier in the month. No doubt told by someone at GDub to "Go look for likely Red Shirts/Managers. And don't forget to check out forums that we ignore and don't like to include at all!.....Good luck"

Now I'm not asking for GDub to GIVE me things for free. They are a business after all and they have to make a profit. However ignorant of the generally held view they are. The problem comes when they make business decisions that boggle the mind. Fine cast (tm), Price rises that are monotonous as a metronome, the cancelling of sneak peaks, etc etc.
But for me, it's the price rises that have done it. Now I'm not saying that GDub shouldn't have put their prices up over the years, but when I started playing, a Rhino was £5..... Or £10 for 3...... I digress however. I have found the price rises of a few GDub products from 2004-2012 and the amount in percentage of the increases.

http://warmaster40k.com/2012/07/11/games-workshop-vs-inflation-the-true-numbers-behind-the-price-increases/

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
So, there are some really strong view points on here, and a lot of them I agree with. However, there are very good reasons that GDub do not send sacrificial lambs onto sites like Dakka. MattyRM has a handle on it as do a few others. There is simply no way in hell that anyone in Thier right mind would want a job like that. Look at the poor Headhunter dude who posted on here earlier in the month. No doubt told by someone at GDub to "Go look for likely Red Shirts/Managers. And don't forget to check out forums that we ignore and don't like to include at all!.....Good luck"

Actually, from what he's said...the people he works with from GW expected him to be fired for posting on Dakka.

He has also somewhat integrated himself into the community, trying to bring something positive to the table.

Not sure of the future success and benefits, but certainly something to note.

HI Broomstick.
GW plc spend in excess of £60M on the chain of B&M stores.(Which are being downsized to one man stores focused on retail, so all the free help is getting less and less.While the markup to cover the costs is increasing.)

Compared to the cost of a well run a moderated web site the chain of GW stores are a massive expence...(Appx 120 times more expencive!)


Travel back in time with me if you will....
In the 1990s when GW were developing RT into a larger skirmish game ,(2nd ed.)Lots of gamers wrote into the dev team with thoughts and ideas.
(My old gaming group got a nice letter back from Andy C.)
Back then GW seemed to be more focused on getting good games out, to inspire and retain gamers.(They doubled turn over every 3 years from 1987 to 1997.)


The game play grew interest and the amount of stores was increased to keep up with demand.

HOWEVER, GW high ups assumed it was the stores that was driving interest, (and ignored the impact of game play .)

Also after a limited investigation across GW ,stores, it revealed that the newer customers spent more short term.(No surprise there then.)
However, long term spending habits were NOT investigated...

Its was almost like the chairman was looking for information /searching for the interpritation of data to arrive at a simple and easy mission statement for the share holders...'we are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children..'perhaps...

Oddly enough when GW plc started targeting children specificaly 11 to 16 year old boys.(Rather than gamers in general.)

The quality/type of posts on the GW forums changed some what....
'Ideas for a more interactive game turn'.
'Alternative methods of resolving close assaults..'
'Campain rules ideas'.

Were replaced with '
'Plasma Mareens of deff.'.
' Awsom killy kaptin for my chapter.'


'As we are selling to people who know nothing, and they will belive anything we tell them.WHY bother interacting with them any more than we have to?''

I reckon somebody in Nottingham sees these threads with a load of management geniuses saying "GW don't know gak! They need to respect us and give us previews and blah blah blah... Say, these Dark Angels leaks look pretty sweet, I'm totally stoked for this new release" and smiles broadly

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedricbob wrote:
It seems a bit odd that in this modern age GW don't have a community rep that liaises with the main wargaming websites/publications.

Three simple answers to this:

Our perspective: Yes, you are correct. It really is odd. They really should have one. Engagement with the community at large is a good thing, even if they cannot cater to everyone's wishes. Especially with the bigger sites (Dakka, Taco Bell, Whineseer, etc.), there should be some attempt at a gathering of thoughts and feedback - a back and forth of discussion. It would bring the community together and service both the hobby and the HHHobby.
GW's perspective: The Internet is a fad. We can control it!
My perspective: With people like Testify and Zwei chugging the GW Kool Aid, they don't need their own representatives here.

I agree with the majority of your post, just not the last two sentences, is there any need to constantly try to take the piss out of people who don't share your rage at a PLC?

I don't like the whole "kool aid" thing period personally.. It reminds me of the weird people who think that the last three major school shootings were committed by government soldiers/UN black ops everyone who thinks otherwise is a "sheep" and they are all super smart.

As I've told you several times, I fully agree with many of your points, because I've only got a toe in the hobby compared to most people on here, and clearly I would not spend a bomb on some of their outrageously priced products, but being aggressively anti GW doesn't make you the smartest guy in the room in the same way that pre ordering the entire hobbit line doesn't make you a moron.

Basically, everyone draws a different line in the sand regarding how much a product is worth orthe how much they are willing to spend on said pastime, I don't think there is any need to attempt to mock people that are happier throwing more cash about than some.

 Daedricbob wrote:
It seems a bit odd that in this modern age GW don't have a community rep that liaises with the main wargaming websites/publications.

Such a position would allow them to provide official rulings on rule interpretations/questions as well as providing 'sneak peeks' of upcoming products, promoting offers, gaining valuable product/design feedback and I feel would go a long way to promoting general goodwill within the gaming community, the people that buy their products.

I honestly can't understand why they don't have anyone doing this, they don't even have their own forums.

Multiple reasons:

1: these forums are rarely a serious discussion area. too many players act as if GW does a disservice to them for not wholly supporting their occupation. GW is not in that business.

2: once GW did open an account, the user would be flooded with whine threads ranging from "where's Cypher?" to "on page 66 it says this guy did that but in another book it says he didn't, can you please get your fluff straight?" to "WHY CAN'T YOU IDIOTS BUILD A DECENT AND BALANCED RULESET!!! WAAAARD!" The poor guy volunteering for the job of answering all these would need some serious tranquilizers just to show up to work.

3: I know every sports fan in the world is a better coach than the coaches on the field, just like every idiot out there who writes a fandex knows game design better than a game company. GW is in business because they do a lot of research. there is a lot of math that goes into building a game system, and a lot of testing. opening an account would open another venue for every future Matt Ward-replacement and his "uber-cool, just like in the novels" fandex. you want to write for GW? get a job with them.

so unless we are willing to calm down and treat Warhammer as it is (a game), a GW representative would not exactly jump at the chance of ever joining a discussion page...

I am sure that GW has a rational motivation for their decisions, though I may or may not agree with it if that reason were explained to me.

I do wish, however, that GW had an attitude towards it's customer base more similar to this attitude from a different company:

http://dark-age.com/content.php?159-State-of-the-Game-2013

 Sigvatr wrote:
GW does not care at all about its consumer base. They give a flying shi....taki mushroom about what their customers want.

Have you missed all the posts about how they used to have a forum? Are you even old enough to remember what it was like?

 Testify wrote:
Have you missed all the posts about how they used to have a forum? Are you even old enough to remember what it was like?

Companies can change. Just because they used to interact with their customer/fan base, doesn't mean the current incarnation of the company has any interest in doing so. And again, two quite large gaming companies, PP and CB have their own thriving and well behaved forums.

Didn't this used to exist? I think was Chris Golinghorst's job before being let go.

For all the hate WOTC gets, the MTG online community, isn't bad. The people who make the game keep in touch with the fans, answer questions, give reasoning, and occasionally admit mistakes. Even in the official forums, people are free to discuss the state of the game, upcoming releases, and even the strengths and weaknesses (or complete uselessness) of individual cards.

Another good example of a company that is very visible and communicative online would be Riot games of League of Legends fame. At any given time of day you can potentially chat with anyone in the company in the forums, all the way up to the president. The "reds" are pretty good about ignoring the trolls and only speaking to those who are interested in having rational discussion. Also, while not everyone agrees with their final decisions, they do take feedback from the players, and even let them test out updates before release.

Admittedly, neither of these companies have the same business model as GW, and are much more accustomed to keeping up their online presence.

Most game companies have forums.
PP
BattleFront Miniatures
Wyrd
Corvus Belli
Mantic
Spartan Games
and
DreamPod 9
all have them.

It is rather remarkable that GW no longer has one. All of the other companies are able to deal with nay sayers and the discussion of other companies products.

GW definitely needs a community rep to help mollify the vitrol that people have for the company. This is what public relations is about. Ignoring the public is a very bad option.