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 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Have you missed all the posts about how they used to have a forum? Are you even old enough to remember what it was like?

Companies can change. Just because they used to interact with their customer/fan base, doesn't mean the current incarnation of the company has any interest in doing so. And again, two quite large gaming companies, PP and CB have their own thriving and well behaved forums.

Paradox Interactive developers have a habit of posting on their boards and taking questions from fans. In return, their fans don't relentlessly and consistantly insult them and flame them with their whinging malcontent.

As I say, it's give and take. The community ruined it, probably because most civilised folk weren't willing to use an "official" forum at all. I've never been on the official Civilisation, Warcraft or Dawn of War forums for similar reasons (though am an avid poster on Paradox, if you couldn't tell).

GW has email and phone options for people to contact them for customer service purposes.

Of course, this removes a certain amount of the anonymity that is required for the sort of trolling that takes place on a forum.

Because they don't care much about any of those things. They used to do sneak peaks and take people's Q&As and have their own forum. They scrapped it all because they know most of their profit comes from customers new to the hobby and who only stay a short time.

This more or less. We're anathema and an annoyance to GW.

I assume the OP also missed they guy posting job openings at GW? Assumjng he was a GW official representative, his thread was swarmed with background, rules, pricing, and overall complaints. If the guy is still around, he probably has a massive headache from collective thunderclap of whining.

And all he wanted to do was refer us to the employment pages at GW...

 Testify wrote:
. The community ruined it.

As I recall it was GW who ruined it with ineffectual/bad modding and a poor forum design.

Palindrome wrote:

 Testify wrote:
. The community ruined it.

As I recall it was GW who ruined it with ineffectual/bad modding and a poor forum design.

It's true that the forum had an out-dated design, even for back then. That's no excuse for constant trolling.

its funny the amount of hate GW generates, yet most of the haters still play GW games... odd... when I don't like something, I usually stay away from it...

 Testify wrote:
That's no excuse for constant trolling.

As I recall every post that was even slightly anti GW was simply deleted out of hand.

We both know there's no such thing as "slightly anti GW". Just look at this thread...

Palindrome wrote:

 Testify wrote:
That's no excuse for constant trolling.

As I recall every post that was even slightly anti GW was simply deleted out of hand.

and that was their right to do so. If I started badmouthing Yakface or DakkaDakka in general, I'd probably have my posts deleted and my account suspended. So what?

Of course there is such as thing as slightly anti GW. Not everyone is rabidly longing for the day that GW implodes under the weight of its own mistakes.

People really need to grow a thicker skin.

B'cause they just don't care.....

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

and that was their right to do so. If I started badmouthing Yakface or DakkaDakka in general, I'd probably have my posts deleted and my account suspended. So what?

First of all your analogy doesn't work. So what? Well if you want to ensure that your forum is devoid of anything other than army lists,amateur rules development and "space marins are kool" threads there needs to be some dissent for their to be a meaningful discussion.

It was their right to do what they want with their forum but the end result was that it was a poor substitute for the third party forums available at the time. Ironically these forums are still alive today and peoples grievances are openly aired and other games openly discusses all completely outside GW's influence. GW would have been much better served by maintaining its forum properly.

If you are going to reach out to the community you have to accept that there will be things that people don't like and that the internet breeds screaming hyperbole. the first can be tackled by engaging with the community and at least acknowledging their grievances while the second is the only place where heavy handed moderation is appropriate.

Saldiven wrote:
I am sure that GW has a rational motivation for their decisions, though I may or may not agree with it if that reason were explained to me.

As I said early in the thread, according to Robin Cruddace cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.

most rules discussions boil down into GW sucks. most fandexes boil down to GW and Mat Wars sucks.

see a common thread?

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
GW does not care at all about its consumer base. They give a flying shi....taki mushroom about what their customers want.

Have you missed all the posts about how they used to have a forum? Are you even old enough to remember what it was like?

What point is there to talk about their forums? They were entirely useless as every post that went against their way was deleted / threads were locked and let's not start about price discussions back then.

Furthermore, you really start grasping for straws now. You try back your argument of GW caring up by bringing up a forum that has been created ages ago? Less blindly embracing everything GW does and more rational thinking would be greatly appreciated.

And yet there exists other forums that does not devolve into" this company sucks!" in every thread. Mayhaps the problem is not the community but with the company?

 heartserenade wrote:
And yet there exists other forums that does not devolve into" this company sucks!" in every thread. Mayhaps the problem is not the community but with the company?

Impossibrue!

 Sigvatr wrote:

What point is there to talk about their forums? They were entirely useless as every post that went against their way was deleted / threads were locked and let's not start about price discussions back then.

If any other forum had the butthurt spam that GW forums had, they'd been locked too. Whinging about prices or things you don't like is pointless. Despite what the kiddies on dakka thing, GW aren't going to go around giving out free models if enough people on the internet complain.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Furthermore, you really start grasping for straws now. You try back your argument of GW caring up by bringing up a forum that has been created ages ago? Less blindly embracing everything GW does and more rational thinking would be greatly appreciated.

I didn't say they "cared". I neither want nor expect companies to "care" about their customers. The fact that you think they do shows that you've been sucked in by corporate bs from other sources. No company gives a gak about their customers.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
And yet there exists other forums that does not devolve into" this company sucks!" in every thread. Mayhaps the problem is not the community but with the company?

Impossibrue!

And even when faced with criticism, these companies respond and listen to the community. Official M:tG has its share of rant threads, but I don't see it closing down and they do address and explain things to the community when it is needed. A poster in this thread gave an example with Dark Age. These are good examples of how to interact with your community. Not listening to the community because people complain about your services/product is very unreasonable: YOU as a company should cater to your market's needs, not the other way around.

 heartserenade wrote:
Mayhaps the problem is not the community but with the company?

GW is mainly targeted at younger gamers. Teenage nerds are just full of rage.

Palindrome wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

and that was their right to do so. If I started badmouthing Yakface or DakkaDakka in general, I'd probably have my posts deleted and my account suspended. So what?

First of all your analogy doesn't work. So what? Well if you want to ensure that your forum is devoid of anything other than army lists,amateur rules development and "space marins are kool" threads there needs to be some dissent for their to be a meaningful discussion.

Actually his post would be deleted and his account would be banned for at least a few days... Bad mouthing Yakface violates rule 1 of Be Polite...

 Testify wrote:

I didn't say they "cared". I neither want nor expect companies to "care" about their customers. The fact that you think they do shows that you've been sucked in by corporate bs from other sources. No company gives a gak about their customers.

Oh wait, you mean like Bioware adding additional endings after a massive outburst by their fan base? The same Bioware that's part of EA, the biggest publisher around? The same Bioware that maintains a huge forum with regular developer feedback.

Oh, what about all the indie game companies? Kickstarter?

Less blind love, more rationalism. It helps.

 Testify wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Mayhaps the problem is not the community but with the company?

GW is mainly targeted at younger gamers. Teenage nerds are just full of rage.

This is really like playing chess with a pigeon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Testify wrote:

I didn't say they "cared". I neither want nor expect companies to "care" about their customers. The fact that you think they do shows that you've been sucked in by corporate bs from other sources. No company gives a gak about their customers.

Oh wait, you mean like Bioware adding additional endings after a massive outburst by their fan base? The same Bioware that's part of EA, the biggest publisher around? The same Bioware that maintains a huge forum with regular developer feedback.

Oh, what about all the indie game companies? Kickstarter?

Less blind love, more rationalism. It helps.

Furthermore, whining does not do anything? Whining signals dislike from your market. If your market is whining, it means they're not liking something your company is doing. They'll pay you more money if they like what you're doing or if they don't see you as a bad guy. Marketing is all about relationship, and relationships are two-way streets. Attend a marketing class and that's one of the first thing you'll learn.

Sigvatr wrote:
Oh wait, you mean like Bioware adding additional endings after a massive outburst by their fan base? The same Bioware that's part of EA, the biggest publisher around? The same Bioware that maintains a huge forum with regular developer feedback.

Making something that fans want and then selling it to them, that counts as "caring" to you?

While there are (and were) threads like this, such as threads asking for AdMech or non-Cadian guard, these are in the overwealming minority. You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and "pls give us free models".

heartserenade wrote:
Whining signals dislike from your market.

Not buying something signals your dislike for the market. Or did they not teach you that in whatever arts class you attended? If you think something is worth what its seller is charging, buy if. If you don't, don't buy it. Simple, no?

heartserenade wrote:Marketing is all about relationship, and relationships are two-way streets. Attend a marketing class and that's one of the first thing you'll learn.

I've never attended a marketing class, but I have worked a little in marketing, and my old boss used to be the head of marketing for one of Britain's largest supermarkets. If the forum we ran had been full of people whinging and bitching about us and complaining about charges relentlessly for years on end, then sure we'd have shut it down and simply retained facebook/twitter.

 heartserenade wrote:


Furthermore, whining does not do anything? Whining signals dislike from your market. If your market is whining, it means they're not liking something your company is doing. They'll pay you more money if they like what you're doing or if they don't see you as a bad guy. Marketing is all about relationship, and relationships are two-way streets. Attend a marketing class and that's one of the first thing you'll learn.

The problem is that the whiners are the abused spouses of the HHHobby. Their tears fill forums, but then when the time comes, they drag their dollars back to get yet another beating. The whining is background noise. The cashflow is the singular and ultimate indicator of market situation.

Sometimes you just gotta say your piece, hang it up, and then find whatever actually makes you happy. To do otherwise is to (I hope) one day realize you spent years being so emotional attached to something, when ultimately it probably wasn't even aware you existed to begin with, and if it was, could not bring itself to care about you if it tried.

Testify wrote:
Not buying something signals your dislike for the market. Or did they not teach you that in whatever arts class you attended? If you think something is worth what its seller is charging, buy if. If you don't, don't buy it. Simple, no?

I was talking from a company's point of view, not from the consumer.

And what happens if your customer wants to buy something but was turned off by your company? It signals a loss sale that you could've made, and could still make if you can cater to the changes your customers want. Simple, no?

Also, classy. I took up both Painting and Visual Communication, which tackled advertising, marketing and art. So yeah, I had marketing classes in my "art school".

I've never attended a marketing class, but I have worked a little in marketing, and my old boss used to be the head of marketing for one of Britain's largest supermarkets. If the forum we ran had been full of people whinging and bitching about us and complaining about charges relentlessly for years on end, then sure we'd have shut it down and simply retained facebook/twitter.

Great to know. I take it you haven't attended a philosophy class or worked on a debate team, since what you just said is just irrelevant. Hint: we're not talking about the hypothetical closure of your supermarket's forums due to complaints) (and I'm positive that if that happens, the head of marketing will address the complaints at the very least). We're talking about listening to your consumer base. It's really poor form, but judging from your other posts on other threads, at least you have consistency.

@Testify:

1. It isn't merely a question of making a product people like that determines if a company cares about it's customer base. If a company makes something that doesn't live up to their customers' expectation, then listens to the customers' concerns, and then adjusts their product to address those concerns, then that demonstrates that a company cares about their customers. Conversely, if a company makes a product that doesn't live up to their customers' expectations, then ignores the customers' concerns, then that indicates a company that doesn't care about their customers. Also, I was a member of those forums for years, and I don't remember any "give us free models" threads. People did complain about price increases, but that is a far cry from people asking for free stuff. The moderators could have easily posted a sticky thread explaining the reasoning behind the price increases and apologizing for the necessity, and it would have allayed 90% of the complaining, but GW instead merely locked any thread that addressed the subject. Just like they locked any thread that even mentioned Squats.

2. Not buying a product is kind of the last resort, and it's also the end result least desirable to a company. Most companies would far rather hear complaints about their business so that they can make adjustments to keep their customers happy rather than have their customers disappear without the company having an understanding of why. Customer complaints allow a company to know what the customer wants and how to better provide that experience. An old adage is that for every person who makes a positive comment to a company, there will be ten who complain. A related adage is that a satisfied customer will, on average, tell three people about their positive experience with a company, while a dissatisfied customer will, on average, tell ten people about their negative experience, so it behooves a company to keep far more happy customers than unhappy customers. People are, by and large, loyal to a brand, and they would much rather continue with that brand than look for another one; people would rather voice their concerns about a product, have their concerns addressed, and continue buying that product, but GW's current model doesn't give customer's a meaningful way to voice their concerns and have them addressed. One last business adage: It costs far less to retain an existing customer than it does to get a new customer.

3. GW's problem wasn't that they had a message board that was filled with negativity. The problem was that GW established a protocol of never addressing these negative comments. This makes the customer feel disenfranchised and feeds the negative feelings. Sometimes, in business, even if the company is completely in the right, the company still has to hold their hat in their proverbial hands and apologize for upsetting their customers. GW has categorically refused to do this. I've worked in banking for 15 years now, and the vast majority of what I do is regulated by the state or Federal governments. People complain to me all the time about something I had to do that was mandated by the law, but I still apologize for the inconvenience and try to explain the situation. What I do NOT do is ignore their concern.

Saldiven wrote:
Post of excellence

Well said

Saldiven wrote:
@Testify:

1. It isn't merely a question of making a product people like that determines if a company cares about it's customer base. If a company makes something that doesn't live up to their customers' expectation, then listens to the customers' concerns, and then adjusts their product to address those concerns, then that demonstrates that a company cares about their customers. Conversely, if a company makes a product that doesn't live up to their customers' expectations, then ignores the customers' concerns, then that indicates a company that doesn't care about their customers. Also, I was a member of those forums for years, and I don't remember any "give us free models" threads. People did complain about price increases, but that is a far cry from people asking for free stuff. The moderators could have easily posted a sticky thread explaining the reasoning behind the price increases and apologizing for the necessity, and it would have allayed 90% of the complaining, but GW instead merely locked any thread that addressed the subject. Just like they locked any thread that even mentioned Squats.

2. Not buying a product is kind of the last resort, and it's also the end result least desirable to a company. Most companies would far rather hear complaints about their business so that they can make adjustments to keep their customers happy rather than have their customers disappear without the company having an understanding of why. Customer complaints allow a company to know what the customer wants and how to better provide that experience. An old adage is that for every person who makes a positive comment to a company, there will be ten who complain. A related adage is that a satisfied customer will, on average, tell three people about their positive experience with a company, while a dissatisfied customer will, on average, tell ten people about their negative experience, so it behooves a company to keep far more happy customers than unhappy customers. People are, by and large, loyal to a brand, and they would much rather continue with that brand than look for another one; people would rather voice their concerns about a product, have their concerns addressed, and continue buying that product, but GW's current model doesn't give customer's a meaningful way to voice their concerns and have them addressed. One last business adage: It costs far less to retain an existing customer than it does to get a new customer.

3. GW's problem wasn't that they had a message board that was filled with negativity. The problem was that GW established a protocol of never addressing these negative comments. This makes the customer feel disenfranchised and feeds the negative feelings. Sometimes, in business, even if the company is completely in the right, the company still has to hold their hat in their proverbial hands and apologize for upsetting their customers. GW has categorically refused to do this. I've worked in banking for 15 years now, and the vast majority of what I do is regulated by the state or Federal governments. People complain to me all the time about something I had to do that was mandated by the law, but I still apologize for the inconvenience and try to explain the situation. What I do NOT do is ignore their concern.

Hear, hear.