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 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
and that was their right to do so. If I started badmouthing Yakface or DakkaDakka in general, I'd probably have my posts deleted and my account suspended. So what?

If one person did that, then yes we would probably lock the post and discuss with them just what they expected to get out of this site.

If enough people started doing it that it began to get in the way of normal discussion... We just might start thinking about looking into what we were doing wrong.



But that's just us. Stamping your feet and telling everyone to get out of your house is clearly the far more professional approach.

 heartserenade wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
@Testify:

1. It isn't merely a question of making a product people like that determines if a company cares about it's customer base. If a company makes something that doesn't live up to their customers' expectation, then listens to the customers' concerns, and then adjusts their product to address those concerns, then that demonstrates that a company cares about their customers. Conversely, if a company makes a product that doesn't live up to their customers' expectations, then ignores the customers' concerns, then that indicates a company that doesn't care about their customers. Also, I was a member of those forums for years, and I don't remember any "give us free models" threads. People did complain about price increases, but that is a far cry from people asking for free stuff. The moderators could have easily posted a sticky thread explaining the reasoning behind the price increases and apologizing for the necessity, and it would have allayed 90% of the complaining, but GW instead merely locked any thread that addressed the subject. Just like they locked any thread that even mentioned Squats.

2. Not buying a product is kind of the last resort, and it's also the end result least desirable to a company. Most companies would far rather hear complaints about their business so that they can make adjustments to keep their customers happy rather than have their customers disappear without the company having an understanding of why. Customer complaints allow a company to know what the customer wants and how to better provide that experience. An old adage is that for every person who makes a positive comment to a company, there will be ten who complain. A related adage is that a satisfied customer will, on average, tell three people about their positive experience with a company, while a dissatisfied customer will, on average, tell ten people about their negative experience, so it behooves a company to keep far more happy customers than unhappy customers. People are, by and large, loyal to a brand, and they would much rather continue with that brand than look for another one; people would rather voice their concerns about a product, have their concerns addressed, and continue buying that product, but GW's current model doesn't give customer's a meaningful way to voice their concerns and have them addressed. One last business adage: It costs far less to retain an existing customer than it does to get a new customer.

3. GW's problem wasn't that they had a message board that was filled with negativity. The problem was that GW established a protocol of never addressing these negative comments. This makes the customer feel disenfranchised and feeds the negative feelings. Sometimes, in business, even if the company is completely in the right, the company still has to hold their hat in their proverbial hands and apologize for upsetting their customers. GW has categorically refused to do this. I've worked in banking for 15 years now, and the vast majority of what I do is regulated by the state or Federal governments. People complain to me all the time about something I had to do that was mandated by the law, but I still apologize for the inconvenience and try to explain the situation. What I do NOT do is ignore their concern.

Hear, hear.

+1.

The reason why GW don't do it, even if it is against any business rationale, is simply because they still make a profit. Once they don't do it anymore, management will be changed, and things might become much different. If indeed, no buy-out/take-over is happening before that.

 daedalus wrote:
The cashflow is the singular and ultimate indicator of market situation.

Its interesting that GW's cash flow is drying up then isn't it?

They don't have one representative because they are inclined to believe it's unnecessary... If its a necessity or not we could spend pages on this forum debating it, but lets face it, prices are going up in huge leaps yet people are still buying it.
I think that's an artificial number though ( other discussion)... Also with the hobbit bubble around the corner I don't see any change in the GW Philosophy any time soon.

Me personally? I detached myself from the "GW" brand things long ago and I just pinpoint the things I really want to buy. I leave the passionate remarks and positions to others... I kind of secretly like the fact that GW is inefficient on many fields because that leaves room for other companies explore.

 daedalus wrote:

daedalus wrote:And more importantly, look at the community. It's not healthy to subject people to that kind of abuse. I mean, probably the only thing worse to the human psyche would be to have to be one of those guys who does the offensive crap filter for google or something.

You guys are a lot more vicious than you realize, I think sometimes.

Peregrine wrote:Because GW's management is a bunch of incompetent idiots who are afraid to do anything that might in...

Ahh, there it is: my moment of zen.

lol

 blood reaper wrote:

vedreag wrote:

 Cruentus wrote:
It wasn't worth the time, headache, and investment (salary, forums, IT, whatever) to keep doing it, especially c considering what GWs forum became. I don't blame them.

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what did the GW forums turn into?

Games Workshop would ban anyone who bashed the company or it's pricing, this happened allot, along with lots of criticism on several other subjects. GW realised that this wouldn't end and closed the forum so they didn't have to read ether "YOUR PRICES ARE TOO HIGH!" or "WHITE DWARF SUCKS!".

Thats why they are getting gaming tables out of thier stores, GW absolutely hates people with informed opinions. I nearly go banned for questioning why the storm raven was $20 more in Canada then the US despite the dollar being on par for years now. The worst thing about the new generation of GW sell-bots is they will glady sacrifice morals to defend the bosses that use them like fodder.

 Kingsley wrote:
According to Robin Cruddace, cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.

Thats because people are weak, the second I found out the Hobbit was 3 movies spread out over 3 years spelt very clearly "Hi Im peter jacksons shell, the movie is entirely done and we can realease it now over the next year and include it all into one DVD butttttttt I want to make 300 million dollars instead of 100 million". You're being abused for loyalty. GW is no different, those that are loyal get abused, those that find ways not to be abused get kicked harder, then when we question the abuse we are ignored and kicked again.

A company should not be at war with its customers

 Testify wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

 Testify wrote:
. The community ruined it.

As I recall it was GW who ruined it with ineffectual/bad modding and a poor forum design.

It's true that the forum had an out-dated design, even for back then. That's no excuse for constant trolling.

GW taught as well then, we get trolled by them all the time with "historical exchange rates", trade embargos, cheaper materials that cost customers more, and yearly price increases to the point when we know exactly when it will happen.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
its funny the amount of hate GW generates, yet most of the haters still play GW games... odd... when I don't like something, I usually stay away from it...

You do realize there is a huge difference between liking warhammer and hating GW right?

Not buying something signals your dislike for the market.

Only if they know why, since there is no difference in a vacuum between not buying something because you don't like it, don't need it. or find the companies practices to be unacceptable.

I haven't ever bought a boat, does that automatically signal a dislike for the market?

No, only by providing feedback to the company does the company know that you stopped or never started buying their stuff because of a specific reason. Even companies can't read minds.

A company that ignores the valid feedback from their customers (i.e. stated preferences, suggestions for improvements, complaints about practices, etc.). I say valid only with the intent to separate feedback that would improve their product from lies or slander.

-------------------------------------

On a separate note, the Hobbit has enough detail to make three movies, so unless there is a bunch of filler three movies doesn't really strike me as just a money grab since it requires more work to make a finished run time of 6 hours as opposed to two, and there is the risk of the later movies failing if the first isn't good enough.

The issues with GW's forums were their own fault. Poor moderation and community handling and poorer responses to issues made for a cesspit. I remember their forums, it was a *very* primitive message board with poor communications on GW's part (what little there was of it).

It became what they helped make it. That'll happen to anything, it's not unique to GW's playerbase.

 Testify wrote:
You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and "pls give us free models".

Name one person on Dakka who has ever said "Please give us free models!", and was completely serious. Name one.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
According to Robin Cruddace, cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.

Thats because people are weak.

GW doesn't care why some policy is more effective. It cares about the bottom line. If distributing free back massages in all GW stores and selling Forge World miniatures at 90% off was more profitable than what they're doing, GW would do that. It isn't, so they don't.

Questioning GW policies has no effect as long as you keep buying. If you really think new policies are bad, stop buying GW and convince your friends to do the same. GW will change their tone if and only if the bottom line is affected. If, on the other hand, you think new policies are fine, keep buying GW. But if you think policies are bad and you keep buying, your opinion doesn't matter. GW views you the same as it would any other loyal customer.

there is a big difference in liking Warhammer and hating GW. Problem is, you're still playing and purchasing Warhammer.

Sidstyler wrote:

 Testify wrote:
You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and "pls give us free models".

Name one person on Dakka who has ever said "Please give us free models!", and was completely serious. Name one.

There was one guy. Wrote down his address and everything. I told him I'd send anthrax. Dude never posted again...

Kingsley wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
According to Robin Cruddace, cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.

Thats because people are weak.

GW doesn't care why some policy is more effective. It cares about the bottom line. If distributing free back massages in all GW stores and selling Forge World miniatures at 90% off was more profitable than what they're doing, GW would do that. It isn't, so they don't.

Questioning GW policies has no effect as long as you keep buying. If you really think new policies are bad, stop buying GW and convince your friends to do the same. GW will change their tone if and only if the bottom line is affected. If, on the other hand, you think new policies are fine, keep buying GW. But if you think policies are bad and you keep buying, your opinion doesn't matter. GW views you the same as it would any other loyal customer.

But when we stop buying their product, they can just use the excuse that we're simply no longer interested, and that they should push even more towards a younger, more impressionable market. Not buying the product is one thing, but to them, that could just mean we're not part of their core demographic (and justifiably so, we're not, although that could go into a discussion about whether or not GW's core demographic is even a good one to begin with). They need to understand why people aren't buying their product, and what would make people want to buy it.

I don't buy GW products anymore, and I haven't for a while now, but they'll never know why I stopped buying. With that in mind, they can do an endless amount of different things, but unless it addresses why I'm not buying their products anymore, they still won't be able to fix the issue. To them, my non-purchasing isn't a lost sale, it's a non-existant sale.

 Fafnir wrote:
[I don't buy GW products anymore, and I haven't for a while now, but they'll never know why I stopped buying. With that in mind, they can do an endless amount of different things, but unless it addresses why I'm not buying their products anymore, they still won't be able to fix the issue.

You could solve that problem by writing a letter to GW and explaining why you don't buy anymore. It's possible that your input won't be taken in to account, but if many people all stop buying for the same reasons and complain, change could result.

 mattyrm wrote:
I agree with the majority of your post, just not the last two sentences, is there any need to constantly try to take the piss out of people who don't share your rage at a PLC?

JONAS
Is it really necessary to further antagonise him?

O'NEILL
Yes.

- Stargate SG-1, Season 6, Episode 22, Full Circle

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
its funny the amount of hate GW generates, yet most of the haters still play GW games... odd... when I don't like something, I usually stay away from it...

Ah the old "Why don't you just quit?" chestnut. Still as fallacious and totally brain-dead as it ever was.

For the 80 bazillionth time:

Hating GW =/= hating 40K.

Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
I agree with the majority of your post, just not the last two sentences, is there any need to constantly try to take the piss out of people who don't share your rage at a PLC?

JONAS
Is it really necessary to further antagonise him?

O'NEILL
Yes.

- Stargate SG-1, Season 6, Episode 22, Full Circle

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
its funny the amount of hate GW generates, yet most of the haters still play GW games... odd... when I don't like something, I usually stay away from it...

Ah the old "Why don't you just quit?" chestnut. Still as fallacious and totally brain-dead as it ever was.

For the 80 bazillionth time:

Hating GW =/= hating 40K.

Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.

That is only your opinion.

Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Testify wrote:
You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and "pls give us free models".

Name one person on Dakka who has ever said "Please give us free models!", and was completely serious. Name one.

Here is a trade thread where a person asked for free models:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328344.page

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
That is only your opinion.

Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.

It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?

 WarOne wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Testify wrote:
You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and "pls give us free models".

Name one person on Dakka who has ever said "Please give us free models!", and was completely serious. Name one.

Here is a trade thread where a person asked for free models:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328344.page

Not quite what I was asking for, though technically it counts. I meant more or less fans demanding GW give models away rather than sell them, but you probably knew that anyway.

vedreag wrote:

 Cruentus wrote:
It wasn't worth the time, headache, and investment (salary, forums, IT, whatever) to keep doing it, especially considering what GWs forum became. I don't blame them.

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what did the GW forums turn into?

In case anyone failed to reply in the pages that I haven't read:

Our nickname for the GW forums was "The Eye of Terror."

Does that tell you anything?

Basically it had a lot of vitriolic posting (not all of it was from kiddies) and
with the presence of fans on the forum, the flamewars escalated pretty
quickly. By contrast, a forum like Dakka had far fewer users at the same
time, so moderation was probably easier.

However, I wasn't around as a mod to be able to speak to that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
That is only your opinion.

Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.

It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?

You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
That is only your opinion.

Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.

It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?

You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?

You do understand what you're saying then, correct? That if someone dislikes GW and disapproves of their practices of late, then they automatically dislike 40k in general as well, right? Because that's what you're saying.

And it makes no sense. At all.

Why not?

I love Warhammer Fantasy, 40k, and LOTR. The games are great fun and the models are awesome.

I do not like what GW are doing with their company, however, by raising prices and their apparent lack of concern for the people buying their stuff.

So whilst the game is great, I don't like the company.

It's like loving Mass Effect but hating EA.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
That is only your opinion.

Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.

It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?

You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?

Opinion =/= statement.

The sentence i wrote above is a statement. A statement contains truth value (it can either be true or false), while opinions do not. What HMBC said is a statement, not an opinion.

It's also entirely possible to hate the company and love the game, the same way you can hate your government but love your country.

WOTC getting a hold of any miniatures game would be a bad idea.

Just like every miniatures game they have 1 or 2 decent sets and try to squeeze out as much profit as possible with sub par miniatures. Material gets cheaper, pieces bending, reuse sculpts with different colors.

Starwars, DnD, Axis and Allies, War at Sea, dream blade, All started off nice but quality suffered greatly.

Fafnir wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
That is only your opinion.

Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.

It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?

You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?

You do understand what you're saying then, correct? That if someone dislikes GW and disapproves of their practices of late, then they automatically dislike 40k in general as well, right? Because that's what you're saying.

heartserenade wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
That is only your opinion.

Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.

It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?

You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?

Opinion =/= statement.

The sentence i wrote above is a statement. A statement contains truth value (it can either be true or false), while opinions do not. What HMBC said is a statement, not an opinion.

It's also entirely possible to hate the company and love the game, the same way you can hate your government but love your country.

Yes, I understand, let me explain further.

I almost always agree with H.M.B.C.

I almost always disagree with the way he says it. That is my point, I am not saying he is wrong or making an illogical assumption. The way he makes his point though is quite off putting.

Yes, but what he said in that instance was a fact, not an opinion. You can take all the issue you want with how he says something, but that's not the point you originally made.

Saldiven wrote:
@Testify:

1. It isn't merely a question of making a product people like that determines if a company cares about it's customer base. If a company makes something that doesn't live up to their customers' expectation, then listens to the customers' concerns, and then adjusts their product to address those concerns, then that demonstrates that a company cares about their customers. Conversely, if a company makes a product that doesn't live up to their customers' expectations, then ignores the customers' concerns, then that indicates a company that doesn't care about their customers. Also, I was a member of those forums for years, and I don't remember any "give us free models" threads. People did complain about price increases, but that is a far cry from people asking for free stuff. The moderators could have easily posted a sticky thread explaining the reasoning behind the price increases and apologizing for the necessity, and it would have allayed 90% of the complaining, but GW instead merely locked any thread that addressed the subject. Just like they locked any thread that even mentioned Squats.

2. Not buying a product is kind of the last resort, and it's also the end result least desirable to a company. Most companies would far rather hear complaints about their business so that they can make adjustments to keep their customers happy rather than have their customers disappear without the company having an understanding of why. Customer complaints allow a company to know what the customer wants and how to better provide that experience. An old adage is that for every person who makes a positive comment to a company, there will be ten who complain. A related adage is that a satisfied customer will, on average, tell three people about their positive experience with a company, while a dissatisfied customer will, on average, tell ten people about their negative experience, so it behooves a company to keep far more happy customers than unhappy customers. People are, by and large, loyal to a brand, and they would much rather continue with that brand than look for another one; people would rather voice their concerns about a product, have their concerns addressed, and continue buying that product, but GW's current model doesn't give customer's a meaningful way to voice their concerns and have them addressed. One last business adage: It costs far less to retain an existing customer than it does to get a new customer.

3. GW's problem wasn't that they had a message board that was filled with negativity. The problem was that GW established a protocol of never addressing these negative comments. This makes the customer feel disenfranchised and feeds the negative feelings. Sometimes, in business, even if the company is completely in the right, the company still has to hold their hat in their proverbial hands and apologize for upsetting their customers. GW has categorically refused to do this. I've worked in banking for 15 years now, and the vast majority of what I do is regulated by the state or Federal governments. People complain to me all the time about something I had to do that was mandated by the law, but I still apologize for the inconvenience and try to explain the situation. What I do NOT do is ignore their concern.

...and yet people still buy GW. What does that tell you about the post-modern mantra of customer service? It seems a lot of people crave being fed corporate bs. Maybe they got hooked on it from everywhere else.

GW are a company who make stuff. If they've breached your consumer rights, you have every right to complain. But if you don't like how they act, don't buy from them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fafnir wrote:

You do understand what you're saying then, correct? That if someone dislikes GW and disapproves of their practices of late, then they automatically dislike 40k in general as well, right? Because that's what you're saying.

There's a very strong correlation between people preaching about GW's evil on Dakka Discussions and people screaming butthurt in tactics/general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 heartserenade wrote:

I was talking from a company's point of view, not from the consumer.

And what happens if your customer wants to buy something but was turned off by your company? It signals a loss sale that you could've made, and could still make if you can cater to the changes your customers want. Simple, no?

Because your end product wasn't good enough. Customer service is a part of the commodity, particularly so in the modern age.

It's really poor form, but judging from your other posts on other threads, at least you have consistency.

Nice to know personal attacks on dakka are allowed against anyone who disagrees with the neverending torrent of beard-rage.

Saldiven wrote:

*snip*

Really good post, exalted!

Kingsly wrote:
GW doesn't care why some policy is more effective. It cares about the bottom line. If distributing free back massages in all GW stores and selling Forge World miniatures at 90% off was more profitable than what they're doing, GW would do that. It isn't, so they don't.

I completely agree with you here, although I feel I probably have a more customer-centric (or perhaps a little naive?) opinion on what the company should be doing, and where it could be doing something more than focusing just on the bottom line and 'damn all the rest.'

But yes if you were to argue that all of a company's revenue comes from first time buyers, who will stick with GW and then move on after 6 months, then why bother listening to any customer feedback? As long as the items being sold are appealing to that demographic, then in purely monetary concerns then GW are doing their job admirably.

But, how much of that is really the case? I acknowledge that most longer term players (myself included) have already spent most of their $ with GW on a large army, and then spend a lot of time fiddling with it (or perhaps just adding a character or two) and have since moved on. But there are not inconsiderable amount of regular posters here who we know spend many thousands of dollars on new releases and seriously consider each new army and release as it comes along. In that sense, if a new release could be regarded as 'not hitting the mark' (and this could apply for any reason - perhaps a poorly written codex, either background or rules, dislike of a new miniature aesthetic etc) then GW are losing money on it. You would have to therefore reason that it's in GW's best interests to know if this is the case.

I don't really want to bring Testify's posts into it (and to be honest, I'm amazed at how a user can post such empty vitriol for so long and continue to be allowed to post) but the oft-mentioned 'but you just hate everything' doesn't really hold water. Yes, there will be small percentage who will be impossibly to please, and visa-versa, but there is a whole, much larger grey area of community 'zeitgeist' that would nevertheless give a general impression of whether something is good or bad, and therefore likely to be embraced by the paying public. The Dark Eldar range for instance attracted almost universal praise for most of its new releases. On the other hand, it's already obvious that the new Dark Angel Land Speeder is going to go the way of the Chaos Minotaurs and other parts of the Chaos 40k range in attracting a high percentage of dissatisfied commentators. Now, of course things don't always shake-up with something being 'good' being popular (just look at the UK singles music chart over the Christmas period for instance) but nevertheless in a market that is becoming increasingly crowded it is not beneficial to be repeatedly releasing products that are falling short of customer expectations.

To be honest it feels a little ridiculous having to spell this out - we're just talking about market research here, marketing in general and regarding an industry that is worth unimaginable amounts of money as a cornerstone of the modern economic markets. If you're choosing (either wilfully or just through neglect) to not make the most of it, and that includes public-contact points such as forums (which I think most forward-thinking companies would have given their eye-teeth for 20 years ago) then I don't think many people educated in financial matters would say that you are doing a good thing for the long-term prospects of the company. Having some kind of public forum, as practically every other company in this industry has proven, would be immensely beneficial to both them and the fan base - I can't understand how anyone can think otherwise.

 Testify wrote:

...and yet people still buy GW. What does that tell you about the post-modern mantra of customer service?

Given that sales volumes have been dropping ever since the LotR bubble burst, quite a lot.