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 Testify wrote:
For perspective, Gas companies in the UK outright lie about price rises in a poorly-regulated market. The fact that they have people on tv blaming the increases on the price of wholesale gas doesn't mean jack gak.

Who gives a about gas companies. Compare GW's attitude towards the community to other gaming companies. MTG has constant real information posted on their weekly blogs, their own forums, efforts to support third-party efforts by giving preview cards to popular fan sites, mentioning third-party tournaments, etc. I don't play WM/H, but everything I've heard about those games is that the developers pay attention to the community. Depending on the video game you'll see developers having meaningful conversations on their forums, listening to feedback, etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There was indeed some genuine questioning and conversation going on. But there were also people who, as is usually the case when a company official posts in a third party setting, chose to vent their frustrations with the company on that individual.

So pretty much GW doesn't have a community representative because their policies have generated so much outrage and they'd have to stop sucking before the could face the pubic again? And because it would be too much work to do things the right way they'll just hide out of sight and focus on selling space marines to 10 year olds?

 Laughing Man wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!

Warmachine Weekend, Lock and Load, DieCon, TempleCon, AdeptiCon... I can keep going if you like.

Clearly you missed the "primary focus" part of my statement.

 cincydooley wrote:
I hear what you're saying, but the fact that the GW tournament scene continues to grow is indicative of at least some growth in the player base.

No it isn't. All it indicates is that more people are playing in tournaments.

What I'm seeing a lot of these days is people who used to play in a store but that store closed down, or who used to play with a group of friends but the friends have all moved on, or who used to play at a gaming club but the club has either dwindled away or moved onto other games... and so they use tournaments as a way of getting in some sort of regular gaming. For a lot of these guys, where once they would be gaming every couple of weeks at worst, the tournies they enter are all the gaming they get to do.


That's not a sign of a healthy, growing community. It's the exact opposite of that.

But if you look internationally, is Warmachine as popular in, say, Ireland as the US? I know that where I live it isn't as popular as 40k, and if there is a WM/H player they usually also play 40k or Fantasy.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!

Warmachine Weekend, Lock and Load, DieCon, TempleCon, AdeptiCon... I can keep going if you like.

Clearly you missed the "primary focus" part of my statement.

Two of the four are, TempleCon has 14 Warmachine tournaments in three days, and AdeptiCon runs as many WM/H tournaments as 40K (more if you don't count megabattles). Then we have GenCon, PAX, and other cons that hold numerous WM/H tournaments without requiring that the event be solely dedicated to the one system.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
But if you look internationally, is Warmachine as popular in, say, Ireland as the US? I know that where I live it isn't as popular as 40k, and if there is a WM/H player they usually also play 40k or Fantasy.

Thats really not the issue. GW is still the biggest fish in the wargaming pond. However other fish are rapidly growing bigger while GW is shriking. PP and BF are far bigger today than ithey were 10 years ago, and they will likely be bigger still in another 10. If the current trends continue GW will be overtaken.

I have heard, but can't verify. that historicals also take up a significant proportion of the wargames played in the US, suppossedly they are more popular than Sci-FI/fantasy games.

Historicals though aren't really that great a comparison - loads of companies make historical miniatures and rulesets whilst only one company make GW models (well, you know what I mean) and rules for 40k, LOTR and Fantasy. Meanwhile there's Gripping Beast, Warlord Games, Wargames Factory etc. that make rules and models.

I don't see anyting wrong with it as a comparison, afterall its not as if you need to use specific models for a specific game. The only PP models in my cygnar army are the warjacks while I had an Empire army planned, before I gave up on fantasy, that didn't have a single GW miniature in it.

Wargaming is wargaming.

Thats rather off topic though.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!

Warmachine Weekend, Lock and Load, DieCon, TempleCon, AdeptiCon... I can keep going if you like.

Clearly you missed the "primary focus" part of my statement.

Two of the four are, TempleCon has 14 Warmachine tournaments in three days, and AdeptiCon runs as many WM/H tournaments as 40K (more if you don't count megabattles). Then we have GenCon, PAX, and other cons that hold numerous WM/H tournaments without requiring that the event be solely dedicated to the one system.

Have you actually been to adepticon?? The amount of people playing 40k there simply dwarfs the amount of people playing Warmahordes. And it isn't even close.

It's almost as though people are making outlandish claims even though they don't know what they are talking about.

 WarOne wrote:
There will be a day when GW will have to account to the public, but that is not a day long coming when they continue to be successful and their IP strong.

The public? The Wargaming Community? Or Warhammer Players? The Company is supported by a niche community and doesn't really affect the overall public. Hence no real need to address the public at large.

If you saw what the forums were, how people treated the "Rulez Boyz", and others on the forums you'd understand why they just pulled the plug. You'd also know why Portent.net (aka Warseer) ran the GW personalities off of their board back in the mid to late 90s. They were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. The amount of hate they got for 3rd Edition was massive. Nobody like the AV rules, that armor saves didn't change based on the weapons you hit them with and that the points values for the models was halved. There is a ton of hate for GW out there. They used to do things the way PP does them now - they just took a lot of flack for it and decided it wasn't worth the effort. People tend to think the squeekiest wheel will get oiled works until they decide to garage the car and opt for a different mode of transportation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monster Rain wrote:
It's almost as though people are making outlandish claims even though they don't know what they are talking about.

Combine that with Porn and that is the Internet in a nutshell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:



Compare GW's attitude towards the community to other gaming companies. MTG has constant real information posted on their weekly blogs, their own forums, efforts to support third-party efforts by giving preview cards to popular fan sites, mentioning third-party tournaments, etc.

MTG is great - its one of the only games out there that in order to play competitively, you need to buy and replace your cards every couple of years because at the competitive level you can't play with cards that are too old because they don't necessarily integrate with the latest edition. MTG relies on this form of marketing because they need to keep the hype up about their latest and greatest set.

boyd wrote:
MTG is great - its one of the only games out there that in order to play competitively, you need to buy and replace your cards every couple of years because at the competitive level you can't play with cards that are too old because they don't necessarily integrate with the latest edition. MTG relies on this form of marketing because they need to keep the hype up about their latest and greatest set.

They do integrate actually - there are Legacy tournaments where every set is able to be used.
It's jut the Standard tournaments that require only the current core + block. And iirc that started as a player convention almost 20 years ago.

 SurfPenguin wrote:
OP, let me ask you a simple question: If you were running a company, would you want a phone line where, no matter when you picked it up any hour of the day you got nothing other than an endless string of insults, obscenities, and screaming demands that you essentially give your product away for free?

I can only pity anyone who honestly thinks this is what our community is and produces. To say I think this viewpoint is mistaken would be missing an opportunity to use "preposterous" and "ridiculously self-loathing". Who organizes all the cons and tournaments all over the world? The community does. Who wrote the INAT FAQs that tried to clarify things so people could play competitively and free of equivocation at the highest level? The community did. Who spends thousands and thousand of hours on conversions and fan-art, reinterpreting the 40k background in a thousand different ways? The community does.

We are the giants on whose shoulders the entire edifice is built. We're the people playing the games, painting the models, organizing the events. We're home to the good, the bad, the worst, and the best.

Redacted by Mannahnin

To be honest people on this tread that keep saying that dakka and the community are a bunch of " insert nasty adjective" and then are part of both dakka and the comunity reminds me that some do have a very ugly view about themselves.

But, he is right about who did all the stuff and it is not GW, it's us the people they treat like dirt after everything we have done over the year to promote there game. If they don't want people complaining they can, fix there massive broken game. Playtesting has been around forever, it is all GW fault if they are to dumb to have a large trusted playtester base for the games.

And to the guy that ask would I take it up with a store cleck, if I have a problem with the company they work for. YES, YES I would, becouse (and this gose for any store) they are a representative of the company. If the don't know the answer, then there company didn't train them right, even more so if they deal with there customers on a daily base.

Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?

Do GW have short comings? Sure.

Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.

But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?

How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?

Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?

 mattyrm wrote:
Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?

Do GW have short comings? Sure.

Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.

But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?

How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?

Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?

I have heard from multiple sources in the company that GW managers have assaulted employees and that GW employees have assaulted customers. Yeah, I would say they treat people like dirt.

 mattyrm wrote:
But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?

I've never personally made that claim, but if I were going to, I might hold up being charged twice as much for miniatures as anyone else because of where I live, being told that I can only buy from the stores that GW want me to buy from, being charged £60 to ship a pot of paint from their webstore, being kept in the dark about upcoming releases, being charged $120 for an unfinished rulebook, being charged twice as much for digital downloads as the rest of the world despite them being downloaded from the same website as everyone else, being fed nonsense like 'Online stores do nothing to grow the hobby' by a company that no longer supports community events while a lot of those 'freeloading' online stores do, and that you have to provide somewhere for people to play in order to be supporting the hobby... by a company that is removing gaming space from their stores...

The problem with GW isn't that they make stuff and try to sell it to me. It's that they really seem to be going out of their way to make it harder for me to (a) buy their stuff and (b) want to.

I don't know why people are still arguing. Clearly no other company in the history of the Internet (Blizzard) has ever been so reviled (Blizzard) and bothered having an Internet presence (Blizzard) because they (Blizzard) would surely be ripped apart by angry trolls.

 mattyrm wrote:
Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?

Do GW have short comings? Sure.

Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.

But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?

How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?

Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?

Like dirt lets see... My 100% GW model army no long let played in GW stores becouse they no longer support it, or letting us play Blood Bowl or the rest, dispite them still selling almost ever line.

Telling us you have to what for WD for that info, while online web site post the new days early.

Selling us Finecraft, knowing it is substanderd product, while telling us how great it is and cheeper to make then charge us the same and sometime more. The whole time knowing it was a stop gap as they change everything over to plastic.

There are some dirty move, now can you point out what some of the thing they done to try to get us back. And don't bring up the replacement parts, as thats is the law and not doing it will cost them way more then the part.

 spaceelf wrote:

I have heard from multiple sources in the company that GW managers have assaulted employees and that GW employees have assaulted customers. Yeah, I would say they treat people like dirt.

Well this is one of the more absurd things I've read on dakka lately. Congrats!

My Oz brethren: I can completely empathize with you. Its completely unfair.

Noir wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?

Do GW have short comings? Sure.

Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.

But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?

How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?

Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?

Like dirt lets see... My 100% GW model army no long let played in GW stores becouse they no longer support it, or letting us play Blood Bowl or the rest, dispite them still selling almost ever line.

Telling us you have to what for WD for that info, while online web site post the new days early.

Selling us Finecraft, knowing it is substanderd product, while telling us how great it is and cheeper to make then charge us the same and sometime more. The whole time knowing it was a stop gap as they change everything over to plastic.

There are some dirty move, now can you point out what some of the thing they done to try to get us back. And don't bring up the replacement parts, as thats is the law and not doing it will cost them way more then the part.

I`ve never been told I can`t play any of my old armies (all my armies are old) bloodbowl and such was allowed but not during the set times the other games had, we played it on Wednesday, the quiet day lol
maybe the GW`s in Canada are nicer, I donno

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

Noir wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?

Do GW have short comings? Sure.

Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.

But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?

How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?

Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?

Like dirt lets see... My 100% GW model army no long let played in GW stores becouse they no longer support it, or letting us play Blood Bowl or the rest, dispite them still selling almost ever line.

Telling us you have to what for WD for that info, while online web site post the new days early.

Selling us Finecraft, knowing it is substanderd product, while telling us how great it is and cheeper to make then charge us the same and sometime more. The whole time knowing it was a stop gap as they change everything over to plastic.

There are some dirty move, now can you point out what some of the thing they done to try to get us back. And don't bring up the replacement parts, as thats is the law and not doing it will cost them way more then the part.

I`ve never been told I can`t play any of my old armies (all my armies are old) bloodbowl and such was allowed but not during the set times the other games had, we played it on Wednesday, the quiet day lol
maybe the GW`s in Canada are nicer, I donno

It must be nice you don't own Squats or would like to run them as the army you bought them as. The other games you were lucky if GW let you play Spacehulk in the store for about 2 month after the game can out.

Positivity and engagement generate positive results. I have no idea why GW has no representative, sure it would be hard for a few years but it would pay off.

Look at this post on PP boards. All they are doing is having a staff tourney and using it to publicise/engage the public.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?132449-OFFICIAL-SR-2013-Beta-Privateer-Staff-Tournament-12-15-12

and it works.

I did own squats, they were chaos squats and were used in my old lost and the damned army
I spent months, more then a year making that lost and the damned army, converted every model and now its worthless
my mortal-beast-demon chaos fantasy army- worthless
my snotling army - worthless
feral orks, you get the idea
dont just assume you are the only one who had an army that was dropped completely
I have lots that I have no use for and never will again
things i spent so much time on and loved playing

I bought dreadfleet knowing full well I would never play it in store, but I had friends who were interested and i think it paid off
i never bought space hulk because i knew i would not be able to play it soon after and had no friends who were interested

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I did own squats, they were chaos squats and were used in my old lost and the damned army
I spent months, more then a year making that lost and the damned army, converted every model and now its worthless
my mortal-beast-demon chaos fantasy army- worthless
my snotling army - worthless
feral orks, you get the idea
dont just assume you are the only one who had an army that was dropped completely
I have lots that I have no use for and never will again
things i spent so much time on and loved playing

I bought dreadfleet knowing full well I would never play it in store, but I had friends who were interested and i think it paid off
i never bought space hulk because i knew i would not be able to play it soon after and had no friends who were interested

So you use them in GW store as the army you bought them for still? You last post and this one seem offf some how.

no those armies have been shelved
my point was I was saying the one I used to go to, before i moved, seemed nicer then the ones described by many here
I don`t know if the one here is as nice, ive only been there once
and what do you mean, off somehow

 mattyrm wrote:
Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?

-Getting charged in relation to the british pound despite all my products being made and shipped from the US
-The atrocious behaviour of their managers and employees
-"historical exchange rates"
-Digital downloads that cost the same as the real copy
-Embargos
-Telling everyone they found a better cheaper material, then up the cost to the customer to pay for the molds and machines, thats like me charging my customers an extra $50 each to pay for a new stencil cutter.
-Yearly price rises
-Thier store policies killing communities and just being borderline facist
-The fact they are doing nothing to fix how they are seen, saying " you" I'll do it my way isnt a great way to keep people

 mattyrm wrote:
Do GW have short comings? Sure.

Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.

But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?

How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?

Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?

It has nothing to do with entitled, very few companies act like evil empires in the way GW does. It seems they go out of their way to screw with people and make it more difficult to buy from them and support them.

Mazda owes me nothing, but they've gone above and beyond to keep my car running perfectly, and when I go to buy a new version of my car it'll cost less because of trade in and LOYALTY rewards. I can buy a product at walmart, open it, decide its crap and return it without having some ass tell me I should buy Walmart green glue to fix it then giving me a hard time when I refuse.

Also, last time I checked if a car company makes a crap part they recall it for being complete junk, and will replace it with the better version for free.

 insaniak wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I hear what you're saying, but the fact that the GW tournament scene continues to grow is indicative of at least some growth in the player base.

No it isn't. All it indicates is that more people are playing in tournaments.

What I'm seeing a lot of these days is people who used to play in a store but that store closed down, or who used to play with a group of friends but the friends have all moved on, or who used to play at a gaming club but the club has either dwindled away or moved onto other games... and so they use tournaments as a way of getting in some sort of regular gaming. For a lot of these guys, where once they would be gaming every couple of weeks at worst, the tournies they enter are all the gaming they get to do.


That's not a sign of a healthy, growing community. It's the exact opposite of that.

It is most certainly not continuing to grow, its imploding, its been on the decline for 12 years now, I remember 240 man grand tournaments with constant monthly tournaments that pulled easily 30 people drop down to next to nothing, with the exception of adepticon the tournaments are dying. Which is sad, because outside of those you never see a properly painted army or a good general.

 cincydooley wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:

I have heard from multiple sources in the company that GW managers have assaulted employees and that GW employees have assaulted customers. Yeah, I would say they treat people like dirt.

Well this is one of the more absurd things I've read on dakka lately. Congrats!

It is not so absurd if you consider that their annual meetings involved the consumption of large amounts of alcohol, and living with more than one person to a room. In the stores redshirts were dropped in surprise games of punch buggy. Getting hit by an adult ex military guy is much different than getting hit by a kid.