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 Ravenous D wrote:

Also, last time I checked if a car company makes a crap part they recall it for being complete junk, and will replace it with the better version for free.

Actually, most auto companies release 'known issues' as secret 'service bulletins' which tell mechanics there is a flaw which needs to be fix but because it is not a recall, they force the customer to pay for the repairs. They do their best to avoid making it public so the cost of repairs is shouldered by the unwitting public.

Only time they do a recall is when they basically get caught or shamed into it either by the issue being dangerous or numerous that they can't ignore it. They are not issuing a recall out of the goodness of their heart, they are mostly forced to either by a government entity or the backlash would be too much to ignore.

Forgien car companies are notorious for this in the US and I have had a legal run-in with Volkswagen due to sensor failures being a known issue in service bulletin but forcing me to pay for the repairs because it was not a 'recall'. Took years of complaining before they finally issued a recall and I had grounds to get a refund for all my previous repairs.

So to claim other companies strive to release quality products and replace flaws free of cost is disingenuous... they almost never fix anything for free unless being forced to, especially non safety issues. It is actually the business model to release products which are flawed or break easily to justify replacement.

Well add that to another plus for mazda then, they replace all of those for me for free. Car is 7 years old with 320K on it and Ive only had to do the brakes a couple times.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Well add that to another plus for mazda then, they replace all of those for me for free. Car is 7 years old with 320K on it and Ive only had to do the brakes a couple times.

You probably paid a pretty up-front cost when you bought the car called a 'warranty' they don't do it for free. Or they forced you to get a warranty with an inflated cost of the car and financing.

Nothing is 'for free'. They are making a profit somewhere on the repairs in the long run across the market.

And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.

I wish their customer service included working on their game rules.

 cincydooley wrote:
And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.

I've heard their replacement of finecast models has become stricter in the last year or so, rather than no questions asked.

 cincydooley wrote:
And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.

Oh yeah? Guess you havent experienced their finecrap policy where they have to try and sell you liquid greenstuff and give you a hard time about it before returning it. They get to determine if its "returnable" or not. Plastic they've always been good on, but finecast? Nope, they are douchelords over that now.

 cincydooley wrote:
And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.

The law says they have to, and they are no better then most miniature companys.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!

Warmachine Weekend, Lock and Load, DieCon, TempleCon, AdeptiCon... I can keep going if you like.

Clearly you missed the "primary focus" part of my statement.

Two of the four are, TempleCon has 14 Warmachine tournaments in three days, and AdeptiCon runs as many WM/H tournaments as 40K (more if you don't count megabattles). Then we have GenCon, PAX, and other cons that hold numerous WM/H tournaments without requiring that the event be solely dedicated to the one system.

Have you actually been to adepticon?? The amount of people playing 40k there simply dwarfs the amount of people playing Warmahordes. And it isn't even close.

That's because they won't make the Warmachine events bigger even though they sell out really fast.

I think the size of warmachine events is about time constraints
more than anything else. Warmachine events play to a single
undefeated winner. It's hard to host single-day events beyond
64 (6 rounds) or 128 (7 rounds) people.

True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.

Oh yeah? Guess you havent experienced their finecrap policy where they have to try and sell you liquid greenstuff and give you a hard time about it before returning it. They get to determine if its "returnable" or not. Plastic they've always been good on, but finecast? Nope, they are douchelords over that now.

yeah I have refused, often to their faces to buy finecast because of that policy

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.

Oh yeah? Guess you haven't experienced their finecrap policy where they have to try and sell you liquid greenstuff and give you a hard time about it before returning it. They get to determine if its "returnable" or not. Plastic they've always been good on, but finecast? Nope, they are douchelords over that now.

yeah I have refused, often to their faces to buy finecast because of that policy

I think people are 'making up' this policy considering the 3 GWs near me all allow you to open and pre-inspect for flaws of all finecast stuff. They also inspect all blisters before put on the peg and send the damaged ones back to GW.

If it is flawed, they fix it... What I think you may find is people buy online from internet discounters then attempt to exchange in-store. Just like *every other company out there* if you have a failure with a product, you return it to the person who sold it to you.

I always find it funny how people who are so extreme in their hatred of GW and claim to never play there or shop there always seem to have these worst case scenario examples of them being in the store. I am sorry, I don't buy it because there is overwhelming evidence of GW having amazing customer service, even in relation to finecast.

And liquid GS is a product which has a great use regardless of Finecast and is useful for assembling metal and plastic models. I do not think there is an expectation to 'buy LGS' to fix the finecast yourself. They replace models frequently... And if you bought it from GW you then have your receipt unless you are attempting to execute fraud.

I`ve been playing GW games for 12 years now, and going to GW for 10 or so of them, I have seen many things and not just tossing out crap.
Though the GWs I went to were great to me, I was eventually priced out and moved on to other hobbies
I have seen the good and the bad. Perhaps I am jaded (I know I am jaded) by GWs changing over the years, how expensive its become, how much I dislike most of their games and complete ignoring of others and shoddy materials -if i wanted resin i`d just buy from forgeworld, where the kits are much nicer, and not that much more expensive nowadays
its hard to really explain i guess, about a feeling when youve seen a hobby you started as a kid turn and twist from something you liked and put so much into, to turn into something you disliked and what you once liked was gone or taken by rule changes, power gaming or just the natural progression.
Am I right about what I think, I donno, its my opinion though.
a hobby, to me, should be more then just buying something and thats the end of it. you have to commit to it, time, effort. Its fine and well GW wants to make money like any company in this world, if they didnt there`d be no Warhammer. But as it stands now, whats the intensive to want to buy, a company has to give you a reason, something to make you want to buy what they are selling.
With GW, to me, these days its seems like ``here buy this overpriced, flimsy resin model and play a game we blatantly shift rules to in favour of what we want to sell, then leave``
12 years into this, I still enjoy the models, I paint them all the time, but the games are borderline unplayable to me. This doesnt at all feel like a hobby, its just model kits that sit on a shelf, like my star trek ships.

I bought all my Finecast from a local store. Not allowed to open boxes to pre-inspect, everything goes on the shelf miscast or not, and in my experience it's not always easy to tell when you're getting a flawed model even when you can see through the blister window. I've had one or two where the majority of the flaws were on the non-visible side, or the way the sprues were stacked in the blister made it impossible to see much detail and you were just straight-up taking a risk by buying it.

When asked I was told if I had any issues to call GW about them. So much for "every company out there", I guess. Also nice to see people once again falling back on that same old bs, calling everyone liars because they personally haven't bought crap Finecast models. I thought we were over this by now.

 AduroT wrote:
True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.

I'm going to call BS on that one.

The team tourney has 400 some players and sells out within an hour or so.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I bought all my Finecast from a local store. Not allowed to open boxes to pre-inspect, everything goes on the shelf miscast or not, and in my experience it's not always easy to tell when you're getting a flawed model even when you can see through the blister window. I've had one or two where the majority of the flaws were on the non-visible side, or the way the sprues were stacked in the blister made it impossible to see much detail and you were just straight-up taking a risk by buying it.

When asked I was told if I had any issues to call GW about them. So much for "every company out there", I guess. Also nice to see people once again falling back on that same old bs, calling everyone liars because they personally haven't bought crap Finecast models. I thought we were over this by now.

When you buy a product, like a vacuum cleaner, or a stove, or some other item, if it is broken, you return it to the retailer you bought it from, not to the company who made the item. I don't know why there is expectation that somehow GW products differ.

I do like that people with an axe to grind can make up and 'define' what GW's policy is but when people have exact opposite experience which shows no such policy of 'keep your flawed product and buy Liquid GS and suck it up' it makes it extremely hard to believe. Especially when the LAW requires them to take it back, especially if you have a receipt and bought it in the store. You are allowed to return a flawed product and technically with a receipt, you could buy it, open it right there, find the flaw and demand a refund or exchange.

So for GW to have policies that break the law, doesn't sound truthful. I do believe people buy stuff online from discounters then attempt to exchange or return it to a different retailer from where they bought it and attempt to defraud GW or FLGS... and I would expect resistance from any store who feels the person is defrauding them.

If you bought it there and have a receipt, you can always get a replacement or refund.

I bought an Empire Witch Hunter and couldn't return it to the store I bought it from, he told me to contact GW because there was nothing he could really do about it.

 cincydooley wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.

I'm going to call BS on that one.

The team tourney has 400 some players and sells out within an hour or so.

It's the signature event of the convention

I've always been curious to see if PP players would come out for a 4-man team event
with character restrictions and various combinations. Could be hilarious.

The very first Finecast models I got were a box of incubi from my local (non-GW) store, and when I took the box to the counter to pay for it after clearly pulling it off the shelf in plain view of him, we got into a bit of chat about Finecast. He said he heard good things about it, I told him I saw some scary pictures online and wasn't quite so confident, and that was when he told me that if I did have any problems with my box to call GW about it, don't return it to them.

I don't know why that is honestly, but considering that GW has always been happy to fix any issues it was never really that big of a problem before Finecast. Anyway, I don't deal with GW stores, and it'll be a long time before I buy another Finecast model, so if their policies have changed or they do treat Finecast returns differently now I personally wouldn't know.

nkelsch wrote:When you buy a product, like a vacuum cleaner, or a stove, or some other item, if it is broken, you return it to the retailer you bought it from, not to the company who made the item. I don't know why there is expectation that somehow GW products differ.

That's strange, because I bought a wireless headset from Game Stop not too long ago and inside the package came a slip of paper that said "STOP: Do not return the product where you purchased it from. If you have questions setting up this product or experiencing any issues contact ______". Apparently it's not just GW products, and I'd care to wager it's not that uncommon of a thing, but most people probably take it back to the retailer regardless, and I imagine most retailers probably don't give them any hassle in the interest of good faith.

nkelsch wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I bought all my Finecast from a local store. Not allowed to open boxes to pre-inspect, everything goes on the shelf miscast or not, and in my experience it's not always easy to tell when you're getting a flawed model even when you can see through the blister window. I've had one or two where the majority of the flaws were on the non-visible side, or the way the sprues were stacked in the blister made it impossible to see much detail and you were just straight-up taking a risk by buying it.

When asked I was told if I had any issues to call GW about them. So much for "every company out there", I guess. Also nice to see people once again falling back on that same old bs, calling everyone liars because they personally haven't bought crap Finecast models. I thought we were over this by now.

When you buy a product, like a vacuum cleaner, or a stove, or some other item, if it is broken, you return it to the retailer you bought it from, not to the company who made the item. I don't know why there is expectation that somehow GW products differ.

I do like that people with an axe to grind can make up and 'define' what GW's policy is but when people have exact opposite experience which shows no such policy of 'keep your flawed product and buy Liquid GS and suck it up' it makes it extremely hard to believe. Especially when the LAW requires them to take it back, especially if you have a receipt and bought it in the store. You are allowed to return a flawed product and technically with a receipt, you could buy it, open it right there, find the flaw and demand a refund or exchange.

So for GW to have policies that break the law, doesn't sound truthful. I do believe people buy stuff online from discounters then attempt to exchange or return it to a different retailer from where they bought it and attempt to defraud GW or FLGS... and I would expect resistance from any store who feels the person is defrauding them.

If you bought it there and have a receipt, you can always get a replacement or refund.

My understanding of GWs finecast policy is they HAVE to replace it if you ask for it. That doesn't mean they will do it without question though.
The law might say they have to replace it but it does not stop them trying to tell you all it needs is a layer of liquid greenstuff or that the bubbles are added texture and would look cool (yes, this happened to me, the redshirt then told me "it seems unlikely the next one will meet your expectations either so why don't I just give you a refund").
We don't know their official policy but we do know from experience that they push fixing it (with liquid greenstuff) before swapping it for you.

As to the comment about returning things like vaccum cleaners to the store, not the company:

Alfndrate wrote: I bought an Empire Witch Hunter and couldn't return it to the store I bought it from, he told me to contact GW because there was nothing he could really do about it.

GW are trying to be the store and the company, in their perfect world people would only buy from them and not the "freeloading" 3rd party stores.

Yeah, perhaps independent retailers have to eat the costs and thus refer you to GW instead. Just guessing here, but I don't really know why else they'd do that.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Yeah, perhaps independent retailers have to eat the costs and thus refer you to GW instead. Just guessing here, but I don't really know why else they'd do that.

I have a theory GW forces flgs to send customers to them with these complaints because GW thinks flgs are evil.
I know that with finecast if I have to buy it I'll do it in a GW store to get it replaced there and then. It's probably a cynical viewpoint but I wouldn't be surprised if that was exactly their intention.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Since when do wifebeaters sit down and have a chat with their spouse about how they're feeling?

I know you're trying to make a legitimate point about people (let's not call GW customers "victims") who find themselves in negative situations and spend their energy justifying their actions (let's not call it complicity) instead of leaving, but could we please really not go this far? GW customers are still customers, not victims, not without agency, not comparable to battered wives. You can call it Stockholm Syndrome. You can call it a scam. Just please don't lower the level of discourse by comparing a customer who buys overpriced goods from a hostile store to a victim of actual abuse.

If anyone's going to lower the discourse around here, it should be me.

Thank you.

 cincydooley wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.

I'm going to call BS on that one.

The team tourney has 400 some players and sells out within an hour or so.

Doesn't the selling out within the hour thing kind of make my point that they could probably sell a lot more if there wasn't a limit?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Since when do wifebeaters sit down and have a chat with their spouse about how they're feeling?

I know you're trying to make a legitimate point about people (let's not call GW customers "victims") who find themselves in negative situations and spend their energy justifying their actions (let's not call it complicity) instead of leaving, but could we please really not go this far? GW customers are still customers, not victims, not without agency, not comparable to battered wives. You can call it Stockholm Syndrome. You can call it a scam. Just please don't lower the level of discourse by comparing a customer who buys overpriced goods from a hostile store to a victim of actual abuse.

If anyone's going to lower the discourse around here, it should be me.

Thank you.

Very well said.

The very small minority of really vitriolic haters (I can only think of maybe 4 or 5 guys) on here call even me, a guy who doesn't own any finecast, hates white dwarf, thinks half of what the company do is stupid, and has dropped more than 50% of his mini spending the last 2 years on Mantic, a "white knight" (not a term Id heard before coming here) simply because I debate the point with them.

I debate the point with them, not because I even like GW, but because I really hate their gak attitude. It started when I first got here and I saw a couple of them ripping the piss out of one poster and slapping each other on the back as they were needlessly rude to someone just because he dared to disagree with them about how much of a disgusting company Games Workshop is.

They grind my gears for the exact same reason that you have just posted.

There really is no need for the vitriol and hate, and as a result I like to lock horns with them. Comparing Games Workshop trying hard to sell their toys/having a somewhat incompetent upper echelon of management (I probably even agree with them on that one!) with "treating people like dirt" or battered wives or rape victims or any of the other stupid gak they come out with is not only cringingly pathetic, its fething offensive to the vast majority of people.. that is, the 99% of people who frequent the board who treat the hobby as it should be treated, a pleasant past time, and not a crippling addiction that you love so much you also kind of hate it.

As Ive said, it seems to me the term plastic crack is a good one, because the people that act in such a manner really do remind me of heroin addicts, (they get so angry because they both love and hate GW/heroin at the same time) and frankly I fear for their mental health.

Anyone who owns 38,000 points worth of GW models, but spends all day raging about the company that sold them it.. I mean really.. is it any different from a junkie who knows that Heroin is utterly destroying his health and life, but will rob his own mother to get some?

 mattyrm wrote:


Very well said.

The very small minority of really vitriolic haters (I can only think of maybe 4 or 5 guys) on here call even me, a guy who doesn't own any finecast, hates white dwarf, thinks half of what the company do is stupid, and has dropped more than 50% of his mini spending the last 2 years on Mantic, a "white knight" (not a term Id heard before coming here) simply because I debate the point with them.

I debate the point with them, not because I even like GW, but because I really hate their gak attitude. It started when I first got here and I saw a couple of them ripping the piss out of one poster and slapping each other on the back as they were needlessly rude to someone just because he dared to disagree with them about how much of a disgusting company Games Workshop is.

They grind my gears for the exact same reason that you have just posted.

There really is no need for the vitriol and hate, and as a result I like to lock horns with them. Comparing Games Workshop trying hard to sell their toys/having a somewhat incompetent upper echelon of management (I probably even agree with them on that one!) with "treating people like dirt" or battered wives or rape victims or any of the other stupid gak they come out with is not only cringingly pathetic, its fething offensive to the vast majority of people.. that is, the 99% of people who frequent the board who treat the hobby as it should be treated, a pleasant past time, and not a crippling addiction that you love so much you also kind of hate it.

As Ive said, it seems to me the term plastic crack is a good one, because the people that act in such a manner really do remind me of heroin addicts, (they get so angry because they both love and hate GW/heroin at the same time) and frankly I fear for their mental health.

Anyone who owns 38,000 points worth of GW models, but spends all day raging about the company that sold them it.. I mean really.. is it any different from a junkie who knows that Heroin is utterly destroying his health and life, but will rob his own mother to get some?

Damn, man, I think you just summed up my feelings exactly. I've kind of given up posting here, aside from P&M Logs, cause it's just too negative to waste my time on.

Kind of funny when you call this out, the argument is, "I don't have to like the company to like 40k." Yet they also precede to bash the backstory, model releases, book releases, writers, play-testers, magazine writers, editors, contributors, facebook pages, CEOs, accountants, executives, store managers and fulltime and parttime general employees across the board, and I wonder what is left for them to like.

Don't let a tiny minority drag you down.. Have you seen the guy in the paper model thread who said he is quitting because of all the ridiculous elitism of people who won't play against a well made paper model?

But the poll shows that 90% of people would play against them!

I'm telling you this to illustrate the point, I think people tend to remember the bad and forget the good!

Don't let a tiny minority drive you from a site you enjoy, just interact with the cool guys like me!

 mattyrm wrote:
Anyone who owns 38,000 points worth of GW models, but spends all day raging about the company that sold them it.. I mean really.. is it any different from a junkie who knows that Heroin is utterly destroying his health and life, but will rob his own mother to get some?

You compliment someone for trying to avoid the abusive husband analogy, and then run over to the drug addict analogy?

Classy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Starfarer wrote:
Kind of funny when you call this out, the argument is, "I don't have to like the company to like 40k." Yet they also precede to bash the backstory, model releases, book releases, writers, play-testers, magazine writers, editors, contributors, facebook pages, CEOs, accountants, executives, store managers and fulltime and parttime general employees across the board, and I wonder what is left for them to like.

What a tremendous over-simplification.

Gold star!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Anyone who owns 38,000 points worth of GW models, but spends all day raging about the company that sold them it.. I mean really.. is it any different from a junkie who knows that Heroin is utterly destroying his health and life, but will rob his own mother to get some?

You compliment someone for trying to avoid the abusive husband analogy, and then run over to the drug addict analogy?

Classy.

You choose to take heroin.

You don't choose to be raped or abused.

Makes perfect sense to me.

I figured you wouldn't like it though...

How much have you given the company you utterly despise over the years?

20 grand? More?

I think anyone who can read is going to know which of us is the most impartial and as a result, logical on this topic.

Further more, why do you get so pissed when people like me mention it? I'm not having a go at you, I agree with a great many of your complaints, and fully concede that GW would be a better company if they listened to the community more, but you are not a stupid guy, you must be aware that this topic illicits an emotional response from you because you are so passionate about the hobby?

You are even trying to sarcastically mock the bloke above me who just said he's practically quit the site due to the incessant rage....cut him some slack eh?