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 mattyrm wrote:
You choose to take heroin.

Just to make a point, there are some who don't.

Rather than speculate I just asked my local manager what the policy on Finecast is.

He said that there were recognised issues with the first few runs but that a studio painter/modeller and previous Golden Daemon winner had taken over the QC and development of Finecast in order to make it up to his standards. GW want to make it the best it can be.

If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.

He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different.

So he will replace models that have mold shifts or bubbles on faces and areas of detail and broken components- things that take more than 5 minnutes of effort to fix.
But a space marine leg with a few pits or bubbles takes 2 minutes of applying liquid greenstuff or super glue and doesn't need to be replaced.

 Lorizael wrote:
Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process

Games Workshop wrote:Games Workshop has always innovated and sought to increase the quality of our models - Citadel Finecast is the next step in that process. There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world, and we're proud and very excited for you all to see this for yourselves.

Games Workshop's Finecast release announcement. From this you could be forgiven for thinking that you could expect to get a model which isn't covered in air bubbles. I know none of the resin models I have got from other companies have come with air bubbles. Except for a Forge World model that I have actually... Hmmm...

I'll be getting about 200 resin models from Reaper next year in their new material so we can have a look and see if there is a marked difference in quality or not between two companies doing large scale releases of some new and some models in a new material

I personally love Finecast. Metal was gak. Paint easily fell off and you had no possibility to alter positions etc. Finecast allows for easy modifications and a better level of detail. Then again, I don't have many finecast miniatures...the price is a big turn-off.

 Lorizael wrote:
Rather than speculate I just asked my local manager what the policy on Finecast is.

He said that there were recognised issues with the first few runs but that a studio painter/modeller and previous Golden Daemon winner had taken over the QC and development of Finecast in order to make it up to his standards. GW want to make it the best it can be.

If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.

He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different.

So he will replace models that have mold shifts or bubbles on faces and areas of detail and broken components- things that take more than 5 minnutes of effort to fix.
But a space marine leg with a few pits or bubbles takes 2 minutes of applying liquid greenstuff or super glue and doesn't need to be replaced.

Unfortunately local managers (redshirts) don't know anything. They are regularly getting things wrong and must have been told to downplay the finecast problem, I have been told the miscast rate is only 1 in 10 (in my personal experience I am 10/12 on miscasts and no one I know personally has had any better luck than 3/4).

And I agree that a few bubbles on flat surfaces are no worse than removing the flash from plastic and to be expected, I don't call it a miscast unless I am forced to resculpt something or it is COVERED in bubbles.

*edit*

Sigvatr wrote:I personally love Finecast. Metal was gak. Paint easily fell off and you had no possibility to alter positions etc. Finecast allows for easy modifications and a better level of detail. Then again, I don't have many finecast miniatures...the price is a big turn-off.

I actually like the material too, I hated metal. The problem is that they can't get the casting right.

 Lorizael wrote:

If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.
.

Buy online, under the distance selling regulations you can return any goods you buy online upto 7 working days after you received the item for any reason, you don't even have to pay for return postage.

 jonolikespie wrote:
And I agree that a few bubbles on flat surfaces are no worse than removing the flash from plastic and to be expected, I don't call it a miscast unless I am forced to resculpt something or it is COVERED in bubbles.

*edit*

Sigvatr wrote:I personally love Finecast. Metal was gak. Paint easily fell off and you had no possibility to alter positions etc. Finecast allows for easy modifications and a better level of detail. Then again, I don't have many finecast miniatures...the price is a big turn-off.

I actually like the material too, I hated metal. The problem is that they can't get the casting right.

Same here, on both counts. I didn't mind Finecast replacing metal until it became apparent the issues with quality would never go away, and if anything GW seems keen to keep telling us this is how it's "supposed" to be, judging from what Lorizael told us.

One or two holes in a model are fine. But most models I've seen and purchased for myself are literally covered in them. That's not "part of the casting process" no matter how you try and spin it.

Palindrome wrote:Buy online

I thought about it, just to see if the models I got were any better than what my local store has on offer, but I'd rather give my local store the business if at all possible, and at the end of the day the stuff is still way overpriced anyway. Personally I'm starting to think I'm better off not bothering with it at all.

If GW says that finecast is going to be, er, fine, then that's good enough for me!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If GW says that finecast is going to be, er, fine, then that's good enough for me!

The problem is there is no reason to believe them. We have been hearing "the problems are with the first few waves, they are being sorted out" for well over a year now.

 mattyrm wrote:
Don't let a tiny minority drag you down.. Have you seen the guy in the paper model thread who said he is quitting because of all the ridiculous elitism of people who won't play against a well made paper model?

But the poll shows that 90% of people would play against them!

I'm telling you this to illustrate the point, I think people tend to remember the bad and forget the good!

Don't let a tiny minority drive you from a site you enjoy, just interact with the cool guys like me!

It certainly wont affect my enjoyment of the hobby. I've been playing or collecting for going on 16 years, with a few hiatuses over the years. I've just learned it's easier to stick to P&M logs, as that's what I enjoy most, and the tacticians and global corporate finance execs can have the rest of the site.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:



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 Starfarer wrote:
Kind of funny when you call this out, the argument is, "I don't have to like the company to like 40k." Yet they also precede to bash the backstory, model releases, book releases, writers, play-testers, magazine writers, editors, contributors, facebook pages, CEOs, accountants, executives, store managers and fulltime and parttime general employees across the board, and I wonder what is left for them to like.

What a tremendous over-simplification.

Gold star!

It's a simple response to the complaining I see on this site. ALL of the things I listed above are complained about by people here, and while I can understand and appreciate some of the issues people take with the company, when all of these things are unappealing to someone, I think don't think it is insincere to ask why that person would bother participating at all when so much of what they claim to like makes them so angry. I think those people would be better suited finding a game they enjoy more, like so many PP and Infinity players have done, to use an example. Just don't pretend their was some personal relationship with the company and they wronged you by changing policy or their product. We are all GW's consumers, not their old drinking buddies.

 Lorizael wrote:

If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.

He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different.

Maybe GW should look at other resin manufacturers who don't even need to charge £12-15 for a single 28mm figure and still produce stuff without the issues of Finecast.

'Bends' are sometimes easy to correct, and sometimes not. Some miscasts that have appeared online display not just a simple bend but they have an actual deformity, likely caused by being pulled from the mould too quickly. They won't straighten out, they are deformed or stretched out of position. The bubbles can be filled depending on where they occur, but they frequently occur in places where the mould has trouble flowing. They don't occur in the middle of smooth areas but on the tips of detail, corners and edges, which are not easily remedied. And again, GW put up the prices significantly to pay for this improved material and now seem reticent to replace substandard product as they once did, now being quicker to criticise the customer's expectations as 'unrealistic' and that they only pose challenges like other models. Well for the prices GW charge, I think you would expect less imperfections, or at least at the same level of quality as their metal castings. I mean really, did you ever hear of people being given repeated duff replacements with metal models?

Regards fc, has it actually gotten better?

I've not bought anything in it due to me only having one army and not needing any more HQs or sternguard.. But the complaints seem less, have they squared their gak away a little better with quality control?


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Although i have to add..i needed a termie librarian back when fc first came out, and due to the amount of negative press bought a scibor librarian librarian equivalent off wayland and it was actually more expensive.

So i don't think high prices is exclusive to games workshop either!

I don't know, whenever I look though a rack I can see evidence bubbles, though never the twisted monstrosities that have surfaced online as examples of the very worst.

But it's still a bit of a risk laying out £45 on something like the boxed white council and getting four finecast figures blind. And if I were paying that sort of money, yes I would expect near perfection actually...

i don't see a propblem here.

If you don't like what GW are doing, or how much they charge for their prices then don't buy their stuff.

Find a better alternative, these days it's not like GW is the only company out there.

Or buy second hand.

Personlly I do not like the direction GW have taken with their games, or their business model, i am also to poor to affoard their models, instead I write rules for my gaming group and we source cheaper models. If i remeber there was threead listing links to alternative 40k sites.

If anyone tells me they are going to get into it i will warn them against it and show them the other alternatives.

GW don't need a community rep. They are all about the 'new player' and as they change their game every few years keep putting new stuff out, if the community as a whole didn't like it they wouldn't buy it but as we have seen, people buy it. A lot.


Alternativly you can keep buying GW's stuff and maoning about it, but in my mind thats pretty idiotic.
why do they need a community rep when sales are what tells them they are doing well?

Smaller companies need a commnuity rep, espcially if thye havn't any shops, since they have to get their product 'out there' in order to sell stuff and get their product known to the community. GW are already know to the wider community so they do not need a rep. A rep isn't about 'liasing with the communtiy*; a rep is a market researcher and advertiser in one.

*Liasing with the community - Activly seeking to find out what the community as a general want from the company and getting the companies product noticed and into the wider community in order to wident he customer base and sell more product.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Yeah, perhaps independent retailers have to eat the costs and thus refer you to GW instead. Just guessing here, but I don't really know why else they'd do that.

Its because trying to get a return out of GW sales reps is like getting blood from a stone and you yourself must pay to ship the items back. Whole process takes 3 weeks, its designed to be a huge pain in the ass by GW. So its easier just to say "go to/call GW they'll send you a new one"

If you really want to see GWs shady practices go to your LGS and get a "direct only" item shipped to the store (most LGS can do so), in the same day do the same from GW, the GW one will be there in a week, the LGS will be there in 6 weeks or never.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

1: these forums are rarely a serious discussion area. too many players act as if GW does a disservice to them for not wholly supporting their occupation. GW is not in that business.

I am not in the business of 24/7 public relations for GW. It's not my job to constantly uncritically praise everything they do and buy their products like a zombie.

I've gotten two boxes of Finecast Wracks from GW. The first box was the Worst quality casted kit I have Ever seen. Parts broken off. So Much Detail Missing. One model even had some random piece of plastic bisecting the head front from back. Called and got a replacement with no problem, and the replacement was probably one of the best quality cast kits I've seen. Almost no determinable defects.

I don't like the material though, too soft for my preferences.

 Lorizael wrote:
Rather than speculate I just asked my local manager what the policy on Finecast is.

He said that there were recognised issues with the first few runs but that a studio painter/modeller and previous Golden Daemon winner had taken over the QC and development of Finecast in order to make it up to his standards. GW want to make it the best it can be.

If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.

He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different.

So he will replace models that have mold shifts or bubbles on faces and areas of detail and broken components- things that take more than 5 minnutes of effort to fix.
But a space marine leg with a few pits or bubbles takes 2 minutes of applying liquid greenstuff or super glue and doesn't need to be replaced.

I can't believe this isn't being more commented upon, as this view, presumably faithfully reported, represents a gobsmacking lowering of standards.

First, let's address the point of "some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate";

Andy Hall: Last week we announced something very special - so special in fact that it's nothing less than a new era in wargaming, as we launch the highest quality miniatures the world has ever seen - Citadel Finecast.

Wow, that's quite a statement isn't it? Nonetheless, it is very true. On the 28th of May we launch Citadel Finecast, miniatures of such exquisite detail that they are the closest representation of the sculptors' original that we have ever been able to make. Until you hold one in your hand and see it for yourself, it's hard to describe just how detailed they are.

So, what are Citadel Finecast miniatures and why are we making the change? Quite simply, Citadel Finecast is the next step in the evolution in tabletop miniatures wargaming. From the start, Games Workshop has always innovated and sought to increase the quality of our models - Citadel Finecast is the next step in that process. There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world, and we're proud and very excited for you all to see this for yourselves.

Go and read that page, it goes on and on, piling virtues on finecast that would make a politician blush. So to blame the customer for believing their own press, their statements like "There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world, and we're proud and very excited for you all to see this for yourselves" seems little less then contemptuous.

Beyond that, the idea that "Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects"... I cannot believe any consumer could reconcile that with the purchase of a "premium" product. Could you imagine KD replying that way when you reported such a flaw? Studio McVey? RedBox? Dreamforge? They would be pilloried, and rightly so.

 AduroT wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.

I'm going to call BS on that one.

The team tourney has 400 some players and sells out within an hour or so.

Doesn't the selling out within the hour thing kind of make my point that they could probably sell a lot more if there wasn't a limit?

I was talking about the 40k team tourney by the way.

 Lorizael wrote:
If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.

Yeah, about that...

Bent weapons are not a problem, so long as the material doesn't mind being reshaped, and stays reshaped.

But air bubbles? Yes, technically they're a part of the casting process... in the same way that pitting is a part of the process with metal. But it's a part that tells you that you're doing something wrong.

If the model has air bubbles, that means that the resin didn't completely fill the mould. That's a defect.

Honesty, do you not think that slagging GW off for the wording on their statements is just really silly?

It's fething advertising!

Of course they will say finecast is wonderful and amazing.. I mean, that's the way all companies work.

Have you read the menu in Dennys? Or seen a Ford commercial? Or read a holiday brochure?

Advertising people bs. It's not even remotely a GW issue, in fact, I'd say that the exact same level of nonsense is practiced by every company ever.

It's ridiculously dishonest to try and say otherwise.. Watch an infomercial for a swivel sweeper or a blender or a juicer or a frigging... Dog brush, and you will see way more lofty claims than "our sometimes sub standard and occasionally holey resin is actually totally awesome"

It was the method they used to introduce us to Finecast, so why shouldn't they be called on it?

And claims in advertisement are tested in courts - so they actually only say things they can support.

I don't recall having seen anything they put out subsequently as an official statement along the lines of "sorry, we dropped the ball and our finecast quality has been horrific - we are working to make this better and would like to say sorry to those people who were excited for our new release and got sub-standard product."

Instead we got something like: "WOW! SUPER NEW LIQUID GREEN STUFF TO USE WITH OUR SUPER AWESOME FINECAST TO FILL THAT REALISTIC BATTLE DAMAGE (TM) THAT WE DELIBERATELY CAST INTO OUR FINECAST MODELS!"

 mattyrm wrote:
Honesty, do you not think that slagging GW off for the wording on their statements is just really silly?

It's fething advertising!

And advertisers are accountable for their claims.

Yes, a certain amount of hyperbole is to be expected, but it's not unreasonable when a company advertises their product as the best thing ever, to expect some degree of quality. This isn't just GW saying 'our product is fantastic' and it maybe not being quite that good. This is GW claiming to be producing the best miniatures on the planet in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

As an aside, don't assume that the dislike for this advertising method is confined solely to GW. Some of us are equally disapproving of any other companies making grandiose claims that they can't actually back up.

Have you read the menu in Dennys? Or seen a Ford commercial? Or read a holiday brochure?

Have you seen a Ford commercial that claimed that theirs was the best car ever built, and subsequently bought one to find that it was mis-shapen and full of holes? And then had Ford tell you that this was an unavoidable side-effect of the production process, and try to sell you a product to fix it yourself?

There's advertising, and there's just outright fabrication. GW's claims about 'Fine'cast are so severely divorced from reality that it's not even funny. If GW were selling a more mainstream product, I rather strongly suspect that an advertising regulator would have taken them to task over their claims about just how fantastic the product is.

 mattyrm wrote:
Honesty, do you not think that slagging GW off for the wording on their statements is just really silly?

It's fething advertising!

Of course they will say finecast is wonderful and amazing.. I mean, that's the way all companies work.

Have you read the menu in Dennys? Or seen a Ford commercial? Or read a holiday brochure?

Advertising people bs. It's not even remotely a GW issue, in fact, I'd usay that the exact same level of nonsense is practiced by every company ever.

It's ridiculously dishonest to try and say otherwise.. Watch an infomercial for a swivel sweeper or a blender or a juicer or a frigging... Dog brush, and you will see way more lofty claims than "our sometimes sub standard and occasionally holey resin is actually totally awesome"

Not quite accurate.

There's a distinct line between portraying a product in its best possible light and misrepresentation.

To my mind Finecast flirts dangerously with that line, as it isn't close to being what GW claim it us. The potential is there, but the production method seems too flawed and GW totally unmotivated to fix it.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Instead we got something like: "WOW! SUPER NEW LIQUID GREEN STUFF TO USE WITH OUR SUPER AWESOME FINECAST TO FILL THAT REALISTIC BATTLE DAMAGE (TM) THAT WE DELIBERATELY CAST INTO OUR FINECAST MODELS!"

To be 100% completely honest, I think Liquid Green Stuff just gets tarred with the same brush as Finecast because of the release window.
I, personally, do not believe that it was ever meant to be a "solution" to the problems with Finecast.

I don't think even GW would stoop that low.

insaniak wrote:

 Lorizael wrote:
If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.

Yeah, about that...

Bent weapons are not a problem, so long as the material doesn't mind being reshaped, and stays reshaped.

But air bubbles? Yes, technically they're a part of the casting process... in the same way that pitting is a part of the process with metal. But it's a part that tells you that you're doing something wrong.

If the model has air bubbles, that means that the resin didn't completely fill the mould. That's a defect.

Precisely.

mattyrm wrote:...

Contrary to what you appear to believe, there are legal consequences for statements and representations of quality made in advertising. But let's assume, arguendo, that statements made by GW should be treated as outright falsehoods untempered by even the slightest connection to reality.

Even if we assume that, their statement to Lorizael should take your breath away. Because, as insaniak correctly observes, they are selling defective goods. Or, to be more legalistic about it, they are selling unmerchantable goods and then telling their customers that expecting merchantable goods is unreasonable. "He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate".

Their outlook (as reported by Lorizael) appears to be that defects are not problems, but a feature, as if selling the consumer a first quality product is somehow inauthentic.

Bam exalted


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was the method they used to introduce us to Finecast, so why shouldn't they be called on it?

Thats the real stinker, they flat out told us its cheaper in some cases 1/10th the cost, then when we saw the prices they said "oh thats for the molds, we spent a lot of money on those". They passed their debt to us to pay out of our pockets, not theirs, If that isnt a dick move I dont know what is.

 mattyrm wrote:

You choose to take heroin.

You don't choose to be raped or abused.

Makes perfect sense to me.

In actuality addicts and abused spouses usually have many things in common. The addict is dependent on the substance. The abused spouse is usually codependent on the abusive party and thus does not want to leave.

Also, although you may choose to take a drug, you do not choose to be addicted. Some people are and some are not.

I think that it is clear that GW would benefit from having a community representative, that is what PR and spin is all about. The fact that they do not speaks volumes about what they think of us.