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 insaniak wrote:
For starters, nobody would be 'suing' GW for false advertising. There are advertising regulators who take care of that if they receive enough complaints about a particular product and the way it is being promoted.

Fine, replace "suing" with "taking legal action" if that's the route you see it going. The point is that there's no grounds for it.

Secondly, thinking that one company is falsely representing their product in no way equates to thinking that they are the only company that is doing so.

Look, the simple fact is that everyone bends the truth a bit in advertising. Do you really think that your local burger place is being entirely honest about their "best ever" FineBurgers? Of course not, everyone (including their management) knows they're selling fast food that's mediocre at best. But no court or regulatory agency is ever going to do anything about that kind of advertising because it's just how things work.

For GW to be in any danger of lawsuits/fines/etc they'd have to go well beyond that standard level of truth-bending and start making objectively false claims. They wouldn't be alone in doing it, but they'd be part of a pretty small group.

Fine cast is a good example on how a community representative would be totally useless because no matter how you sugar coat it its the worst material and casting in the industry... and speaking of publicity well GW does not use publicity or advertisement, I mean a statement on their own stores or site is like a grain on sand on the advertisement universe. So it's really more a totally irrelevant inhouse memorandum with all the BS and self praising than actually publicity to outsiders.
From the way I see it it's damn funny how detached from reality these companies work.

Someone asked why GW should be aware of the competitors? Are you really making that question or just making a argument for the sake of it? Heck even deluded GW tries to swallow others IP's and deliver C&D to any small company to shut it down... thats being aware of competition ( well in the wrong way of awareness but still )

As for the profits thing, no one knows do we? I mean Shrinking stores, staff, tournaments, royalties on games, movies have influence on that final number... assuming profits means more popular and that miniatures sales are growing is being naive.

 mattyrm wrote:

But as I've repeated several times, the point is not that GW are being honest regards their advertising, it's because... GW piss you off.

I've paraphrased the quote here, but sadly I think this is it or all about it.

I don't think anyone likes what happened because it represents a lowering of standards; that was passed off as something else, and that most likely a huge percentage of (especially younger or less experienced) gamers bought into it and accepted GW's marketing spiel despite the opposite being the case.

The important thing here is that (despite these arguments about GW being in the right or the wrong) those who access the Dakka community or other websites like it have been warned about Finecast, and perhaps haven't lost money as a result, or at least know to check their purchases. So the community has had some influence and positive affect on the wargaming industry in general, when looking at the wider view.

 Peregrine wrote:
Fine, replace "suing" with "taking legal action" if that's the route you see it going. The point is that there's no grounds for it.

Semantics won't get you anywhere...

Press releases isn't advertising per se. It's PR and also used to gather interest in the company stock. So usually it's covered under different (or no) standards than advertising.

Regarding the OP, I guess that their organization just isn't set up to have a governing body giving rulings on the fly. Of course, they also have to find someone that has skin thick enough to handle Dakka and pay them enough to actually make it worth sifting through all the crap.

GW plc does not have a community representative because its prime demoghraphic is not a community.

Games companies have a 'gaming community' to engage with..

Collectable minature companies have a 'collecting community' to engage with.

When you sell toy soldiers to children , you just make them 'shiney' and its job done...

insaniak wrote:

Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Who was claiming that they were?

Anyone who thinks that it's possible, or even close to possible, to successfully sue GW for false advertising. For that to be possible their marketing claims would have to go well beyond the general (and entirely legal) level of "our FineBurgers are the best ever!" optimism.

That makes no sense.

For starters, nobody would be 'suing' GW for false advertising. There are advertising regulators who take care of that if they receive enough complaints about a particular product and the way it is being promoted.

Secondly, thinking that one company is falsely representing their product in no way equates to thinking that they are the only company that is doing so.

Your second point is quite correct, but your first point is slightly off: while the FTC could certainly step in, in the US the end consumer would also have legal recourse against GW, if they felt that their purchase was sufficiently divergent from the claims represented it. That said, owing to the small individual exposure, the only case likely would be something along the lines of a class action, and given the possible recovery, barring a hobbyist attorney with an ax to grind, such an action seems unlikely.

mattyrm wrote:...

But as I've repeated several times, the point is not that GW are being honest regards their advertising....

I have now presented you with the legal standards as they pertain to the US, and how they precisely prohibit dishonesty, as opposed to mere puffery. You seem either unwilling or unable to recognize the difference between incorrect statements of fact and mere puffery, or even that such a distinction exists (in the words of the court, "Puffery and statements of fact are mutually exclusive..."). As this is the singularly important feature of such legal matters, there seems little profit in continuing this line of discussion.

However, this discussion of the precise legalities seems to be a bit tangential to the issue at hand. Barring someone with a chunk of disposable income deciding to test GW in court, nothing along these lines is anything more then an academic discussion. More specifically, the theoretical legal issues are obscuring the amazing report by Lorizael;

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Lorizael wrote:
...

If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.

He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different.

So he will replace models that have mold shifts or bubbles on faces and areas of detail and broken components- things that take more than 5 minnutes of effort to fix.
But a space marine leg with a few pits or bubbles takes 2 minutes of applying liquid greenstuff or super glue and doesn't need to be replaced.

I can't believe this isn't being more commented upon, as this view, presumably faithfully reported, represents a gobsmacking lowering of standards.
...

Beyond that, the idea that "Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects"... I cannot believe any consumer could reconcile that with the purchase of a "premium" product. Could you imagine KD replying that way when you reported such a flaw? Studio McVey? RedBox? Dreamforge? They would be pilloried, and rightly so.

EDIT:

Lanrak wrote:
GW plc does not have a community representative because its prime demoghraphic is not a community.

Games companies have a 'gaming community' to engage with..

Collectable minature companies have a 'collecting community' to engage with.

When you sell toy soldiers to children , you just make them 'shiney' and its job done...

Heh, Lanrak cuts to the truth with far fewer words and far less diversion then I did. Well put!

 Peregrine wrote:
Look, the simple fact is that everyone bends the truth a bit in advertising.

Everyone does not.

Many advertisers do, certainly... but they do so within certain rules. You seem to be suggesting that the fact that 'everyone' does it proves that nobody ever breaks those rules... which is very definitely not the case. Advertisers do from time to time get pulled up for crossing the line. And quite often, whether or not a rule is broken comes down to nothing more than a poorly chosen word in the ad. To use your example, in advertising-speak calling your product as the 'best ever' is a very, very different statement to calling it 'the best in the world'.

And while companies will often make the former claim, the latter is one that is used very rarely, unless there is some sort of empirical data that can back it up... because in a slightly less niche industry, one of the company's competitors would be quick to jump on the claim and prove it wrong, in order to force the removal of that advertisement.

The fact that 'everyone bends the truth' does not in any way prove that GW's patently false claim of the best quality resin miniatures in the world doesn't cross the line.

I can't honestly think of one company that shamelessly call their product "the highest quality [product] the world has ever seen".

Sure, I've heard "ground breaking", "revolutionary" and "our best one yet" and even "better than other companies equivalents" which are all things that can be argued and sweet talked for.

GWs description of Finecast would be objectively untrue. And according to Swedish law at least, that is illegal.

Press releases != advertising. What you write on your companies website != advertising. So according to swedish advertising standards/laws you are fine.

The black shirt I spoke to did say that if a customer is truly unhappy then he will always replace a model irrespective of the actual or perceived flaws. He said that any staffer should do the same as customer service is the most important thing to GW. Everyone should leave a GW store happy if it is within the manager's sphere of influence. Some people will always be unhappy...

I guess it all depends on what you expect or want from finecast. I'm used to spending a long time clearing off flash and filling in gaps when assembling metal miniatures.
Finecast in comparison is amazing- it's quicker and easier to work with and has less flash & mould lines.
Heating and bending a curved staff or filling in an air bubble or 2 on a flat surface is no issue to me and is part of the 'modelling process' that I expect when assembling any model.

Why does GW not have a community representative?

"Not only must the message be correctly delivered, but the messenger himself must be such as to recommend it to acceptance." Joseph Barber Lightfoot.

 Lorizael wrote:
The black shirt I spoke to did say that if a customer is truly unhappy then he will always replace a model irrespective of the actual or perceived flaws. He said that any staffer should do the same as customer service is the most important thing to GW. Everyone should leave a GW store happy if it is within the manager's sphere of influence. Some people will always be unhappy...

I guess it all depends on what you expect or want from finecast. I'm used to spending a long time clearing off flash and filling in gaps when assembling metal miniatures.
Finecast in comparison is amazing- it's quicker and easier to work with and has less flash & mould lines.
Heating and bending a curved staff or filling in an air bubble or 2 on a flat surface is no issue to me and is part of the 'modelling process' that I expect when assembling any model.

So when we get down to brass tack we have another Dakka storm in a tea cup issue!

FC is workable and sticks beautifully with superglue, where i do differ from general consensus is that I have not had a problem with the five models I have bought (admittedly all directly from GW stores after close inspection). The sword on the Lord Commisar is a bit flexible being my biggest issue but no more than I have also found on the grey knight plastic kit swords.

As for GW service always exemplary for me. You go in/call and you pretty much get what you ask for, allot other shops in the uk I find you have the throw a few feths around before you get what you are actually entitled to.

Hi notprop.
GW plc are eager to replace any product instead of a full refund on the purchase price, as it is far cheaper for them to do so.(Actual cost of manufacture is less than 25% of retail.)
And they have to refund purchase price or replace any item that is defective by law.

And the premium price they charge for the' best models soldiers in the world'.Its not surprising if customers expect perfection...

Can you let me know what stores -companies have caused you to 'throw a few feths' around?

I we all would like to avoid them!

I am lucky as I never had any poor customer service in the last decade from any company I have dealt with.So to me GW plc customer service is pretty much what I expect from a company.
Not 'exemplary' , but expected.

Its just a pity GW plc can not be bothered to support their game systems and rule sets like other companies do.

Perhaps if they did ,a GW gamer community rep might stand a chance...

yeah playtesting is a concept they don't seem to do anymore

They DO playtest. They DON'T get random people on the interwebz to playtest. They probably playtest it themselves or playtest within a small group of outside people. As GW peeps aren't exactly known for being no. 1 tournament players, there are loads of flaws.

That's all well and good that they can replace Finecast, but it would've been avoided if they don't need replacement in the first place. And how about us countries that don't have GW stores? I need to wait at least a month for a replacement to arrive, and if it's subpar I need to wait at least a month again. Even one month of waiting for a replacement that MIGHT be up to scratch is not enough to justify the time wasted waiting for the model to arrive.

I would assume that not involving the public in the creation of rules is about brand management. That's why rules cost so much and see so little of the public before release, so as to maintain the veneer of quality.

I would also assume that's the reason for high-priced models. Quality is linked to price for many consumers.

If the company had a representative on this board, they would be doing little more than answering for this or that crime against wargaming. GW want to be the lawmakers when it comes to tabletop gaming, so that just wouldn't do.

I'm not suggesting it works or is the right way to go about things, but they are the #1 wargaming company. I personally think they're worrying too much about making hay while the Sun shines and not enough on removing the stigma attached to wargaming.

On finecast, I've been pretty lucky with my models. Some friends have not been so lucky. Air bubbles, broken pieces, etc. Especially some of the necron lords with their super thin ankles and staves of Ra or whatever...

I have ordered, assembled, and primed three of the new FineCast models that came out with the Chaos Release: Warpsmith, Dark Apostle (screw you for judging me, I like this model!), and the new Sorcerer and didn't have an issue with any of them. I did trim the Dark Apostles scrolls down some. They are comically long. Shortened, they look just fine. Anyhow, perhaps it's getting better or perhaps I continue to be incredibly lucky with finecast.

 kronk wrote:
On finecast, I've been pretty lucky with my models. Some friends have not been so lucky. Air bubbles, broken pieces, etc. Especially some of the necron lords with their super thin ankles and staves of Ra or whatever...

I have ordered, assembled, and primed three of the new FineCast models that came out with the Chaos Release: Warpsmith, Dark Apostle (screw you for judging me, I like this model!), and the new Sorcerer and didn't have an issue with any of them. I did trim the Dark Apostles scrolls down some. They are comically long. Shortened, they look just fine. Anyhow, perhaps it's getting better or perhaps I continue to be incredibly lucky with finecast.

I picked up a Chaplain in Terminator Armor on Friday. There are small air bubbles on the underside of his Crozius Arcanum, and on his right arm. The Storm Bolter is missing the backs on 4 bolt rounds, and there are a few other air bubbles... Sadly, it's not perfect, and it shouldn't be. I called GW Customer service about this, since this is the second finecast model I've bought with issues trying to get replacements, but I am not holding my breath Mostly cause I need the model more than I need it in perfect condition...

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
They DO playtest. They DON'T get random people on the interwebz to playtest. They probably playtest it themselves or playtest within a small group of outside people. As GW peeps aren't exactly known for being no. 1 tournament players, there are loads of flaws.

I refuse to believe that anyone playtested Daemons (fantasy) or Grey Knights, or beastmen
they had to overhall the entire game of fantasy to fix the problems that daemons caused

yeah I totally buy they meant to do that and didn't just spit out a codex because they felt it could sell the most models
or on the other coin, Beastmen were horrible in their new codex from day one
Sisters are garbage (anything with a white dwarf is garbage)
the game isn't at all balanced, and if they did actually do some semblance of testing or anything, it would be somewhat
every game has its flaws but other companies seem to iron it out pretty well
to my knowledge Privateer Press doesn't have its own Matt Ward screwing up everything

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
They DO playtest. They DON'T get random people on the interwebz to playtest. They probably playtest it themselves or playtest within a small group of outside people. As GW peeps aren't exactly known for being no. 1 tournament players, there are loads of flaws.

I refuse to believe that anyone playtested Daemons (fantasy) or Grey Knights, or Beastmen
they had to overhall the entire game of fantasy to fix the problems that daemons caused

yeah I totally buy they meant to do that and didn't just spit out a codex because they felt it could sell the most models
or on the other coin, Beastmen were horrible in their new codex from day one
Sisters are garbage (anything with a white dwarf is garbage)
the game isn't at all balanced, and if they did actually do some semblance of testing or anything, it would be somewhat
every game has its flaws but other companies seem to iron it out pretty well
to my knowledge Privateer Press doesn't have its own Matt Ward screwing up everything

That's not really true now is it. They probably did play test all those books quite extensively. they play game after game and hammer out rules until they find something workable. There isn't an army in the ether game that's broken. Sure you can build a list that is tough to beat, it may even win more than it loses, but it's probably has alot of the same unit in it. The fact is they don't care if you win or lose games. They want you to build armies. They want you to buy a codex, all the units in the codex and put an army together. The game actually plays better if you take a big selection of units and not just the "competitive ones."

If you want to see changes in Games workshop, vote with your dollar and buy shares in the company. Take an active interest and try and effect positive change. We can sit here an talk about all the faults GW has; but unless we actually try and change them we are simply wasting time.

Here is the Investor relations Website: http://investor.games-workshop.com.

I may buy 1 share
1 is more then none

With all due respect, but GW playtesting the new releases properly is just a fantasy. Do you seriously believe stuff like the codex GK got playtested before?

Surely "they had to change Fantasy because of Daemons" is a myth that evolved from table-talk?

You'd need to define playtesting really though to picture them doing it. I can't see them pulling a book out of the air. They might have even wanted to create an OP book and actively playtested it to ensure it was the basis for a top-tier army.

Don't assume playtesting for balance or any intrinsically good motives when the models cost so much.

It most certainly was. Were grey knight so bad? Did you lose every game against them? Were they so broken that trying to play them ended on turn 2 with your models smashed and your man card cut in half? No.

The Grey Knight Codex is completely on par with every other book from 5th edition. Sure they are a hard army to play against I lost more then I won against them. But I did beat them. Any army or player can do it. Even sisters of battle and a smuck like me.

Maybe I'm just a fan boy but GW puts out quality products regularly. They supply me with new rules, models and books several times a year. If i need a community to play I make it happen myself, I'm not going to expect them to do it for me.

battleranch wrote:
It most certainly was. Were grey knight so bad? Did you lose every game against them? Were they so broken that trying to play them ended on turn 2 with your models smashed and your man card cut in half? No.

The Grey Knight Codex is completely on par with every other book from 5th edition. Sure they are a hard army to play against I lost more then I won against them. But I did beat them. Any army or player can do it. Even sisters of battle and a smuck like me.

Maybe I'm just a fan boy but GW puts out quality products regularly. They supply me with new rules, models and books several times a year. If i need a community to play I make it happen myself, I'm not going to expect them to do it for me.

For their time GK had some utterly ridiculous OP features. Nothing could take them on in CC thanks to their grenades and the Psyflmen Dreads jsut sat on the other side of the board spewing 4 S8 TL shots, which were pretty much single handed the end of Las/Plam Razorspam.

Next we have Crons with Wraiths that to this day are still rediculous to fight with a 3++ save, unslowable movement, and high Str rending attacks. Not even going to mention GW's bright idea of giving no one real anti flier that is capable of taking on Cron air.

Then we move onto Demons latest shenanigans who get a quick WD update and suddenly become even more ridiculous with the ability to Deepstrike screamers and turboboost that same turn over something to strike them and move in range of Fateweaver for a invul/cover double save. Oh and did I mention flamers suddenly became ridiculous?

Then the poor CSM codex came out with it's only real WTF being the Drake. Ya know, that 5+ invul flies over something attacking it and then hitting stuff with a hellhound style low AP flamer.

Next DA will have something new and shiny even more ridiculous at a $75 price tag so they suck another $250 out of current DA players.

I finally said to myself that I knew that once Eldar get an update I'll be back to tournament level strength. Sadly though, I know that comes with a $250ish pricetag. At this point though there is enough other great tournament quality game out there, that I no longer need GW. Sure I'll keep my eldar, but I'll wait for their new stuff to come around on the second hand market. They will not be receiving my retail sales or TO services anymore.

This may be annoying to hear but maybe people play the game wrong. Maybe the game isn't meant to be played with 4 of the same unit to maximize effectiveness to win the massive grand tournament? Maybe the game is ment to be played with a large selection of units with a group of friends who invested time and effort into building a painting an army. Maybe it has nothing to do with winning or losing, maybe the GW standard of play testing is one that says

"hey daemons need something to do on the turn they deep strike, lets give them a couple units that can soften up targets; then, the awesome Blood letter models can get into combat!"

I'm sure they don't give two monkies if the Nova Open had 12 Grey Knights or 12 Daemon players. Games-Workshop doesn't host tournament or cater to tournaments because tournaments don't matter.

battleranch wrote:
This may be annoying to hear but maybe people play the game wrong.

When we pay as much as we do, we should be able to play it however we want. This point is irrelevant.

Maybe the game isn't meant to be played with 4 of the same unit to maximize effectiveness to win the massive grand tournament? Maybe the game is ment to be played with a large selection of units with a group of friends who invested time and effort into building a painting an army.

If such is the case, then the rules should reflect that. Besides, if one of those friends ends up consistently winning because of having the arbitrarily better army, it doesn't matter what the friends are trying to do, the game becomes stale and boring.

Maybe it has nothing to do with winning or losing, maybe the GW standard of play testing is one that says

"hey daemons need something to do on the turn they deep strike, lets give them a couple units that can soften up targets; then, the awesome Blood letter models can get into combat!"

If such is the case, why even include things like points or force orginization charts in the first place?

I'm sure they don't give two monkies if the Nova Open had 12 Grey Knights or 12 Daemon players. Games-Workshop doesn't host tournament or cater to tournaments because tournaments don't matter.

So you're saying that people who enjoy the game for anything other than an advanced yahtzee simulation don't matter?

That was a perfect post