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Chainmail 2nd Edition disappeared despite using a well-known background as a selling point. The dungeon skirmish game they're releasing now isn't exactly doing well AFAIK.

They're not stupid at all. But what I don't want is to buy a box of pre-painted 40k miniatures and pray for a Long Fang with a Lascannon . . .

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
They're not stupid at all. But what I don't want is to buy a box of pre-painted 40k miniatures and pray for a Long Fang with a Lascannon . . .

But, as mentioned, WotC isn't stupid. They know that 40k isn't a pre-painted game, and that making it into one would destroy what makes 40k popular. The fact that they've tried in the past to cash in on the prepainted market doesn't mean that they'd insist on only having prepainted games, it just means that they'd have separate product lines for different markets. The most likely result of buying GW would be that most of the designers keep their jobs with just a change of logo and a "keep up the good work", while the main emphasis in changes would be in the rules (make them not suck) and marketing (have some).

 Peregrine wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
They're not stupid at all. But what I don't want is to buy a box of pre-painted 40k miniatures and pray for a Long Fang with a Lascannon . . .

But, as mentioned, WotC isn't stupid. They know that 40k isn't a pre-painted game, and that making it into one would destroy what makes 40k popular. The fact that they've tried in the past to cash in on the prepainted market doesn't mean that they'd insist on only having prepainted games, it just means that they'd have separate product lines for different markets. The most likely result of buying GW would be that most of the designers keep their jobs with just a change of logo and a "keep up the good work", while the main emphasis in changes would be in the rules (make them not suck) and marketing (have some).

I tend to agree with this statement. The GW models and product offerings are fine for the most part. The biggest issues are the rules, interactions with the public and pricing. The rules are a disaster and codex creep makes it even worse. GW blatantly ignores the community, sometimes doing everything in their power to stick their fingers in their ears and say "lalalala" over and over. Lastly, the prices are astronomical and compound with the issues above. WotC, hell even Hasbro, does a pretty good job with all three of these things and I would think make it far better.

While in general I have more faith in WotC than in GW, I would not be certain WotC would handle 40k well. Back in the 90s Decipher made a great Star Wars CCG. WotC acquired the license and all but ruined the game.

 spaceelf wrote:
While in general I have more faith in WotC than in GW, I would not be certain WotC would handle 40k well. Back in the 90s Decipher made a great Star Wars CCG. WotC acquired the license and all but ruined the game.

Decipher managed to kill the game themselves long before Lucas gave WotC the license.

Before we talk about how WotC or Hasbro would be better or worse in the marketing and sales part of the hobby, lets please take a minute and remember GW is the company that said no to Wallmart when they wanted to carry their line.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
The hobby may not do so well with WotC since their wargaming rules have been, let's face it, failures. However, it would not be disastrous at all.

On the other hand, WotC isn't stupid. If they buy GW they know they've got an established game with an existing community, and I think they'd be smart enough to find people who know wargames and improve on that base instead of running it into the ground. And they certainly wouldn't do worse than GW is already doing with their rules...

Although I'm not sure it was even a failure, IIRC their Star Wars miniature game was fairly successful and only died because of licensing issues.

I fully believe in WotC and I dream of a day when they wrest 40K away from GW. I'm with you there. However, people who bad-talk that idea are probably remembering Dreamblade, a game that was such a disaster that WotC was nearly put out of business, or dropped by Hasbro, which is pretty much the same thing.

There is every reason to believe that Wizards have learned from that debacle, though, and the lessons of it show all over the place in their releases since.

WotC acquired the Star Wars license (maybe something to do with Hasbro owns WotC and Lucas owning parts of Hasbro) and made an entirely new card game incompatible with the Decipher one. WotC didn't 'ruin' the game, Lucasfilm finished it when they wouldn't renew the licence with Decipher, it was clear they wanted it to go elsewhere.

It wasn't the fault of WotC that their game was incompatible because Decipher owned the previous game design if not the licence. They are at fault however for their new game being rubbish. I say all that as someone who was incensed when Decipher lost the licence. But that was over 10 years ago now, I think generally they have a better record over the last decade than GW who have released almost no new games (great work for a 'workshop') and been determined to bury the remaining few 'specialist games' and have choked off the availability of popular releases like Space Hulk with their fetish for 'limited edition' stuff.

In answer to the original question:
This simple reason is that the rule set isn't tight enough to keep people fulfilling any type of customer-liason position around long enough to actually know what they are doing.

Building on that, the costs involved in actively responding to this large a community would be outrageous.

I wish they would just use something like uservoice.com or stackexchange.com and allow the community to vote on the top issues that need rectifying. Then release monthly FAQs until things settle down.

 Fafnir wrote:


See, here's the thing. I didn't want to necessarily stop playing. I really did want to enjoy 40k and 6th edition, but I simply found it to be unenjoyable. I want to like 40k and everything about it, that's why I'm here. We're not just haters for the sake of hating, everyone here wants 40k to succeed. But the problem is that the way the game is managed and the company that manage it are alienating us. I don't like the direction 40k is moving in, and I'm very concerned, because I used to enjoy it so much. Myself and others are not being negative for the sake of being negative, but because we care about this game and this world and we don't want to see it go the way it is going.

This. This. This. Exalted.

If GW hadn't made the universe they did they would have died years ago. We love that universe. We helped make that universe. Look at BL authors like ADB and Kyme. It's the fans that made cement for GW's aqueducts. Yes they supplied the water but we the fans made the pipelines.


MattyRM inquired earlier about why we should treat GW different from any other PLC. The difference is a lot of us grew up with this company. We helped nurture it. We had a voice once. It was us that made it a PLC. I think it boils down, to me and a few others, that GW took our love for the universe and said "yeah, you don't matter. don't matter how long you've been doing it. you're not our target demo." and thats what hurts really. GW wasn't founded on quick sale teens, but that's their new business plan, so who am I to judge? Besides with my wallet. Which honestly I don't want to do. I want to want to spend money on this. I finally have a real job dammit!

And matty I miss you in OT. Especially in the gun topics. You're very much needed to keep the armchair generals in line.

GW know exactly what the community think. Unfortunately, money talks louder than words. If you want to change GW, stop buying their stuff.

 BryllCream wrote:
GW know exactly what the community think. Unfortunately, money talks louder than words. If you want to change GW, stop buying their stuff.

Or buy all their shares.

ALL their shares?

If you're Bill Gates, why not?

Yes, but most people aren't Bill Gates, and most hobbyists don't have the money to buy every single one of their dirty shares. Anyway, chappies like Kirby aren't likely to be selling their shares any time soon.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Yes, but most people aren't Bill Gates, and most hobbyists don't have the money to buy every single one of their dirty shares. Anyway, chappies like Kirby aren't likely to be selling their shares any time soon.

You don't need ALL the shares. Just enough to have controlling interest. Something like every person who's been a customer of GW just needs to shell in some $1000 or something like that. Can't remember how much exactly, but I calculated it in a previous thread about more or less the same topic.

Also, LOL @ this thread past about page 2.

 SurfPenguin wrote:
OP, let me ask you a simple question: If you were running a company, would you want a phone line where, no matter when you picked it up any hour of the day you got nothing other than an endless string of insults, obscenities, and screaming demands that you essentially give your product away for free?

You wouldn't?

Well, now you know why GW doesn't have a community representative.

Seriously, if 'the community' wants GW to listen to them, then said 'community' had better start saying something other than "You stupid who don't know we don't give a damn about your wellbeing as a company, give us everything we want, right now, for free!"

Indeed. No one's actually shown much effort in proving all that customer support builds the brand or makes them money, or that there is more money to be made. Its a tiny niche market.

A community representative is not the same thing as a phone line or customer support.

It is about communication and spin. Politicians have such folks. Most people do not think highly about politicians. However, they think that their politician (elected official) is doing a good job. Seems to me that community reps work.

 spaceelf wrote:
A community representative is not the same thing as a phone line or customer support.

It is about communication and spin. Politicians have such folks. Most people do not think highly about politicians. However, they think that their politician (elected official) is doing a good job. Seems to me that community reps work.

Exactly, they don't need someone to sit down and sift through forums for the non offensive comments to address, they need someone who can stand up and tell us price rises, limited editions at a 100% mark up, the 'no sneak peak' policies and finecast are GOOD things. Most of us won't believe it but that is a community reps real job, trying to spin bad stuff to make their employer look reasonable/good/our savior.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:


See, here's the thing. I didn't want to necessarily stop playing. I really did want to enjoy 40k and 6th edition, but I simply found it to be unenjoyable. I want to like 40k and everything about it, that's why I'm here. We're not just haters for the sake of hating, everyone here wants 40k to succeed. But the problem is that the way the game is managed and the company that manage it are alienating us. I don't like the direction 40k is moving in, and I'm very concerned, because I used to enjoy it so much. Myself and others are not being negative for the sake of being negative, but because we care about this game and this world and we don't want to see it go the way it is going.

This. This. This. Exalted.

If GW hadn't made the universe they did they would have died years ago. We love that universe. We helped make that universe. Look at BL authors like ADB and Kyme. It's the fans that made cement for GW's aqueducts. Yes they supplied the water but we the fans made the pipelines.


MattyRM inquired earlier about why we should treat GW different from any other PLC. The difference is a lot of us grew up with this company. We helped nurture it. We had a voice once. It was us that made it a PLC. I think it boils down, to me and a few others, that GW took our love for the universe and said "yeah, you don't matter. don't matter how long you've been doing it. you're not our target demo." and thats what hurts really. GW wasn't founded on quick sale teens, but that's their new business plan, so who am I to judge? Besides with my wallet. Which honestly I don't want to do. I want to want to spend money on this. I finally have a real job dammit!

And matty I miss you in OT. Especially in the gun topics. You're very much needed to keep the armchair generals in line.

And your post made me realise why this is such an emotional issue for people better than the numerous arguments I've had with super pissed people like Phantom.

I can entirely understand the anger as a result of being such a long term fan and seeing things change right in front of your eyes.

Alas, such is the world we live in... Still, it will be worse in 50 years time when we all live in Hab-spires and dont even get served in stores by actual humans.

so, I see the discussion has veered from "why doesn't GW have a representative here that we can yell at?" to just another complaint war?

/thread?

 Sean_OBrien wrote:


How about Reaper then? They are over 20 years old and regularly interact at all levels with their customers. They are not even afraid of jumping into discussions with those who are actively hating on their products and take their lumps along the way. You can speak with all levels of the company without much difficulty from production, design all the way to Ed at the top.

That's the difference between a gaming/modeling company run by gamers and modelers and a gaming/modeling company run by accountants, Sean.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
so, I see the discussion has veered from "why doesn't GW have a representative here that we can yell at?" to just another complaint war?

/thread?

You expected something different? There are like 6 threads in GD which are nothing but complaint wars...

GW is not run by accountants. I know a lot of accountants and they would never tell you to throw away your existing customer base or alienate existing customers if they're worth their salt.

agustin wrote:
GW is not run by accountants. I know a lot of accountants and they would never tell you to throw away your existing customer base or alienate existing customers if they're worth their salt.

No, its run by bad accountants.

Here's an interview with Rick Priestley done a few days ago.

http://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.nl/2013/01/rick-priestley-interview-from-realms-of.html

The most damning bit towards GW is this:
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!"

 Peregrine wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Like who?

No matter who bought GW, there would always be someone pissing and moaning about the direction of the company. Its what gamers do!

As I've already mentioned, my preference is WotC, since they've done a very good job of handling MTG. Especially in the context of community support/interaction GW could really learn a few lessons from them.

Funny, WotC ruined MtG for me and I don't play the game anymore.

I find it laughable how people in same sentence condemn GW from codex creep and praise WotC, which is way worse in this department.

But WotC don't just make MtG, they make D&D as well, which is pretty robust.

Backfire wrote:
I find it laughable how people in same sentence condemn GW from codex creep and praise WotC, which is way worse in this department.

Easily, because anyone who thinks that MTG suffers from power creep never played competitive MTG until recently.

 Peregrine wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I find it laughable how people in same sentence condemn GW from codex creep and praise WotC, which is way worse in this department.

Easily, because anyone who thinks that MTG suffers from power creep never played competitive MTG until recently.

I've never played competive MtG, but expansion creep was very notable at around Visions, when I quit. Don't really know what has happened since.