Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
You keep saying this. Could you please show me where that is?

You've seen the quote posted over and over again here, from the beginning of every FW book since IA:Apocalypse 2.

That is a statement from Forge World in a Forge World book. That is nowhere near same as "GW has explicitly stated that....".

Forge World. And GW. Are. The. Same. People.

^^^^^^ What he said

It's like saying Coke and Diet Coke are made by different companies.

Not that it really matters. Pretending the FW statement isn't from GW isn't about an honest misunderstanding, it's just an excuse for why their house rule is "official". If GW ever does publish the same statement using the GW brand name they'll just move on to the next reason for why FW isn't part of the standard game.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
You keep saying this. Could you please show me where that is?

You've seen the quote posted over and over again here, from the beginning of every FW book since IA:Apocalypse 2.

That is a statement from Forge World in a Forge World book. That is nowhere near same as "GW has explicitly stated that....".

As others have said, FW *IS* GW. They are GW employees working at GW headquarters producing GW products under GW copyright for GW systems. They just do specialty products that the core design studio doesn't have time for and that the normal plastics manufacturing doesn't have the capability to do.

 Peregrine wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
That is a statement from Forge World in a Forge World book. That is nowhere near same as "GW has explicitly stated that....".

Forge World IS GW. The aren't a separate company, they're a brand name used by GW to sell their line of high-end resin models and Imperial Armour books, just like the standard plastic kits you buy under the Citadel brand name aren't from some other company.

Thats utterly irrelevant.
Forge World is indeed part of Games Workshop PLC. They are a subsidiary company.
They are also not run by the same people, the rules are not designed by the same people, the rules are not playtested by the same people (for good or bad ) and said rules are not vetted or approved by any person from the Design Studio.

All of which does not change that it is certainly not "GW EXPLICITLY stating...." anything.

To "get around" the requirement for permission (a simplified way of saying "make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models") apparently requires the mental gymnastics of jumping back and forth between different publications, comparing their wording, drawing arbitrary distinctions and applying selective meaning and weight to various words.

There are no Easter Eggs here. Please, stop looking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 washout77 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
You keep saying this. Could you please show me where that is?

You've seen the quote posted over and over again here, from the beginning of every FW book since IA:Apocalypse 2.

That is a statement from Forge World in a Forge World book. That is nowhere near same as "GW has explicitly stated that....".

Forge World. And GW. Are. The. Same. People.

I am going to go with a simple "No" to that.

Steelmage99 wrote:
and said rules are not vetted or approved by any person from the Design Studio.

Laughably false. Even if the approval is nothing more than "keep up the good work guys" it's still approval, and it's absolutely insane to think that GW management would allow a rogue designer to repeatedly put "this is official and part of standard 40k" in their work without stopping it. The fact that the exact same statement continues to appear is indisputable proof that GW management approves of it being there.

All of which does not change that it is certainly not "GW EXPLICITLY stating...." anything.

Sure it is. A GW employee put that statement in a GW product, sold in GW stores. How the hell is it anything BUT "GW explicitly saying"?

I am giving up on you, Peregrine.
Feel free to consider yourself the "winner" of this discussion, and give me a parting shot of anything that strikes your fancy.

Steelmage99 wrote:

I am going to go with a simple "No" to that.

Why? FW is a part of GW. They are the same company. Same thing as Black Library is to GW. The people who write the IA books are people in GW.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
"you'll find everything you need to know about that faction" pg 108 BGB

And how does that sentence prohibit an Imperial Armour book from adding official standard units for official use in standard games of 40K?

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
You keep saying this. Could you please show me where that is?

You've seen the quote posted over and over again here, from the beginning of every FW book since IA:Apocalypse 2.

That is a statement from Forge World in a Forge World book. That is nowhere near same as "GW has explicitly stated that....".

It is literally exactly that.

 Peregrine wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
You keep saying this. Could you please show me where that is?

You've seen the quote posted over and over again here, from the beginning of every FW book since IA:Apocalypse 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
1) With the exception of Erratas I agree.

Then you concede defeat on this subject. If you require errata in addition to the printed codex then the printed codex can not be "everything" required to play an army. And once we no longer have a literal "everything", the only question is which sources of rules are part of the standard game in addition to the codex. And GW helpfully provides an answer at the beginning of every FW book.

At this point though I am done arguing on this topic.
It's obvious we'll never see eye to eye on the subject, I think you're in the wrong and you I.
I'll just gladly leave it in the case of, let your respectable Game Store owners/TO, club reps, etc make the call for your area.
In the end what they say is better than RAW regardless.

Please don't reply to this as an attempt to "win" the argument unless you really need it. In which case feel free

Quack Quack Quack Mr. Ducksworth.

Wait. WAIT.

Did we really just cut the argument short before it was locked?

Did that really just happen?

Thought I would never see the day hahahaha

 Kaldor wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
"you'll find everything you need to know about that faction" pg 108 BGB

And how does that sentence prohibit an Imperial Armour book from adding official standard units for official use in standard games of 40K?

Please don't reply to this as an attempt to "win" the argument unless you really need it. In which case feel free

Beings that wasn't exactly addressed to you and I understand there's alot to read in this thread so you may have missed the part where I bowed out.
I'll answer this for you.

Are the FW books an errata to the codex?
If you feel they are than, by all means play that way.

If you feel that it's a FW Book with a unit that may be used in addition to what the codex offers, than by all means play that way.

I'm out of the argument, please leave it that way. Yourself, Peregrine, and TheCaptain have won the internetz congratulations.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 washout77 wrote:
Wait. WAIT.

Did we really just cut the argument short before it was locked?

Did that really just happen?

Thought I would never see the day hahahaha

-edited- However, I felt I needed to reply again beings questions were asked.

Best of luck, let's hope eventually GW gives us a solid answer so we don't have to squabble like this.

GW as in GW, not as in FW a part of GW, just to clarify.

What? no Table flip?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Best of luck, let's hope eventually GW gives us a solid answer so we don't have to squabble like this.

GW as in GW, not as in FW a part of GW, just to clarify.

Agreed. No hard feelings, by the way haha

Im actually really surprised GW hasn't come out in one of the conventions or in a newsletter or something (or just make a FAQ) and give a straight answer.

Not the usual GW "Why wouldn't you?" thing that starts this stuff in the first place

They never will because the only people this question really matters to are the tournament crowd and GW has expressly stated the current rule set was not designed with them in mind.

As such to their mind the question is a moot point because as far as they are concerned Forge world stuff is allowed in any 40k standard game hence the 40k approved.

Orktavius wrote:
They never will because the only people this question really matters to are the tournament crowd and GW has expressly stated the current rule set was not designed with them in mind.

Or, more importantly, because "GW hasn't said so" isn't a genuine ambiguity approached open-mindedly by people who aren't sure what the answer is, it's an excuse to let certain people justify their "no FW" policy to themselves. If GW did say it again using the main "GW" brand name the anti-FW crowd would just find another reason for why it wasn't official ("they published it as an online article instead of personally writing it in my copy of the rulebook!!!!").

Why is it that some people keep missing that the Forgeworld books themselves says to ask for permission?

The perceived/guessed-at motivation behind a decision to not give that permission is completely and utterly irrelevant.

The books themselves tells us to seek that permission, and as such also includes the possibility that said permission is NOT granted.

Any arguments about who publishes said books, any "stamps", misdirections concerning WD publications or any personal feelings when denied permission are worthless....actually less than worthless.

Some are deliberate attempts to influence the decision by childishly implying that a person that does not enjoy a game of 40K with Imperial Armour rules included is being unreasonable, stupid, afraid and other made-up characteristics.

It is also a fact that everything that is actually accepted as "official GW stuff" in 40K would suggest that you get your opponents' permission to use. You could basically put the Forgeworld disclaimer in the front of every codex GW puts out, because it would apply verbatim, other than the Forgeword name in the text.

It's basically assumed that if you are playing a guy and you are going to be fielding Orks, you ask him if he's ok with you playing that army, and if he would like to see your codex about any rules he's unclear on, because he may be in the dark about what Orks can do.

----------------------------------------

I know I personally stand on the side of the fence that I would rather play against Forgeworld stuff than several parts of "official" codexes published by GW lately!

Also, that I would be just as taken aback by someone refusing to play me because I have some Forgeworld models in my army as someone refusing to play me because they don't like Land raiders in a Space marine army for some personal reason!

As stated before, we should also tell a bunch of Marine players that they can no longer field their very expensive GW-produced Storm Talons, or field the Sisters of Battle they bought entirely from GW online, without an opponent's express permission, because they aren't part of an "actual codex-based publication", and GW hasn't reprinted the 6e BRB to include any notification that such non-codex units can be used.

The Forgeworld books themselves say to ask for opponents permission.

So the best course of action is to " ask for opponents permission".

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Forgeworld books themselves say to ask for opponents permission.

Only because the units aren't in the off the shelf codices, so it's best not to surprise your opponent. Nothing in the statement says anything about them being less legal.

 DeathReaper wrote:
So the best course of action is to " ask for opponents permission".

I don't think anyone at all in the thread has advocated not telling your opponent beforehand.

 -Loki- wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Forgeworld books themselves say to ask for opponents permission.

Only because the units aren't in the off the shelf codices, so it's best not to surprise your opponent. Nothing in the statement says anything about them being less legal.

Well considering the game requires a social contract between two people, you need your opponents permission to play a game in the first place.

What is legal is within the 40k Rules for a regular game of 40k is contained in the 40K rulebook and codexes for the game. (This usually means no forgeworld units as not everyone has access to those rules, and most tournaments will not allow anything other than the BRB and the codexes for 40k).

Any supliments, while technically "Legal" can easily be denied by any opponent at any time for any given reason.

 Peregrine wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
They never will because the only people this question really matters to are the tournament crowd and GW has expressly stated the current rule set was not designed with them in mind.

Or, more importantly, because "GW hasn't said so" isn't a genuine ambiguity approached open-mindedly by people who aren't sure what the answer is, it's an excuse to let certain people justify their "no FW" policy to themselves. If GW did say it again using the main "GW" brand name the anti-FW crowd would just find another reason for why it wasn't official ("they published it as an online article instead of personally writing it in my copy of the rulebook!!!!").

This is in the case of what if land I suppose. It's just 2 Stars left of never land
Actually if GW went ahead in their BGB FAQ and put in a FAQ that said :

Are the 40k Approved units from FW Books legal for use in all 40k games? ( Or something similar to this )


Man, seriously you need to chill out a bit. Hatin on haters is not the place to be.
On a serious note though, I wish we allowed FW stuff. Might try to talk to the shop owner to see if we can sway him. I want to play 2x Vulture gun boat, and 3x Vendettas. (Legit)

 washout77 wrote:
Wait. WAIT.

Did we really just cut the argument short before it was locked?

Did that really just happen?

Thought I would never see the day hahahaha

It was false hope, it seems.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Forgeworld books themselves say to ask for opponents permission.

Only because the units aren't in the off the shelf codices, so it's best not to surprise your opponent. Nothing in the statement says anything about them being less legal.

Well considering the game requires a social contract between two people, you need your opponents permission to play a game in the first place.

What is legal is within the 40k Rules for a regular game of 40k is contained in the 40K rulebook and codexes for the game. (This usually means no forgeworld units as not everyone has access to those rules, and most tournaments will not allow anything other than the BRB and the codexes for 40k).

Any supliments, while technically "Legal" can easily be denied by any opponent at any time for any given reason.

1. Absolutely true. No one has ever denied that.

2. Why does 'access to rules' matter? I don't own a Necron codex, so I have as much access to the Necron rules as someone without Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition has access to the Stonecrusher Carnifex rules. Access to rules is irrelevant - if you want to see the rules for something someone brought, ask to see the book they're in. If they refuse, refor to your first point.

3. Again, no one has refuted that.

No one is refuting that you shouldn't see the rules before a game, or that you shouldn't be allowed to refuse a game if someone is using Forgeworld stuff. This argument has been solely around some people claiming Forgeworld rules are the equivalent of a fandex or made up rules, because they have a different Games Workshop branding on them.

If people simply said 'you know what? No, I don't like them, so I won't play them' the argument would have died on page 1. When some people come out of the woodwork and claim they're not legal and everyone who things they are is an idiot based on a few strawman arguments and factually incorrect statements, people are going to get defensive.

 -Loki- wrote:
If people simply said 'you know what? No, I don't like them, so I won't play them' the argument would have died on page 1. When some people come out of the woodwork and claim they're not legal and everyone who things they are is an idiot based on a few strawman arguments and factually incorrect statements, people are going to get defensive.

This. If people would just admit that it's their preference not to play against FW stuff there wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. We don't have giant 10-page flame wars every time someone says they don't want to play against Necron flyerspam with their "fluff" list, but that's because the "fluff" player just admits they don't enjoy it and doesn't attempt to nitpick some obscure sentence somewhere that "proves" that taking flyers is illegal.

But instead certain people seem to be terrified of admitting that their house rule is only a house rule, and we get flame wars.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Forgeworld books themselves say to ask for opponents permission.

Only because the units aren't in the off the shelf codices, so it's best not to surprise your opponent. Nothing in the statement says anything about them being less legal.

Well considering the game requires a social contract between two people, you need your opponents permission to play a game in the first place.

What is legal is within the 40k Rules for a regular game of 40k is contained in the 40K rulebook and codexes for the game. (This usually means no forgeworld units as not everyone has access to those rules, and most tournaments will not allow anything other than the BRB and the codexes for 40k).

Any supliments, while technically "Legal" can easily be denied by any opponent at any time for any given reason.

Everybody has access to FW rules. Just because they don't buy them doesn't mean they don't have access to them. I don't own all of the Codeci, but I have access to them if I wish to. Just like my opponents all have access to FW books. Buy the damn things.

 King of the Elves wrote:
This got WAY off from the OP. My question is do most people at a FLGS have a problem with playing with FW models as long as they have the 40K stamp. That was my question, please answer it or take your other opinions elsewhere, or I will lock this thread.

Honestly I think all the back and forth is a statement to the question is FW considered legal by everyone.

Also I don't personally know anyone who wouldn't play a casual game vs FW stuff.
That said though FW stuffs not permitted at either of our FLGS for Tournaments.

It's important to find out about both of these if you're looking into getting FW units/books imo.

I apologize for the offtopicness, but honestly I thought you already tried to lock this thread. Hence the re-title

I have benen following a few of these threads and i would just like to ask a question before thread lock.

Without debating the legality of FW why do you not want to play ageinst FW models?
Is it because you feel they are OP?
Is it because of a pure stand on rule prinicple?
Is there a few of the models that are OP so we do not want to take a chance on the rest?
Or is there another reason altogether?

Sorry for intruding on this thread i just have been wondering this for some time.
I do not wish to debate why its wrong Or right just would like to know why half the crowd does seem not want to play ageins à certain set of models.

regards Ogard

Forge world rules are an expansion and I would treat it as such, some people want to use it all the time, others only sometimes and you will find others won't want to use them at all.
The best way to find out is to talk to at least some of the people you will be playing with if you don't want to risk purchase befor hand.

If the group you will attend doesn't use forge world much or at all, talk to some of them about your desire to use them.

It's probably a little late but I thaght I would still post :(

The way I look at it is that if somebody refuses to play my Krieg army then it's more their loss than mine. Besides the fact they would probably have a fairly easy win (as the list sucks) it's a beautiful army that is very rarely seen. Why would somebody NOT want to play it?

Steelmage99 wrote:
Thats utterly irrelevant.
Forge World is indeed part of Games Workshop PLC. They are a subsidiary company.

They are not a subsidiary, they are not their own company, they do not have their own management, their paychecks are signed Games Workshop and not Forgeworld, their products are Copyright Games Workshop and not Forgeworld (if you really want to see how a 3rd party 40k product works look at FFG and their RPG's), they are nothing more than Games Workshop DBA (Doing Business As) Forgeworld.

They are also not run by the same people, the rules are not designed by the same people,

Neither was anything in 5th done by Alessio Cavatore who wrote the 5th ed rulebook, what's your point? I can't think of any other game system where that would be relevant.

the rules are not playtested by the same people (for good or bad ) and said rules are not vetted or approved by any person from the Design Studio.

Show me in the rules where it says they need to be? This point has no merit because it's an imagined requirement and the Design Studio did not write the Warhammer 40,000 rules with competitive balanced gaming in mind, by their own words, and thus the only thing that's really relevant is the fact is that Games Workshop itself is selling these products for use with their Warhammer 40,000 system.