Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't get the argument of " I don't know what the model does or what its rules are so i refuse to play against it." Are you saying that you know the rules for every other model in the game that is not Forgeworld? Have you committed all of the standard codex material to memory? That is just silly, get over yourself.

Mr Mugguffins wrote:
In reply to the op.

I point blank refuse to play against forge world units. As in, non codex units with rules I have never seen before as I don't have the £60 forge world book that they lurk in. I play warhammer 40k, not warhammer imperial armor.

I have no problem using the models (as they are usually fantastic) themselves in proxy for codex units so long as it's clear what they are.

I point blank refuse to play against Chaos space marine players. As in, expensive codex units with rules I have never seen before as I don't have the £30 pound Games Workshop book that they lurk in. I play Warhammer 40,000 fifth edition, not Warhammer 40,000 sixth edition.

1. Forge World is Games Workshop.
2. It's books are offical expansions to Warhammer 40k.
3. It's units don't have the lurk special rule (well the Tyranids do),
4. Because you don't have it doesn't make it unofficial.

 BarBoBot wrote:

If you want to play with FW or HH units, you will have to find someone WILLING to play against it.... AKA opponents permission.

The same way everything else in the game works.

Exactly walrus.

The people arguing in favor of FW and HH seem to think they can insist that you have to play against it.

I often play games against opponents with FW units. That does not mean that I HAVE to play.... And if I don't feel up to it that day, I won't. Do I deserve to be insulted if I decline a game?

It seems that some of the people demanding that opponents play against FW and HH are forgetting that it's a game... And that it's supposed to be fun for both players.

 BarBoBot wrote:
If someone doesn't want to play against FW units in regular 40k, they won't play.

Insisting that they play against FW or HH isn't going to change their mind.

Demonstrating the reasoning behind your inclusion of FW units, as well as the fairness behind the decision will possibly, in fact, change their mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Mugguffins wrote:
In reply to the op.

I point blank refuse to play against forge world units. As in, non codex units with rules I have never seen before as I don't have the £60 forge world book that they lurk in. I play warhammer 40k, not warhammer imperial armor.

I have no problem using the models (as they are usually fantastic) themselves in proxy for codex units so long as it's clear what they are.

I actually like this post, because it demonstrates the misunderstanding that goes into being for the exclusion of FW units.

Once all the misunderstanding is cleared up, this, and arguments like it, have nothing to stand on.

Simple fact of the matter is that opponents don't need any reason at all, valid or not, to refuse ANY game.

If you insist on wanting to play with FW and they insist on not playing FW, then move on and find an opponent who WANTS to. Stop trying to force it down their throat.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Simple fact of the matter is that opponents don't need any reason at all, valid or not, to refuse ANY game.

If you insist on wanting to play with FW and they insist on not playing FW, then move on and find an opponent who WANTS to. Stop trying to force it down their throat.

Then they need to stop insisting that forgeworld has no place in ANY game and trying to use anything they can to prevent it, it's a two way street.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Simple fact of the matter is that opponents don't need any reason at all, valid or not, to refuse ANY game.

If you insist on wanting to play with FW and they insist on not playing FW, then move on and find an opponent who WANTS to. Stop trying to force it down their throat.

I have no problem with people not wanting to play against FW; what I DO have a problem with is people insisting on using silly arguments to rationalize it, especially when claiming that anyone using FW units is a WAAC TFG.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Simple fact of the matter is that opponents don't need any reason at all, valid or not, to refuse ANY game.

If you insist on wanting to play with FW and they insist on not playing FW, then move on and find an opponent who WANTS to. Stop trying to force it down their throat.

Then they need to stop insisting that forgeworld has no place in ANY game and trying to use anything they can to prevent it, it's a two way street.

This makes no sense to me... Are you saying that when your playing against people who allow FW, there are other people actively trying to prevent your game, or are you saying that the people who don't want to play FW need to stop saying they don't want to play against FW???

 BarBoBot wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Simple fact of the matter is that opponents don't need any reason at all, valid or not, to refuse ANY game.

If you insist on wanting to play with FW and they insist on not playing FW, then move on and find an opponent who WANTS to. Stop trying to force it down their throat.

Then they need to stop insisting that forgeworld has no place in ANY game and trying to use anything they can to prevent it, it's a two way street.

This makes no sense to me... Are you saying that when your playing against people who allow FW, there are other people actively trying to prevent your game, or are you saying that the people who don't want to play FW need to stop saying they don't want to play against FW???

Actually I did have the first one before, someone came right up to a table with me and my friend playing with a few FW models and said they weren't legal in any game because they weren't in the codex being used.

Am I saying you have to play forgeworld? No, you don't, but the arguments people continue to use to avoid it aren't really that well done. Because otherwise it sounds like. "I'm not going to play Dark Eldar because I don't want to."

Just say you don't like forgeworld and don't want to play it, and that's enough, justifying it to a pointless level means people will nitpick your arguments down.

 Baldsmug wrote:
I don't get the argument of " I don't know what the model does or what its rules are so i refuse to play against it." Are you saying that you know the rules for every other model in the game that is not Forgeworld? Have you committed all of the standard codex material to memory? That is just silly, get over yourself.

For what it's worth, I've met quite a few players over the years who did know the rules for every codex. Hell, so did I through 3rd and 4th edition, when I had a little more time for gaming.

Not endorsing it as a reason to not play against Forgeworld, just pointing out that it's not actually as uncommon as you might think.

I remember when I knew just about every army by heart...

alas, not anymore

It doesn't help that there's more stuff in each book and it's kookier than it has been since the 3E reboot.

Mr Mugguffins wrote:
In reply to the op.

I point blank refuse to play against forge world units. As in, non codex units with rules I have never seen before as I don't have the £60 forge world book that they lurk in. I play warhammer 40k, not warhammer imperial armor.

I have no problem using the models (as they are usually fantastic) themselves in proxy for codex units so long as it's clear what they are.

fry.jpg

 BarBoBot wrote:
Exactly walrus.

The people arguing in favor of FW and HH seem to think they can insist that you have to play against it.

I often play games against opponents with FW units. That does not mean that I HAVE to play.... And if I don't feel up to it that day, I won't. Do I deserve to be insulted if I decline a game?

It seems that some of the people demanding that opponents play against FW and HH are forgetting that it's a game... And that it's supposed to be fun for both players.

Well, it depends. Some reasons for declining a game are fine. Some are not. If you say you're tired or just don't feel like a game, that's fine. If you say it's because I'm black, or because I'm Jewish, that's not so fine.

If you say it's because you don't like Dark Eldar, I'm not going to insult you but I'm going to look at you funny and think you're strange. And that's no different from if you say you don't like Forge World, because (get this) Forge World is no different from any other codex.

The thing is, it IS different. I don't care if you like playing it or not. FW is more of an expansion than "another codex"

I'll use the command and conquer series as an example.

Let's say you love playing the old "red alert 2" game. I have purchased the expansion to that game which adds new units, scenarios etc.

Are you going to buy the expansion just because I have it, even if you PREFER playing the original? Are you being a jerk if you don't?

As for your DE example, you have no right to judge me or anyone else for passing on playing against it. You don't know what reason I may have.( perhaps I play against DE all the time and want to play against something else, maybe my army does poorly against it aka rock/paper/scissors, or maybe it's just you...)

The point is I play the game I WANT to play, and you nor anyone else no matter how much you whine or insult have any reason to disrespect me for my choice.

Some of these posts have been so childish.... In what world does ANYONE feel they need to force their way of playing on anyone else...

FYI, I play against FW fairly often, and if anyone who wanted me to play them acted like some of the people here and DEMANDED to know why I wouldn't and critisized my answer, whatever my reason may be.... I would never play 40k with them period. FW or not.

 BarBoBot wrote:
The thing is, it IS different. I don't care if you like playing it or not. FW is more of an expansion than "another codex"

Not according to the people who write the rules for 40k, who have explicitly stated that FW is part of the standard game just like every codex.

Some of these posts have been so childish.... In what world does ANYONE feel they need to force their way of playing on anyone else...

Because the anti-FW crowd refuses to admit that their house rule is just a house rule based on personal preference and resorts to insane arguments (for example, that GW doesn't have the authority to determine the rules for their own games) in a desperate attempt to pretend that it's actually what the rules of the game say. If they'd just admit that they don't like FW and won't play against it there wouldn't be nearly as much of an argument.

If your going to categorize all the people who don't want to play FW as just not liking it, then why do you care at all if they play?

Are you now saying that just because YOU want to play FW, that it's not ok for someone not to want to?

 BarBoBot wrote:
If your going to categorize all the people who don't want to play FW as just not liking it, then why do you care at all if they play?

Because they refuse to admit that their preference is a house rule and spread lies and/or ridiculous arguments about why the rules supposedly say that FW isn't legal. There wouldn't be a problem if they'd just quietly admit that they have a house rule and just not play against FW in their own games.

Are you now saying that just because YOU want to play FW, that it's not ok for someone not to want to?

Did you even read what I wrote, or are you trying to win a "best strawman ever" contest? That's the exact opposite of what I said. I very clearly said that my main problem is with the bad arguments, not with individual preferences about what parts of the game they do or do not want to play against.

Why is this always such a problem? Most of their stuff isn't even OP, it's just fancy like their dreadnoughts... even the chaplain dreadnought or contemptor dreadnought, it's not that different from a regular dread. But people are always either wondering or complaining about forgeworld stuff.

I think it's pretty laughable how you think that people don't play FW because haters spread rumors of it being illegal...

I have yet to meet 1 person who claimed they wanted to use FW models but couldn't because it's not legal....

When you want to use FW, you play someone who wants to use FW or that doesn't mind playing against it....

Is some guy that refuses to play games over 1000 points an donkey-cave because he doesn't like bigger games?

If he complains to you that it's not cool that you won't play his way of playing the game, are you going to change your mind?

In my experiences, it hasn't been FW or point limits, or age that puts poeple off playing any kind of game with a person nearly as much as poor sportsmanship and bad attitudes.

Nice people don't really have trouble finding an opponent... No matter what the game.

 BarBoBot wrote:
I think it's pretty laughable how you think that people don't play FW because haters spread rumors of it being illegal...

Except that's exactly what happens. People spread the incorrect idea that it's illegal, or a third-party company, or whatever, and is it really surprising that people who don't have strong feelings one way or another believe them and set their policies by that incorrect information?

I have yet to meet 1 person who claimed they wanted to use FW models but couldn't because it's not legal....

That's nice. Your experience isn't universal. I've encountered people who won't play against FW, and been excluded from leagues/tournaments because they won't allow FW rules.

Is some guy that refuses to play games over 1000 points an donkey-cave because he doesn't like bigger games?

That depends.

If he just doesn't play games over 1000 points because that's just what he likes, fine.

If he doesn't play games over 1000 points and posts endless forum rants about how the rulebook "says" that you need special permission to use the "over 1000 points" expansion then yes, he's an donkey-cave.

But I've told you this already, and I doubt that telling you again is going to make you drop the strawman.

Call it a straw man all you want. I call it common sense.

You don't force your way of playing on other people, you find like minded people to play.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Call it a straw man all you want. I call it common sense.

You don't force your way of playing on other people, you find like minded people to play.

What, I think, Peregrine is saying can be summed up thusly:

Say that NewPlayer10 asks if Forge World units are legal for use in regular 40k.

The Anti-ForgeWorld crowd has two options to respond:
1) "No, it is not legal"
2) "Yes, it is legal, but I personally will not play against it."

Peregrine's point is that option 1 is an outright lie, and often misleads people like NewPlayer10. However, it is also the most commonly chosen answer used by the Anti-ForgeWorld crowd. I don't think Peregrine (or myself) would have a problem if they wrote option 2.

I thought I was done here. I thought I had stated my piece and had left. But, through some other reading and some liquid encouragement, I feel as though I can better articulate my personal prejudices against FW units.

Transparency. For me it boils down to transparency. I know what the current codexes all look like and can reference them with ease. It is rather easy to spot if someone, whether through ignorance or malice, was trying to use an older codex that has since been replaced for lack of a better word. Now, if this was set up beforehand or is being played in a previous edition, fine whatever. I, and I'd say most of us, can tell what is or is not the most current, up-to-date rules for the various codexes and this is all transparent.

My issue with FW is that there is an appearance of lack of transparency of what is or is not the most current, up-to-date rules/books/etc. There have been how many IA books, other FW books, updates to those books, supplements to those books, and so on that it is, at least seemingly for me, much harder to keep track of than the 14 16 different codexes we have for non-FW 40k. And outside of either a few WD updates/articles and the FAQ's on GW's website, that's all there is to keep track of in non-FW 40k.

So, when my opponent wants to use FW stuff that is outside of their codex, how am I as a non-FW person supposed to know it is on the up and up so to speak and is the most current rulings/info being used as opposed to being fleeced by something other than what it currently is supposed to be? Even with having the FW books present, I cannot be sure without looking up myself on the FW website that the "correct" or most current book is being used simply due to my own lack of knowledge on the subject. If it were clearer, as especially it is my understanding that some units appear multiple times in different FW books with different stats/points/rules/etc., then I would have less of a problem with it on the whole. I can easily tell if someone is trying to use the 4th Ed. SM Codex/units as opposed to the 5th, or the 3rd Eldar Codex/units as opposed to the 4th. I cannot do so with any of the FW books. So what is to stop my opponent's from taking advantage of that knowledge gap and exploiting it?

I will say this: if someone were to go through the effort to make the seemingly byzantine system of FW books more streamlined with what has been updated where and with what book and how they look, then I would be more receptive to FW units in 40k. Some may say that is much to ask for, but then again, I'm not the one trying to play with the FW stuff.

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
There have been how many IA books, other FW books, updates to those books, supplements to those books, and so on that it is, at least seemingly for me, much harder to keep track of than the 14 different codexes we have for non-FW 40k.

FW have posted the table of contents for all their books online, so if you're really paranoid about someone cheating and using old rules then it's pretty easy to find out what book contains the most recent rules for a given unit. And it's especially easy right now since virtually everything is contained in four books (IA:Aeronautica, IA:Apocalypse, IA:Apocalypse 2, IA1 (second edition).

@ Evil Lamp 6

how do I know as a person that only owns and reads my own codex and rulebook that you playing any other army are not "cheating"(sorry for the use of that word but that is basically what you seem to be worried about, that you will be cheated).

I do not to wish to come off as rude when I typed that, just making an observation.

I think Unit1126PLL really hit the nail on the head with that last post. It is truly the heart of the argument...

quote

Say that NewPlayer10 asks if Forge World units are legal for use in regular 40k.

The Anti-ForgeWorld crowd has two options to respond:
1) "No, it is not legal"
2) "Yes, it is legal, but I personally will not play against it."

unquote

so the question is how would you(not pointing at Evil Lamp 6 in particular) answer that question?

 BarBoBot wrote:
The point is I play the game I WANT to play, and you nor anyone else no matter how much you whine or insult have any reason to disrespect me for my choice.

It depends on the reason you choose to play, or not play as the case may be. If you're a racist and refuse to play me because I'm Asian, then you bet some whining and insulting of your decision is in order.

If it's just because you don't like some units in my army, well I'm not going to insult you but that's weird, dude. There's no difference between saying "I don't want to play against Orks" and "I don't want to play against FW". Maybe you've got a good reason, but more likely you don't. I'm not going to quiz you in the gaming store to find out what your reason is, but your refusal would colour my opinion of you. That's what happens during social interactions, especially if you take the line that you don't need to defend anything you do, nor do you need to provide reasons to anyone.

Excuse me, you want to lecture me on social interactions?

YOUR the one trying to FORCE your opinion on those that don't care to play against forge world.

You think that your negative opinion of someone passing on a game with you is going to guilt the person into playing you or something?

With that attitude I'm not surprised you have trouble finding opponents. Good luck with that.

 BarBoBot wrote:
YOUR the one trying to FORCE your opinion on those that don't care to play against forge world.

And you're the one who isn't bothering to read what people are actually saying instead of just repeating over and over again that we're trying to force you to play.

Oh I've read it. If you ask someone to play a GAME and they decline for any reason, and you proceed to try and force/guilt/demand/pressure them into doing something they don't want to, your TFG.

I can't begin to describe how absolutely rediculous it is that you EXPECT people to enjoy warhammer 40k the same way you do.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Oh I've read it. If you ask someone to play a GAME and they decline for any reason, and you proceed to try and force/guilt/demand/pressure them into doing something they don't want to, your TFG.

I can't begin to describe how absolutely rediculous it is that you EXPECT people to enjoy warhammer 40k the same way you do.

First. Breathe; you're getting super heated and it looks childish.

Second; this entire thread has nothing to do with forcing people to play how FW users want them to.

It's a matter of putting together a valid case for the inclusion, so that the people that aren't ADAMANT against FW can be swayed.

Yeah, if you're insistent that you won't play with FW, your mind won't be changed. But plenty of people are on the fence, or unfamiliar. This thread is for them. These discussions are to change their mind, one way or the other. It has nothing to do with forcing anything.

-TheCaptain