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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Oh but it certainly is.

Oh, but it certainly isn't.

GK's fluff is easily one of the 3 worst reads out of all the codexes.

SW's and GK's are possibly the worst. At least the part about the Void Whale had me LoLing hardcore.

Khm,yes but did you read BA codex? Bottom of the bottoms - SW codex is just dumb and not unrealistically OP-ed, but BA and GK codexes go aginst everything in 40k....Mephiston & Draigo - dumbest poorly writen characters ever....

 Garvy wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Oh but it certainly is.

Oh, but it certainly isn't.

GK's fluff is easily one of the 3 worst reads out of all the codexes.

SW's and GK's are possibly the worst. At least the part about the Void Whale had me LoLing hardcore.

Khm,yes but did you read BA codex? Bottom of the bottoms - SW codex is just dumb and not unrealistically OP-ed, but BA and GK codexes go aginst everything in 40k....Mephiston & Draigo - dumbest poorly writen characters ever....

I only listed 2/3 worst and in that just my opinions. Yea, though more wolf for the wolfieness is offset by more blood for the bloodyness guys.

The last quest needs some more explaining as well. You go after one of the 666 most powerful daemons with just a sword and the thing's true name. But obviously we aren't going after the really powerful ones, because then, if a nekkid grey knight could handle one, they wouldn't be that powerful. And you probably can't go after just any single one, because it's unlikely that they have the true name of every single one of the 666 top daemons, otherwise they'd be able to have taken them out already. Because I feel like a true name should be a potent and rare weapon, something that you would take advantage of with a strike force, rather than sending out a shivering paladin-in-training to take care of. And if you are chasing the top 666, then wouldn't everyone just look out for the bottom one? What, do they all just kill that guy and wait for him to respawn?

Too much logic for 40K!

 Kaldor wrote:
See, it's stuff like this that proves the bandwagon theory. Have you even read the codex, gho5tdemon? Because it sure doesn't sound like it.

You don't seem to actually know what "proving a point" entails.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tuiman wrote:
So if kelly is allowed a one of for awfull fluff with wolves, then surely Ward is allowed a one off for greyknights. That is only fair right? I mean, all the ward hate is to do with grey knight fluff more than anything, so how about you give other examples of other fluff, otherwise there is no reason to say he is worse than the others. I mean, the majority say he did a good job with Necrons.

There is not a single Wardian codex that didn't have either outright garbage or lolderpy moments in fluff. The Blood Angels codex was marginally better than all the others, and the Grey Knights codex just happens to be the worst.

tuiman wrote:
So if kelly is allowed a one of for awfull fluff with wolves, then surely Ward is allowed a one off for greyknights. That is only fair right?

If it were only GK's, sure. But no, GK's are just the worst example, all 4 of his 40k books are fairly awful.

Necrons never had any hate when it was released apart from those that loved the old fluff, your just jumpin on the whole matt ward can't write good fluff band wagon all over again.

There is not a single Wardian codex that didn't have either outright garbage or lolderpy moments in fluff. The Blood Angels codex was marginally better than all the others, and the Grey Knights codex just happens to be the worst.

Every codex has its one part of garbage fluff, not just ward books

 tuiman wrote:
Necrons never had any hate when it was released apart from those that loved the old fluff, your just jumpin on the whole matt ward can't write good fluff band wagon all over again.

A lot of people loved the old fluff. Are we all just bandwagoners? Are we not allowed to be angry that an army that we played/played against for over a decade suddenly changed in such a huge way overnight?

djones520 wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
Necrons never had any hate when it was released apart from those that loved the old fluff, your just jumpin on the whole matt ward can't write good fluff band wagon all over again.

A lot of people loved the old fluff. Are we all just bandwagoners? Are we not allowed to be angry that an army that we played/played against for over a decade suddenly changed in such a huge way overnight?

And a lot of people love the new fluff, and if you are a former necron player then I respect your opinion, but there are others out there who will jump on the chance to complain who never played Necrons. A good example is that still people are right now complaining about dark angels being ward-broken, days after it being confirmed its not his book. This is simple band-wagoning.

You have fair reason to hate him fair enough, I hate kelly for long fang spam and poor wolves fluff. Its the ones who are moaning about stuff for the sake of it that is starting to get a bit old.

And regards to necrons, he probably did not have much choice in the matter, and was told to change the direction of them.

If anything, Matt has accomplished something more vile than fluff rape.

He made the word bandwagon become the go-to term for anyone who doesn't think his work is great.

I've honestly yet to meet someone who hated on ward just for the sake of being part of the cool kids. The actual idea of that is ridiculous. Honestly, all it takes is the slightest dislike of even the smallest fraction of the work he's done to make despising him justified.

Last time I will comment on this thread.

Again, there are threads and people here on dakka complaining about him making dark angels broken when he did not even write the darn book, this is jumping on the bandwagon. Hating on him for something he did not do because you to busy jumping the gun.

My opinion, for all that its worth, is yes he has had some silly moments, I'm not denying he hasn't, draigo fluff is bad, but generally his rules are solid, and all the writers are just as bad as each other.

At the end of the 40k universe can be as unbelievable as you want it to be, you can write your own fluff etc. Thats the beauty of 40k, if you dont like the fluff dont read it.

 tuiman wrote:
Again, there are threads and people here on dakka complaining about him making dark angels broken when he did not even write the darn book, this is jumping on the bandwagon. Hating on him for something he did not do because you to busy jumping the gun.

Sounds like a case of ignorance over falling in with any sort of group just because it's cool.

When such threads pop up, it is the duty of those in the know to explain the situation to those who do not know. If and when faced with evidence that their claims are wrong, and they wish to be stubborn and hold on to what they're saying while giving off signs of someone doing something only because someone else is doing it then yes, I would call that jumping on a bandwagon.

The worst people in the debate however, are not only the ones screaming about ward without fact checking, but also the ones screaming bandwagon without really knowing what that means.

Honestly, this thread shouldn't have gone past page one. Had someone just posted a link to the 1d4chan page about him, the thread could have been resolved in as little as a single reply, as that page goes not only into why people hate him, but also the concept of people wrongfully blaming everything on him.

Alas, twas not the case.

 Necroshea wrote:


Honestly, this thread shouldn't have gone past page one. Had someone just posted a link to the 1d4chan page about him, the thread could have been resolved in as little as a single reply, as that page goes not only into why people hate him, but also the concept of people wrongfully blaming everything on him.

Alas, twas not the case.

Agree, everyone has their own opinions, and you can't please everyone, these Ward threads are tiring, lets get back to talking about this hobby that we all love,

 tuiman wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:


Honestly, this thread shouldn't have gone past page one. Had someone just posted a link to the 1d4chan page about him, the thread could have been resolved in as little as a single reply, as that page goes not only into why people hate him, but also the concept of people wrongfully blaming everything on him.

Alas, twas not the case.

Agree, everyone has their own opinions, and you can't please everyone, these Ward threads are tiring, lets get back to talking about this hobby that we all love,

In the grim darkness of the future, there is no love.

Only WAR(D)!

 tuiman wrote:

djones520 wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
Necrons never had any hate when it was released apart from those that loved the old fluff, your just jumpin on the whole matt ward can't write good fluff band wagon all over again.

A lot of people loved the old fluff. Are we all just bandwagoners? Are we not allowed to be angry that an army that we played/played against for over a decade suddenly changed in such a huge way overnight?

And a lot of people love the new fluff, and if you are a former necron player then I respect your opinion, but there are others out there who will jump on the chance to complain who never played Necrons.

I am not a former Necron player and I despise Newcrons fluff, not only because metal Pirates of Caribean in spaaace but also because the awful fluff led to awful models and robots riding robots. On the table they went from omg menacing to lol silly, quite an achievement from Bombastic Matt.

 tuiman wrote:
Necrons never had any hate when it was released apart from those that loved the old fluff, your just jumpin on the whole matt ward can't write good fluff band wagon all over again.

Huh? There was lots of consternation over that, were you just wilfully not aware of that or what? It's probably the most readable of Ward's works, but it cause it's fair share of issues.


The "Bandwagon" seems to largely be something being desperately clutched to be people with Grey Knight forum avatars and Dakka join dates following that book's release.

I've played 40k for 6 years and started my knights with the old daemon hunters codex, so no. I did not jump on the gk bandwagon. The day I joined dakka is not the day I started playing, so no need to go there.

If you really care that much about fluff just go and take a book from the black library. Ward writes solid rules and thats a good thing.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The "Bandwagon" seems to largely be something being desperately clutched to be people with Grey Knight forum avatars and Dakka join dates following that book's release.

Way to attack the poster.

Some of us have join dates before and non-gk avatars. (Let's avoid making post count/start date/age/etc a central part of your argument, shall we?)

edit: I would also clarify that the bandwagon mentality is not about the opinion, but the behavior. Plenty of people dislike things. I dislike things that GW does in the fluff and rules. Doesn't mean I make them out to be the worst things ever. Do some of Ward's codexes leave things to be desired? Sure. Is the same true of other codex writers? Sure. Is Ward the worst person who ever lived because of it? No.

I mean, come on. What about that Gav Thorpe (I think it was him) story where the marines basically invade earth? That was a rich piece of our cultural treasure, right? Or what about the guys riding on the top of skimmers or land raiders and shooting multilasers? or Orks jumping their bikes through void shields? Or going back in time to kill themselves? or Kruella de Ville? or any of the other silly bits of 40k. What about inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock from Rogue Trader? 40k has always been about over the top stories and descriptions. Don't fool yourself.

All that being said, it is perfectly acceptable to dislike something without being distasteful about it. That's the problem that the Warders have.

And that problem largely stems from a second problem and that is that many perfectly reasonable people who dislike Ward have joined forces with the perfectly unreasonable folks who bandwagoned to hate him, haven't read the material well and make some pretty abysmal statements. Much like the real life Tea Party, I'm sure there are some smart people that dislike Ward but you'd never guess it for all the fools.

 tuiman wrote:
...Ward writes solid rules and thats a good thing.

Okay, if by "solid rules" you means rules that invalidate and render entire fething armies completely useless, then sure, he's very good at that! He even managed to kill an entire game with his "solid rules!"

Ward sucks because he's too OTT and doesn't ever think about how his newest, latest fanboy'ish project with work within the greater game. Not everyone wants to be shoehorned into playing a Ward army.
Unfortunately, his books are typically head-and-shoulders above the rest of the curve, thus the insane butthurt.

No one who suffered through 7th edition Daemons thinks he's a good rules writer.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
...Ward writes solid rules and thats a good thing.

Okay, if by "solid rules" you means rules that invalidate and render entire fething armies completely useless, then sure, he's very good at that! He even managed to kill an entire game with his "solid rules!"

Ward sucks because he's too OTT and doesn't ever think about how his newest, latest fanboy'ish project with work within the greater game. Not everyone wants to be shoehorned into playing a Ward army.
Unfortunately, his books are typically head-and-shoulders above the rest of the curve, thus the insane butthurt.

No one who suffered through 7th edition Daemons thinks he's a good rules writer.

I don't think that anyone will argue against 7th ed Daemons being broken. This is the 40k forum, however.

The problem with 'Matt Ward makes the most broken codexes' is that everyone forgets history. 40k has always been about broken codexes interacting with the current ruleset to make crazy armies. 3rd ed Blood Angels? You lose. 4th ed skimmer spam? You lose. 3.5 Chaos Codex? You lose. None of which were written by ward. (Heck, weren't old Necrons broken for a while?)

C:SM? Not broken, although it was well played. C:BA? Powerful for a short time. C:GK? Powerful and possiibly broken until 6th hit. C:Necrons? Strong right now.

Before that? C:SW? Powerful and possibly broken (not Ward). C:IG? Powerful and possibly broken. (Not Ward) Dominated for a while there. C:Nob Bikers? (Not Ward) Dominated for a while there.

Ward hate is often about short memories. (with the exception of 7th ed daemons, which aren't even 40k)

 pretre wrote:
Way to attack the poster.

...

I would also clarify that the bandwagon mentality is not about the opinion, but the behavior.

...

And that problem largely stems from a second problem and that is that many perfectly reasonable people who dislike Ward have joined forces with the perfectly unreasonable folks who bandwagoned to hate him, haven't read the material well and make some pretty abysmal statements. Much like the real life Tea Party, I'm sure there are some smart people that dislike Ward but you'd never guess it for all the fools.

Way to attack the poster(s)!

The point, you missed it.

I complemented many of the posters in this thread, who have perfectly legitimate opinions about the material. They have, unfortunately, joined up with the teeming masses of uneducated bandwagoners who don't.

Also, there's a difference in saying 'The posters who disagree with me never voted in the gallery and joined in 2005 so have no valid opinion' and 'Some people are making baseless statements without referring to the fluff or reading the material.'

So yeah...

 snooggums wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Way to attack the poster.

...

I would also clarify that the bandwagon mentality is not about the opinion, but the behavior.

...

And that problem largely stems from a second problem and that is that many perfectly reasonable people who dislike Ward have joined forces with the perfectly unreasonable folks who bandwagoned to hate him, haven't read the material well and make some pretty abysmal statements. Much like the real life Tea Party, I'm sure there are some smart people that dislike Ward but you'd never guess it for all the fools.

Way to attack the poster(s)!

The difference being that he backed his statement up, instead of just claiming it to be true "because I say so".

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The difference being that he backed his statement up, instead of just claiming it to be true "because I say so".

Well, I guess there's that as well.

Really, I think that the entire discourse about Ward (and GW, in general) has been distorted by the horrible discussion techniques on the internet. If people just said 'You know, I'm not a fan of Ward's fluff and think that he needs to spend more time on balance.' I would have a completely different reaction from 'OMG WARD IS THE WORST CODEX WRITER EVER!!!!111!!!!ELEVEN'. A look at 40k in general shows that it has never been balanced and Ward is not the first to make an unbalanced, broken, OTT or silly book. He just happens to be either the most recent or the one that people have grabbed on to as a kind of totem for everything they dislike about GW.

Matt Ward threads remind me of train wrecks. You know it's going to be bad but you look anyways.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 tuiman wrote:

djones520 wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
Necrons never had any hate when it was released apart from those that loved the old fluff, your just jumpin on the whole matt ward can't write good fluff band wagon all over again.

A lot of people loved the old fluff. Are we all just bandwagoners? Are we not allowed to be angry that an army that we played/played against for over a decade suddenly changed in such a huge way overnight?

And a lot of people love the new fluff, and if you are a former necron player then I respect your opinion, but there are others out there who will jump on the chance to complain who never played Necrons.

I am not a former Necron player and I despise Newcrons fluff, not only because metal Pirates of Caribean in spaaace but also because the awful fluff led to awful models and robots riding robots. On the table they went from omg menacing to lol silly, quite an achievement from Bombastic Matt.

The oldcrons fluff was an abomination most wanted to get rid of, considering they seemed to be taking "ULTIMATE EVIL ULTIMATE EVIL" to a high level, bypassing chaos, when in reality they were just tyranids with a robotic skin, they had nothing going for them except for gods which were almost at godlike powers screwing the entire universe and plotting everything and being unable to be defeated by anything yet are able to actually fight mortals... They were pretty much mary sue incarnate.

I don't think oldcron fluff was very bad, just sparse and underdeveloped.

 Vaktathi wrote:

tuiman wrote:
So if kelly is allowed a one of for awfull fluff with wolves, then surely Ward is allowed a one off for greyknights. That is only fair right?

If it were only GK's, sure. But no, GK's are just the worst example, all 4 of his 40k books are fairly awful.

This is pretty much it. Everyone screws up and makes stupid mistakes once in a while. But when an author does it EVERY codex...that's not a mistake or screw up, it's fan-spank. And arguing with Kaldor over a thread that discusses the crap that is Grey Knights is like pissing into a tidal wave. It might be entertaining for a bit, but eventually you'll realize you made a mistake, and it may cause you irreparable damage to your brain.

Lol. That analogy is causing irreparable damage to my brain.

 pretre wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The "Bandwagon" seems to largely be something being desperately clutched to be people with Grey Knight forum avatars and Dakka join dates following that book's release.

Way to attack the poster.

Some of us have join dates before and non-gk avatars. (Let's avoid making post count/start date/age/etc a central part of your argument, shall we?)

It was an observation based on the posting trends in this thread and the reasons why they may be so inclined

edit: I would also clarify that the bandwagon mentality is not about the opinion, but the behavior. Plenty of people dislike things. I dislike things that GW does in the fluff and rules. Doesn't mean I make them out to be the worst things ever. Do some of Ward's codexes leave things to be desired? Sure. Is the same true of other codex writers? Sure. Is Ward the worst person who ever lived because of it? No.

I mean, come on. What about that Gav Thorpe (I think it was him) story where the marines basically invade earth? That was a rich piece of our cultural treasure, right? Or what about the guys riding on the top of skimmers or land raiders and shooting multilasers? or Orks jumping their bikes through void shields? Or going back in time to kill themselves? or Kruella de Ville? or any of the other silly bits of 40k. What about inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock from Rogue Trader? 40k has always been about over the top stories and descriptions. Don't fool yourself.

Nobody is saying that 40k hasn't had dumb things, and quite often, they work, if set up well. With Ward, it's the combination of dumb things, and an awful writing style that create the atmosphere around him that there is. The story of Kaldor Draigo could have been very interesting had it not been written like "Kaldor Smash!" and instead more like "the tragedy of Draigo".

Gato has gotten *TONS* of hate, but hasn't written anything for 40k in years, his last book 40k book was published almost 6 years and two editions ago, and you can't even buy half his books anymore as they're out of print. As for Gav, I'm not quite sure exactly which story you're talking about so I can't comment.

The point is that Ward's fluff isn't any different from the bulk of 40k fluff. It is over the top, silly and sometimes dumb. We love 40k anyways though.

I'll try to remember that story's name. It's been a while. Almost all early fluff / BL books read like fanfic. There's a dirty secret though. It is all fanfic.

Goto just pushes the point home even more. This has been going on much longer than Ward and will go on after he is gone.