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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/24 21:52:53
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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pretre wrote:I don't think oldcron fluff was very bad, just sparse and underdeveloped.
exactly, there was only one codex IIRC
Ward completely disregarded it and rewrote them leaving basically their naming and deity origins and the war in heaven and made them metal humans in SPHES
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Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/24 21:56:17
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: pretre wrote:I don't think oldcron fluff was very bad, just sparse and underdeveloped.
exactly, there was only one codex IIRC
Ward completely disregarded it and rewrote them leaving basically their naming and deity origins and the war in heaven and made them metal humans in SPHES
Which is good. The old background with the C'tan being behind everything and everyone was just silly.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/24 21:59:47
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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In one sense, yes, you're right, it's all "fanfic" because the people writing the stuff are fans of the universe, but that doesn't mean that some of it can't read like a 12 year old twilight fans fantasy story while others read like a professional story writer wrote them.
There's a reason Cruddace gets hate for his rules but not really his fluff, there's a reason Kelly gets womped on for SW's but not for Orks or Dark Eldar largely, and there's a reason Ward gets womped on for most of his work, and chalking it all up to a Bandwagon effect is essentially simply handwaving it away without really looking at the reasons why that may be.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: pretre wrote:I don't think oldcron fluff was very bad, just sparse and underdeveloped.
exactly, there was only one codex IIRC
Ward completely disregarded it and rewrote them leaving basically their naming and deity origins and the war in heaven and made them metal humans in SPHES
Which is good. The old background with the C'tan being behind everything and everyone was just silly.
Eh, it took the menacing aspect out of them and made them Tomb Kings in Space. They're more comprehensible now, but not really any more interesting. The C'tan aspect was silly, but basically making them tomb kings with lots of very human-like personalities really took away from their mysterious and menacing aspect.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/24 22:03:52
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/24 21:59:48
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: pretre wrote:I don't think oldcron fluff was very bad, just sparse and underdeveloped.
exactly, there was only one codex IIRC
Ward completely disregarded it and rewrote them leaving basically their naming and deity origins and the war in heaven and made them metal humans in SPHES
I think you'll find that the studio disregarded it and gave a much needed rewrite for a codex that was pretty lackluster and old, but that's all subjective and hard to prove.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/24 23:36:33
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Major
London
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Outside of 40k, Ward did a pretty good job of killing WFB with demons in 7th and that rulebook in 8th.
Not got a major problem with him myself, I wish he'd write all of the army books. At least it'd be some sort of consistent design ethos.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 01:16:58
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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I mean say what you want about the tenets of Wardian design, dude, at least it's an ethos.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/25 02:20:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 05:06:34
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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ZebioLizard2 wrote:The oldcrons fluff was an abomination most wanted to get rid of, considering they seemed to be taking "ULTIMATE EVIL ULTIMATE EVIL" to a high level, bypassing chaos, when in reality they were just tyranids with a robotic skin, they had nothing going for them except for gods which were almost at godlike powers screwing the entire universe and plotting everything and being unable to be defeated by anything yet are able to actually fight mortals... They were pretty much mary sue incarnate.
They were never just "Tyranids with a robotic skin", the main issue of the oldcron codex was that the Necrons as a faction's character wasn't gone into with enough detail. The higher echelons of the Necrons always had personas, and a few sparse bits of fluff proved that, but the direction the new codex went in (Tooooooooooooooomb Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiings) effectively erased the bulk of the actual established facts of the Necrons, but more importantly, the thematic elements making up the core of their faction (Their status as the most fully anti-Chaos faction and the ultimate symbol of order, truly stagnant order, in the galaxy, their looming, cosmic horror appeal, and, not quite a thematic but something that detracts from the feel of the army, but the Necrons used to be unique in that they went to war and fought with the silence of the grave. In a universe like 40k, where everyone is a hammy greek hero or cartoon villain or a bug, this made the Necrons far more intimidating and unsettling than any amount of screaming. When a Necron spoke, it used to be a signifigant occurrence. Now, they hammily twirl their mustaches and shout their orders onto the battlefield, even when they could transmit their orders directly to the minds of their soldiers). The C'tan should never have been fieldable in their true incarnations, but the Avatar of Khaine treatment sucks. Also, they never bypassed Chaos. It was only sort of the reason they went to sleep the first time.
I can't agree with the notion that totally retconning an army to the point that they are almost unrecognisable in every way except physically is good codex design. Gone are the silent, alien-minded race who sold their souls for the sole purpose of fulfilling their hatred, in comes the army of metal men with feelings that can be broken. 5e was Codex: Emocrons.
That said, I personally have trouble imagining that Ward was the mastermind responsible for the radical fluff upheaval of Necrons, so I find it hard to blame him for that specifically.
Edit: Also, let me just say that I don't "hate" Ward. This is a fething boardgame. There are far more deserving targets of my prodigious hatred than the designer of a boardgame. Automatically Appended Next Post: pretre wrote:The point is that Ward's fluff isn't any different from the bulk of 40k fluff. It is over the top, silly and sometimes dumb. We love 40k anyways though.
I'll try to remember that story's name. It's been a while. Almost all early fluff / BL books read like fanfic. There's a dirty secret though. It is all fanfic.
Goto just pushes the point home even more. This has been going on much longer than Ward and will go on after he is gone.
Frankly, I can't agree with the notion that Ward's fluff is no different from the bulk of contemporary (Seriously, Rogue Trader fluff isn't relevant anymore) fluff. It's more over the top than is usual for this setting (Think of what this means), it is badly written on any technical level (Cruddace by comparison is "okay" in terms of writing style, and Kelly is pretty decent), it's not so much silly as it is stupid. It contradicts itself (All Grey Knights are 100% pure, Purifiers are EVEN MOAR pure, and Crowe makes normal Purifiers look like Eldar-violating Slaaneshi cultists).
Goto is a better writer than Ward. Oh yeah, I said it. Goto's accuracy towards the setting and subject matter might be lolwut, but on any technical level, he is the better writer.
Also, an unfortunate fact of the business is that it is easy to ignore Goto's works, being comprised of a few BL novels. Ward? He writes codices for the main gameline, upon which all other fluff is based. That's honestly my biggest problem with his fluff. It enforces a change upon any works licensed by GW, such as BL or FFG RPGs (Though Tome of Fate's Necron fluff is awesome, seriously, they took the best aspects of both codices and combined them).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/25 05:14:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 05:44:46
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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More OTT than void whale, driving through the cockpit of a warlord Titan, going back in time to defeat yourself, defeating a whole invasion of de with 5 SW, Vect, wolfy wolferson, decapitator who decapitates with decapitator, etc so on...
Yeah, all 40k fluff is OTT. Don't blame ward because 40k is OTT. Automatically Appended Next Post: And previous fluff, RT to now, is important. You can't say they shouldn't have change necron fluff but Goto and RT are too old. Heck Goto is more recent than oldcron fluff.
It's all the same universe and the studio moves it in the direction they want, not ward.
Want non OTT fluff? Try a different game. 40k had always been OTT and it is unlikely that will change.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/25 05:49:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 06:39:00
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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pretre wrote:More OTT than void whale, driving through the cockpit of a warlord Titan, going back in time to defeat yourself, defeating a whole invasion of de with 5 SW, Vect, wolfy wolferson, decapitator who decapitates with decapitator, etc so on...
Yes, to all. Draigo is several times more OTT than all of that combined. And it helps that Ward's fluff is more badly written.
It isn't always the details that are necessarily the breaking point, I am sure Draigo could have been a workable concept for example (And indeed, I am brainstorming ideas for how to do so in the future for a Black Crusade campaign), but it was so badly executed.
Now, IMO the Void Whale story and the Wazdakka stories were pretty stupid, but the go back in time and killing yourself story was very fitting for Orks. I admittedly can't recall the 5 SW story, but no, it can't begin to rival Draigo gallavanting throughout the Warp, punching Bloodthirsters to death. Also, Space Wolf 5e fluff was also stupid and pretty crappy, but once more, you're using several, specific single examples from single codices to invalidate critique of Ward, when really, there isn't a codex he's released that hasn't had bad fluff, IMHO. Even the Necron codex had derpy gak like the Celestial Orrery.
Yeah, all 40k fluff is OTT. Don't blame ward because 40k is OTT.
Nowhere did I say or even imply that was the sole problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And previous fluff, RT to now, is important. You can't say they shouldn't have change necron fluff but Goto and RT are too old. Heck Goto is more recent than oldcron fluff.
You're confusing me with Vaktathi. Nowhere did I refer to Goto's fluff as "too old".
RT was so radically different in so many ways, and frankly, back then the fluff was far more "skeletal", to borrow Veteran Sergeant's terminology, that you could get away with a lot more back then without being called on it.
It's all the same universe and the studio moves it in the direction they want, not ward.
I actually said that I don't blame Ward for the Necron shift in fluff. But it is Ward's pen who puts all of the details onto paper, and a lot of the time, the problem is Ward's own failing as a writer.
Want non OTT fluff? Try a different game. 40k had always been OTT and it is unlikely that will change.
Nowhere did I decry 40k for being OTT, but my point was that Ward still manages to break suspension of disbelief in this setting says a lot.
The problem here is that frankly, and in my opinion, you don't seem to take the fluff as seriously as some (Such as I), do. Which is fine.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/25 06:39:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 07:08:40
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
St. George, UT
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My problem with Ward fluff is not the concepts. The concept of Dragio is out there. The concept of BA and Necrons working together is plausable in a stretch. Just like most of the other out there concepts that GW characters are put through with the different writers lucas' stasis bomb, Wazzdakka, etc. might be just as out there or improbable. However, the main problem with Ward IMO is just the way Ward writes. As others have stated, it reads like a 12 yr old fan fick. I swear my 8 yr old son makes his leader guys ever bit as invincible as Ward writes when listening to him play with his friends. Its the words he chooses, the exaggerations are in your face instead of gently implied. He feels the need to tell you those guys are bad ass instead of making you realize it for yourself. I think that if Kelly or Crudance wrote the same idea behind Draigo he would have a different feel to him than what Ward produced. Vect may be "the man" in the DE world, be he also has come across as vindictive, sullen, ruthless, and yet faltering. Yeah, he is top dog, but you can still feel the toll it has taken on him to get there and now something more may be happening.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/25 07:12:52
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:

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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 07:37:35
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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They were never just "Tyranids with a robotic skin", the main issue of the oldcron codex was that the Necrons as a faction's character wasn't gone into with enough detail. The higher echelons of the Necrons always had personas, and a few sparse bits of fluff proved that,
Except by adding more fluff to the echeleons would dis-regard the whole "Silent and Mysterious Personas" that people enjoyed. It meant they would be slowly losing their silent touch over time regardless.
ut the Necrons used to be unique in that they went to war and fought with the silence of the grave. In a universe like 40k, where everyone is a hammy greek hero or cartoon villain or a bug, this made the Necrons far more intimidating and unsettling than any amount of screaming.
Except by giving personalities and various persona's to the Faction Character and the upper tier would prove to remove such silent and intimidation when you could figure out the thoughts behind them.
Also, they never bypassed Chaos. It was only sort of the reason they went to sleep the first time.
Aside from all the hints behind being an entire order of the Imperium (Admech) that worships their god, Giving gifts and causing trouble with the black fortress, not to mention potentially being behind several things chaos has been getting, as well as the fact that they've never been beaten, they can never be beaten, at least a Tyranid bioship can be destroyed back then, Necrons never suffered loss.
They were in essence, becoming the "Ultimate Evil" in the galaxy, overshadowing Tyranids (Which didn't attack them at all, or their planets and bypassed them even when the outer shell of a planet still would contain biomass in the soil..), to being a direct counter against the warp with all of their Technology and being anthema to daemons. Means that even chaos couldn't fight them properly, not to mention their gods put the fear in everything cept orks (What), several C'tan weapons were produced against them. Their gods could outwit others in a game of chess, but still actually come down and kill everything, and even if they weren't in the TT, they were able to interact with the world, devour stars and kill everything they see.
They were in essence, the ultimate race with no flaws, no issues, could never die, if a tomb world exploded or died they would all teleport to another.. They were the Ultimate Evil, with no flaws, no issues. They were the Mary Sue Race.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/25 07:38:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 09:11:57
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries
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I have always wondered the same thing, and reading comments explains a lot. Seems like you could get more better ideas from not basing lore, but he really should get into the lore after doing what he does to correct his mistakes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 11:11:04
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There is good grimdark OTT and silly OTT. The former is oldcrons as ultimate evil Egyptian terminators, the latter is Marneus Calgar. Ward does not understand 40k imo.
Void__Dragon wrote:They were never just "Tyranids with a robotic skin", the main issue of the oldcron codex was that the Necrons as a faction's character wasn't gone into with enough detail. The higher echelons of the Necrons always had personas, and a few sparse bits of fluff proved that, but the direction the new codex went in (Tooooooooooooooomb Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiings) effectively erased the bulk of the actual established facts of the Necrons, but more importantly, the thematic elements making up the core of their faction (Their status as the most fully anti-Chaos faction and the ultimate symbol of order, truly stagnant order, in the galaxy, their looming, cosmic horror appeal, and, not quite a thematic but something that detracts from the feel of the army, but the Necrons used to be unique in that they went to war and fought with the silence of the grave. In a universe like 40k, where everyone is a hammy greek hero or cartoon villain or a bug, this made the Necrons far more intimidating and unsettling than any amount of screaming. When a Necron spoke, it used to be a signifigant occurrence. Now, they hammily twirl their mustaches and shout their orders onto the battlefield, even when they could transmit their orders directly to the minds of their soldiers). The C'tan should never have been fieldable in their true incarnations, but the Avatar of Khaine treatment sucks. Also, they never bypassed Chaos. It was only sort of the reason they went to sleep the first time.
Yep.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/25 11:11:39
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 19:15:20
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Personally I found the old cron fluff boring and one dimsenional. It's great that they can be so versatile from evil, soulless killers to diplomatic and civilised relics of an old socety.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 20:47:07
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
The best State-Texas
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I think a lot of the Ward hate is undeserved. While most of his fluff is subpar, I really enjoyed the Necron rewrite. It went from Codex: C'tan and Friends, to Codex: Necrons.
As far as Balance goes, I honestly believe that Ward is the best of the current 40k Writers. Codex:SM has has aged well, and is a balanced book. Blood Angels got knocked down a peg, but is still a good competitive book. GK are fairly balanced now, and while Necrons are considered top dog, they were quite balanced in 5th, and as more codexes get Flyers, I think we will see the Necron codex balance out well enough.
My main problem with Kelly is, he writes codexes that are OP, don't age well, or both. Eldar were far too powerful in 4th, and did not age gracefully into 5th and 6th. Dark Eldar were a great army in 5th, and I almost picked them up. They did not age well at all. The Space Wolves codex was horrible from any standpoint. The Chaos codex was also poorly written, and felt very rushed. His best work has been the Ork codex, by far.
Cruddace either writes OP or UP books, with mediocre fluff. I personally consider him the worst writer, mainly because of his extreme internal balance issues, and poor costing for upgrades.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 21:36:57
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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Sasori wrote:I think a lot of the Ward hate is undeserved. While most of his fluff is subpar, I really enjoyed the Necron rewrite. It went from Codex: C'tan and Friends, to Codex: Necrons.
As far as Balance goes, I honestly believe that Ward is the best of the current 40k Writers. Codex: SM has has aged well, and is a balanced book. Blood Angels got knocked down a peg, but is still a good competitive book. GK are fairly balanced now, and while Necrons are considered top dog, they were quite balanced in 5th, and as more codexes get Flyers, I think we will see the Necron codex balance out well enough.
Ward books are internally balanced, which is a good thing. The external balance on the other hand...
Sasori wrote:My main problem with Kelly is, he writes codexes that are OP, don't age well, or both. Eldar were far too powerful in 4th, and did not age gracefully into 5th and 6th. Dark Eldar were a great army in 5th, and I almost picked them up. They did not age well at all. The Space Wolves codex was horrible from any standpoint. The Chaos codex was also poorly written, and felt very rushed. His best work has been the Ork codex, by far.
Cruddace either writes OP or UP books, with mediocre fluff. I personally consider him the worst writer, mainly because of his extreme internal balance issues, and poor costing for upgrades.
Kelly didn't write Eldar! It was completely re-written on him while he was off on vacation!!!
It's really not his original work, and putting his name on it was a mistake since it was mainly a choice by the head of the studio to re-write the damn thing. He was actually quite upset by what happened, as alot of the options he built into the army list were removed in favour of the 'super streamlined' model that Jervis dreamed up for Eldar/ CSM/ DA before quickly dropping that design due to mass outrage from the community.
Jervis should have slapped his name on it in the end, just like how Andy Hore's name was replaced on the Beastmen book because Kelly finished it off.
And besides, saying "Kelly's Eldar book is OP because of skimmers in 4th edition" is like saying " GK's having Storm bolters is OP in 5th edition"
The basic game mechanics made those things broken. What the hell is Kelly supposed to do? Drop skimmers from Codex: Eldar because the main rules at the time favoured skimmers? That would have been like Ward dropping Storm Bolters from GK's simply because rapid fire weapons sucked in 5th.
Dark Eldar and Chaos Marines are both better balanced overall than Grey Knights of Necrons.
The former haven't yet forced players to shelve their entire army/s and/or made playing a game about as fun as having your toenails ripped out. The latter? I'm sure we're all well aware of the butthurt that's still going on...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 21:59:20
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Experiment 626 wrote:
And besides, saying "Kelly's Eldar book is OP because of skimmers in 4th edition" is like saying " GK's having Storm bolters is OP in 5th edition"
The basic game mechanics made those things broken. What the hell is Kelly supposed to do? Drop skimmers from Codex: Eldar because the main rules at the time favoured skimmers?
How about not adding Holo-Fields to the mess?
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 22:33:15
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:
And besides, saying "Kelly's Eldar book is OP because of skimmers in 4th edition" is like saying "GK's having Storm bolters is OP in 5th edition"
The basic game mechanics made those things broken. What the hell is Kelly supposed to do? Drop skimmers from Codex: Eldar because the main rules at the time favoured skimmers?
How about not adding Holo-Fields to the mess?
Holo-fields IIRC were a staple upgrade, it would be like removing Red Paint Job from Orky vehicle options. (and yes, lots of opponents conside RPJ OTT because it gives Orky assault units additional movement ---> charge range).
And they were only stupid-good because 4th ed was the las/ plas edition and Holo-fields laughed at single-shot weapons. Come 5th once everyone started spaming the likes of autocannons or other multi-shot S6-8 weapons, guess what, Holo-fields crumbled due to sheer mass fire.
The only army that had a viable gripe about Holo-field skimmers being nearly impossible to shoot down were Tyranids... Marines got massed rending asscans out the wazoo, CSM & IG had autocannon spam, Eldar & Tau had more multi-shot S6 or better than they knew what to do with and 'Crons had the Gauss rule and simply laughed.
Notice that the final few months of 4th and come 5th edition, Holo-fields stopped curbstomping the masses because the meta had shifted to deal with them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/25 22:46:30
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Experiment 626 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:
And besides, saying "Kelly's Eldar book is OP because of skimmers in 4th edition" is like saying "GK's having Storm bolters is OP in 5th edition"
The basic game mechanics made those things broken. What the hell is Kelly supposed to do? Drop skimmers from Codex: Eldar because the main rules at the time favoured skimmers?
How about not adding Holo-Fields to the mess?
Holo-fields IIRC were a staple upgrade, it would be like removing Red Paint Job from Orky vehicle options. (and yes, lots of opponents conside RPJ OTT because it gives Orky assault units additional movement ---> charge range).
And they were only stupid-good because 4th ed was the las/ plas edition and Holo-fields laughed at single-shot weapons. Come 5th once everyone started spaming the likes of autocannons or other multi-shot S6-8 weapons, guess what, Holo-fields crumbled due to sheer mass fire.
The only army that had a viable gripe about Holo-field skimmers being nearly impossible to shoot down were Tyranids... Marines got massed rending asscans out the wazoo, CSM & IG had autocannon spam, Eldar & Tau had more multi-shot S6 or better than they knew what to do with and 'Crons had the Gauss rule and simply laughed.
Notice that the final few months of 4th and come 5th edition, Holo-fields stopped curbstomping the masses because the meta had shifted to deal with them.
Holo-fields in 4th reduced the odds of a damaging hit (which was always a glance due to SMF and the way cover interacted with vehicles) destroying the vehicle from 1/6 to 1/36. On every single Eldar vehicle. It's not the multi-shot meta that ended that, it's SMF granting cover saves instead of downgrading penetrating hits to glances. Sure, it's a staple upgrade: make it do something else. Not a sixthfold increase in survivability for a really small amount in a game where survivability comes at a premium. It makes Psybolt Dreadnoughts look reasonable in comparison.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 09:02:10
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
The best State-Texas
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Kelly didn't write Eldar! It was completely re-written on him while he was off on vacation!!!
Can you pull up some actual proof of this? I would like to see it.
And besides, saying "Kelly's Eldar book is OP because of skimmers in 4th edition" is like saying "GK's having Storm bolters is OP in 5th edition"
The basic game mechanics made those things broken. What the hell is Kelly supposed to do? Drop skimmers from Codex: Eldar because the main rules at the time favoured skimmers? That would have been like Ward dropping Storm Bolters from GK's simply because rapid fire weapons sucked in 5th.
Yes, but points costs should balance these things out, right?
Dark Eldar and Chaos Marines are both better balanced overall than Grey Knights of Necrons.
The Internal balance in both of those books is atrocicous, compared to the Grey Knight and Necron books. The Grey Knight codex saw some major shifts with this edition, putting it down where it belongs, and the Necron codex saw some improvements. Most complaints from the Necron Codex have to do with Flyer spam in 6th, which is slowly being addressed with more flyers being added in every army book.
The former haven't yet forced players to shelve their entire army/s and/or made playing a game about as fun as having your toenails ripped out. The latter? I'm sure we're all well aware of the butthurt that's still going on...
Many people have shelved or ebayed their Dark Eldar Armies, as well as their Chaos Armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 10:12:05
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Peregrine wrote:Overpowered rules with fluff that is just painful to read. Matt Ward embodies the worst fanboy stereotypes, except that somehow he managed to get a job writing official material instead of just fanfiction.
He's still writing fan-fiction. Problem is they keep publishing it...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 10:13:31
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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H.B.M.C. wrote: Peregrine wrote:Overpowered rules with fluff that is just painful to read. Matt Ward embodies the worst fanboy stereotypes, except that somehow he managed to get a job writing official material instead of just fanfiction.
He's still writing fan-fiction. Problem is they keep publishing it...
Cause it is still light-years better than what all the other writers (past or present) produce.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/26 10:15:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 14:27:21
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Many people have shelved or ebayed their Dark Eldar Armies, as well as their Chaos Armies.
I have a friend with 3 monoliths,15 destroyers that would like to have a talk with you about shelved armies....and it was actually mat ward the one ruining cc armies with his new rules set.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 14:37:35
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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It is a bummer that the Webway Portal has been nerfed, and Wyches have been nerfed. But army wide Nightfight made my Stormlord opponent very sad.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/26 14:38:04
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member. -Groucho Marx
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 14:41:13
Subject: Re:Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
The best State-Texas
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archonisthebesthqever wrote:
Many people have shelved or ebayed their Dark Eldar Armies, as well as their Chaos Armies.
I have a friend with 3 monoliths,15 destroyers that would like to have a talk with you about shelved armies....and it was actually mat ward the one ruining cc armies with his new rules set.
I have 2 Monoliths, and over 15 Destroyers. Destroyers are actually a fairly solid choice in the Fast Attack slot, second only to Wraiths, so if your friend chooses not to use them, than that's his fault.
The Monolith, I will agree, is overshadowed by the rest of the Heavy support slot.
When an Army gets a massive reboot like the Necrons, you should expect changes to the balance of units. It happens to every codex, and it's not suprising in the least when gimmick builds like the Tri-Monolith are reduced in effectiveness. Of course, the entire need for 3 Monoliths in the old codex is a different topic altogether, anyway.
As far as "His" new ruleset ruining CC armies, there is no way you can pin an entire edition on a single person, and it makes you look silly by even suggesting it. Shooting was dominant in 5th, and it's still strong in 6th. Much has not really changed there, and it's not Mat Ward's fault.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 16:01:42
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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To begin with,imo,scarabs are better than destroyers but thats not the point.You accussed kelly for writing codexes that force people to shelve their armies and i just answered you that it was mat wards rules that ruined assault armies,cause i really not see any other change that would make a de player selve his vehicles or a csm one.The only lists that ceased to exist were wych cult and berserkers spam.
Look, i really dont have a problem with Ward ,i like his work(imo the necron codex is superb and the people crying for scythewing really need to practise a bit more,i find flyers to be an awesome addition to the game) but i just can not tolerate false accusatios(you can accuse Kelly as much as you want for things like mutilators though ;D).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 16:16:36
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
The best State-Texas
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To begin with,imo,scarabs are better than destroyers but thats not the point.You accussed kelly for writing codexes that force people to shelve their armies and i just answered you that it was mat wards rules that ruined assault armies,cause i really not see any other change that would make a de player selve his vehicles or a csm one.The only lists that ceased to exist were wych cult and berserkers spam.
Explain to me how "Mat Wards rules" ruined assault armies. I answered you, that he isn't responsible for an edition, so how can you say he ruined it? The answer is, he didn't.
If you want to discuss the merits of the Necron FA slot, then I'd be happy to discuss it in a different thread.
Look, i really dont have a problem with Ward ,i like his work(imo the necron codex is superb and the people crying for scythewing really need to practise a bit more,i find flyers to be an awesome addition to the game) but i just can not tolerate false accusatios(you can accuse Kelly as much as you want for things like mutilators though ;D).
There are no false accusations. Several of Kelly's books have aged horribly, into new editions, and it's ground in fact.No one here can reasonably say that the Eldar and Dark Eldar books aged reasonably into their respective new editions. All four of Matt Wards codexes did just fine in the edition change.
DE have suffered a lot more than just the lost of Wychcult. The nerf to the Webway portal lists, hit a lot of Coven lists as well, Units like the Talos/Cronos/Beastmaster Packs. etc etc become useless. Dark Eldar were reduced from a multiple play style army, to one way to play them competitively.
The Chaos codex was poorly written all around, not just the loss of useful berzerkers, but the horrid internal balance.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/26 16:18:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 17:28:41
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Christ were to begin with.Random charge distances, overwatch,not being able to assault the turn you arive from reserves,the new wound allocation system...just use your brain.Now the most important part...Wards codex have aged well?Oh really.Tell that to a Blood angels player.From tier 1 to 3 in just a night.Have you ever played against 27 flamers, 27 screamers with ba?I guess not.Grey knights also went from the insane 9 / 16 finalists at the last adepticon to the 3/16 with allies at nova.
As a matter of fact wbb lists were buffed..reserve rolls are now 3+ and not 4+ from round 2.If your opponents were stupid enough to move inside the 12-21 inch radio threat of wbb then their fault.With de it happened exactly the opposite,at last something different from venom spam.You should check the de list that finished 6th on the last nova.Guess what it contained: talos,cronos and a huge beast pack.Crazy right?
With the addition of allies(great move from Ward) eldar and DE just got plenty of new viable builds.
On the last subject,i love the new chaos codex and i just finished my 1750 pts army list but i find it to be quiet interesting and balance,nothing cheesy or awful(except some cc units again like warp talon,mutilators).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 17:32:58
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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archonisthebesthqever wrote:Christ were to begin with.Random charge distances, overwatch,not being able to assault the turn you arive from reserves,the new wound allocation system...just use your brain.
You know that Ward didn't write 6th edition alone, right? It was the studio. In fact, Vetock and Troke, along with Ward, wrote it. Read the credits "WRITTEN BY: Adam Troke, Jeremy Vetock and Mat Ward"
This is the problem with Warders. Consistently plowing forward with complete disregard for the facts.
Now the most important part...Wards codex have aged well?Oh really.Tell that to a Blood angels player.From tier 1 to 3 in just a night.Have you ever played against 27 flamers, 27 screamers with ba?I guess not.Grey knights also went from the insane 9 / 16 finalists at the last adepticon to the 3/16 with allies at nova.
So Ward is now responsible for the Daemons update and the content of armies at Adepticon or Nova (two completely different types of events, imo). Oh and let's add in arbitrary tiers for codexes as well.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/26 17:34:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 17:45:46
Subject: Why Do people Always complain about Matt Ward from GW?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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You know you should check my above post where i say that i do not have a problem with Ward...but unlike you guys i am gonna point his mistakes and not gonna pretend he is god just because he wrote my codex.And yes grey knights codex being broken in the end of 5th edition is exactly the reason that this particular codex dominated adepticon,although on 6th its pretty balance.Same thing is happening right now with deamons.Furthermore,i would like to point out something that none of you mentioned earlier.The game has become more balance imo and i would like to congratulate the rulesbook writers,now every army can compete for the top spots.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/26 17:46:19
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