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 H.B.M.C. wrote:


My point remains - if it wasn't such a big thing, it wouldn't be such a big thing. That's circular logic in that the conclusion includes the premise, but it's like the "famous for being famous" thing that we attach to certain people. If it were minor. If it were untrue. If there wasn't some nugget of truth to it, then it simply wouldn't keep returning like this.

Sure there is.

It's not like this is the first (or even largest) non-issue getting blown out of proportion on the internet.

It is such a big issue because people comb the Ward work for those supposed "nuggets of truth" to perpetuate the silly meme (and only Ward's work), not because there is any substantive thing behind it.

- That's how the comparatively harmless "against-the-odd" of an 8 foot Ultramarines-Captain beating a 10 foot Eldar Avatar is considered a travesty, but the "against-the-odds" of a single Phoenix Lord defending an entire Planet against a Tyranid Hive Fleet is simply accepted.

- That is how Ward's Blood Angels-Necrons-alliance of desperation is plastered all over as the ultimate fluff-crime, but the far more atrocious Space Wolves-inviting-Eldar-to-a-Wolfy-Dance-on-Fenris is accepted.

- That is how Ward's Grey Knights butchering Sisters is a wrong-doing beyond all proportions, but Kelly's Space Wolves butchering Sisters is a.o.k.

Its the very bias that makes this self-perpetuating.

'Ward-Hate' is right up there on the internet with 'Aliens-Shot-JFK' and 'MTV-faked-the-Armstrong-moon-landing' or the million U.S. citizen still firmly believing that "Barack-Obama-is-a-Muslim-and-was-born-in-Africa".

It's nonsense, but people who believe in it will continue to "find evidence" and ignore all reason, just so they can cling to their little piece of desperation.

 Zweischneid wrote:
- That is how Ward's Grey Knights butchering Sisters is a wrong-doing beyond all proportions, but Kelly's Space Wolves butchering Sisters is a.o.k.

I heard a small rumor the other year that the Bloodtide story was actually in the GK background before, it just got omitted between then and now. I dunno; I started playing in 3e, and I really didn't know much about anything for years after that, so it would've been before my time.

I just wish I hadn't given in to my impulses and totally butchered the beautifully painted metal GK Terminator I had. Though in my defense, I had been up all night, so impulse control and thinking abilities were quite... iffy.

Sorry Zwie, can ya speak up? I can't hear you over the sound of that axe you're grinding.

Funny how you always accuse others of failing to respond to "actual cogent arguments", yet all you you ever do in response to people pointing out the glaring holes in your ramblings is responding with either personal insults or lame one-liners that you think deflect attention from the logical errors behind your anti-Ward ramblings.

And the only axe I grind, is the axe against mendacity.

Wow, 14 pages already.
People REALLY must hate Ward since there is 14 pages of complains against him...

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Wow, 14 pages already.
People REALLY must hate Ward since there is 14 pages of complains against him...

Half the content of the thread is people pointing out how silly most of the complaints are though.

It is kind of an old subject, I wish people would just drop i t.

 Necroshea wrote:
The Desecrators name is Matt, not sure why they would be lazy and give him the nickname Mat. It's just one more key poke.

Is part of the meme now spelling his name with two Ts? I believe he spells it with only one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Given how quickly a lot of people here (not you) seem to dismiss any level of criticism as mindless 'hate' in an attempt avoid making an actual cogent arguments, can you blame me for drawing such a conclusion?

Since you were talking to me and since you know me, I'd say yes I can blame you.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My point remains - if it wasn't such a big thing, it wouldn't be such a big thing. That's circular logic in that the conclusion includes the premise, but it's like the "famous for being famous" thing that we attach to certain people. If it were minor. If it were untrue. If there wasn't some nugget of truth to it, then it simply wouldn't keep returning like this.

I think you're coming closer to the problem with that "famous for being famous" line than you think. The vitriol directed against Ward far exceeds any of its own premises. It is exaggeration for the sake of exaggeration, which seems like one of the dominant modes of the internet. When everything flashes by so fast and in the context of a thousand million other things, you might feel like you have to be OTT to get across. It's got to be in huge white letters on a ridiculous picture. This explains why I say Ward hate is not justified and you take it to mean that no cirticism of his work can possibly be valid. As has been pointed out time and time again, all the criticisms aimed at Mat Ward can be aimed with just as much justification at other studio employees. But they aren't. Why? For the exact same reason that Chuck Norris is a meme but Tony Sevalas isn't. It's arbitrary noise. You say it's valid because it keeps coming up. But that's like saying a song is good because the volume is turned up.

I've just read this whole thread - Can't we all just get along?

My 2p.
Overall, I don't hate Mat Ward. He's no better or worse than any of the other GW writers.

I dislike the BA codex (due to fluff) but I have to give Matt Ward his due.
He took under represented armies, wrote new books and sold a shed load of models for GW. Which are still competitive in 6th edition. So they are still selling. Which is good for GW and by extension us. Because this game we love/hate/can't leave alone is going well - there's more now available to get into the universe than ever.
6th is my favourite edition so far (which I believe he helped to write) It's meant my eldar have appeared more often
and I don't just get stomped by everything turn 1. Now you have to wait till turn two to charge more often than not and the game is better for it.

The Necron codex - the army needed fleshing out. I don't hate it (I'll admit I'm not a fan of mss) but it needed doing.

The GK codex - I don't like the way the mysterious ultimate sanction marines are now everywhere. But that's because of a number of reasons which I think are valid
1)Decent Rules
2)One of the lower costed armies to buy
3)lots of people went "Ooh Shiny!" when they came out

The SM codex - I really like. Even the bit about all other marines wanting to be Ultramarines. Because the Ultramarines would say that wouldn't they?

The only codex I have trouble with is the BA codex. I don't like the implication that everyone is afraid of Dante - The pre game nerf to any character he wants just feels a bit wrong.
Abaddon the Despoiler - has just gone done in power pre-game. Why? Because Dante. I'd be fine if it had to be done on a roll, but just going 'I've got Dante, so you are worse'?

I also don't like the sanguinor.
"Here I come to save the daaay!
I've just flown in from...wherever...to save the day!"
"Only we've never heard of you?"
BA turns to friend - "well I don't know about you, but I'm convinced".
It just felt badly shoehorned in. And I don't like the implication that the BA are unable to deal with some threats so they fly in the super blood angel
Marine+ = Blood Angel.
Blood Angel+ = The Sanguinor.

Mephiston as the 'lord of death' should be perfectly able to deal with any random threat without the BA equivalent of Mighty Mouse.
But it's still better than a first founding legion having a pdf for rules.

All I'm hoping for in the way of new armies from GW is that the unit costs in the codex balance out - For example if the new DA dex when it hits is costed well for what it can bring to the table, then I'll be happy. (I know Mat Ward didn't write it, I'm just making a general point to finish)
I'm just curious to what we'll be complaining about next month. If the Dark Angels are balanced, then fine. If they are overpowered/undercosted, will we moan about the new author breaking the game or Phil Kelly's chaos not being competitive enough and we'll all be shelving them until the next codex?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry Zwie, can ya speak up? I can't hear you over the sound of that axe you're grinding.

IRONY!

Wow... The Sanguinor is basically the Blood Angels version of Saint Celestine.

Well, except that, iirc, the Sanguinor is strongly hinted to be someone in disguise. Whereas Celestine is 'just' a living saint.

Have to dig out my BA codex.

 pretre wrote:
Well, except that, iirc, the Sanguinor is strongly hinted to be someone in disguise. Whereas Celestine is 'just' a living saint.

Have to dig out my BA codex.

Why did I just have the image of Scooby-Doo and the gang unmasking the Sanguinor to reveal old man Wickles who was trying to scare the Blood Angels.

And it would have worked too if it wasn't for you meddlesome Inquisitors!

Doesn't the sanguinor have a bucket load of possible reasons? Like he is the personification of their Primarch? Or that he is actually one of the chapter masters in disguise? Or that he is a robot killing machine sent from the future to erase the enemies of the blood angels in the past? Wait.... wut?....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok how is this for diplomatic...

Mat Ward writes powerful codexes that have a lot of cheese possibilities in them. By no fault of his own players use these cheese lists to spam the battlefield and basically auto win (or at least guarantee themselves a very high win rate).

Phil Kelly writes mediocre codexes that are roundly balanced and generally stay mid-tier throughout their life span. The SW are an exception to this in being a very easily spammable codex. Possibly his only work of any top tier quality (by no fault of his own).

Robin Cruddance generally writes great/bad codexes depending on his interest in the actual army. Either he likes them and they are great OR he doesn't like them and they suck. IMO the worst writer for codexes.

Though again I'm going to point out I don't like the fact that players turn powerful Ward 'dexes into cheese lists. Whether he intended their use that way or not, I don't dislike the guy.

I think this sums up the arguement as to why people hate Ward. It's mostly misdirected, it's largely the player base that makes the lists cheese, however Mat Ward has become some what of a figurehead for the cheese list hate, partly his own fault for writing powerful codexes, but actually down to the players who abuse those 'dexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
/thread

 pretre wrote:
Well, except that, iirc, the Sanguinor is strongly hinted to be someone in disguise. Whereas Celestine is 'just' a living saint.

Have to dig out my BA codex.

Good to know. ^^

This thread is literally everything I know about the Sanguinor.

Before this thread, all I knew is that it was a silly looking HQ model for the Blood Angels.

I, um... I don't play Blood Angels... or against Blood Angels... or even have the Blood Angels Codex. Sorta by choice, because they don't interest me - though the Sanguinary Guard backpacks do, and frankly, Celestine looks loads better with one of those on her back compared to the cherub-hoisted backdrop - so I don't collect them, and my regular (read: only) opponent uses my models and isn't much interested in getting her own, plus she likes the Orks for their straightforward tactics.

P.S. if you were curious how Celestine looks with a Sanguinary Guard jump pack:

https://d.facdn.net/art/andreyis/1342971686.andreyis_valeria.jpg

Apologies for the crappy paint job, particularly the sloppiness in getting the flesh tone on the hair; I absolutely suck at painting faces, because my hands aren't steady enough to paint eyes - either they tremble too much and it looks terrible, or I spend so much time forcing my hand not to shake, and slowly move to put the dot there without shaking, that without loading the paintbrush up with too much paint for the task, the tip is actually dry enough that it doesn't transfer any paint onto the model. Eventually, I just gave up painting face detail entirely, and every model in my army has its eyes closed - and I'm sure there's a rules lawyer out there who's vicious enough to try to assert that my models can't draw line of sight to anything because they have no eyes painted on, but I never have to play against them. Also, I don't shade... or highlight. Drybrushing is about as far as I go.

I'll have to check her out later, blocked from work. I'm a fan of Celestine kitbashes though.

 pretre wrote:
Well, except that, iirc, the Sanguinor is strongly hinted to be someone in disguise. Whereas Celestine is 'just' a living saint.

Have to dig out my BA codex.

If my memory serves me well he is in fact Sanguinius or his spirit. Probably his psychic manifestation.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

Mat Ward writes powerful codexes that have a lot of cheese possibilities in them. By no fault of his own players use these cheese lists to spam the battlefield and basically auto win (or at least guarantee themselves a very high win rate).

So...a rules designer creating a ruleset open to abuse bears no responsiblity for people abusing it? I thought that was called bad game design.

GW has plenty to game design faults and always has. It is part of their charm.

It is a little silly to lay it all at Ward's feet.

I agree, Ward is not to blame for EVERYTHING GW publish.
I am just against his OTT fluff pieces like Draigo, Bloodtide, Mepohiston going trough entire Tyranid invasion force alone and with only his hands and Ultramarines fanfiction in Space Mairnes codex, not to mention under-powered Necrons...

But overall I am supporter of his rules, his rules are really fine. GK were OP when they came out but with 6'th edition they are fine now.

 pretre wrote:
GW has plenty to game design faults and always has. It is part of their charm.

It is a little silly to lay it all at Ward's feet.

I won't disagree with that at all, nor would I ever attempt to lay *all* of GW's ills at Ward's feet, just pointing out that that particular statement seemed to exclude laying any blame at his feet.


EDIT: also wanted to address these

Zweischneid wrote:

- That's how the comparatively harmless "against-the-odd" of an 8 foot Ultramarines-Captain beating a 10 foot Eldar Avatar is considered a travesty, but the "against-the-odds" of a single Phoenix Lord defending an entire Planet against a Tyranid Hive Fleet is simply accepted.

personally I really don't have an issue with the Avatar thing, really it's a manner of the writing. The Phoenix Lord thing is written very vaguely practically as myth, and thus can be taken lots of ways (e.g. the way in the Lord of the Rings where Gandalf states that Theodin stands alone even when Aragorn, Gimli and others fight by his side...), while Calgar's more detailed and cartoony in how it's portrayed.

- That is how Ward's Blood Angels-Necrons-alliance of desperation is plastered all over as the ultimate fluff-crime, but the far more atrocious Space Wolves-inviting-Eldar-to-a-Wolfy-Dance-on-Fenris is accepted.

Most won't argue that the most of the SW fluff in particular is just as bad. That said, at least at that time, the Necrons were still Omnicidal automotons, the Eldar have a history of being some-time allies of the Imperium when circumstances demand and a degree of their own form of honor.

- That is how Ward's Grey Knights butchering Sisters is a wrong-doing beyond all proportions, but Kelly's Space Wolves butchering Sisters is a.o.k.

One is engaging in a ritual more thematically appropriate to the foes the GK's are supposed to destroy and completely out of character for almost everyone's perception of the GK's, and involves literal sacrificial butchery, the other is a theological war with the Ecclesiarchy that the Space Wolves happen to win.

 pretre wrote:
IRONY!

I only had one axe to grind, but the new Chaos Codex is out so I don't need it any more.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
IRONY!

I only had one axe to grind, but the new Chaos Codex is out so I don't need it any more.

But it is soooo sharp now.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Most won't argue that the most of the SW fluff in particular is just as bad. That said, at least at that time, the Necrons were still Omnicidal automotons, the Eldar have a history of being some-time allies of the Imperium when circumstances demand and a degree of their own form of honor.

If other authors write fluff just as bad, there is no need to single out Mat Ward.

As for the Necron/Eldar thing, the Blood Angel story specifically mentioned the "enigmatic Silent King" as the key-Necron personality in the decision. No Omnicidal automotons anywhere. And it was a temporary battle-field alliance demanded by circumstances (a massive Tyranid attack) in ways the Eldar/Space Wolves story was not. The Eldar were simply welcome into the most sacred hall of the Space Wolves, partaking in sacred Space Marine burial rituals, having lots of drink, etc.., when on the very same page the Wolves shoot (unprovoked) the Sisters out of the sky for daring to fly too close to the Fenris system.

 Vaktathi wrote:

One is engaging in a ritual more thematically appropriate to the foes the GK's are supposed to destroy and completely out of character for almost everyone's perception of the GK's, and involves literal sacrificial butchery, the other is a theological war with the Ecclesiarchy that the Space Wolves happen to win.

One is fighting the Imperium's/Grey Knights arch-enemies, the Daemons of Chaos, in a typical Imperial "the-end-justifies-the-means" story. The very same story also exemplifies why the Grey Knights, among all the factions and sub-groups of the Imperium, are the only one who have (by both the old Codex and the new) never seen one of their members fall to Chaos. The extremes to which they go provides grim-dark substance to that particular ruthless vigilance of the Grey Knights that was sorely missing in Codex: Daemonhunters, where it was simple a fiat-writer statement without context.

And there is no "theological war with the Ecclesiarchy" in the Space Wolves book except for the one that Space Wolves started by surprise-attacking the Ecclesiary for flying too close (while, on the same page, having no objection to Eldar doing merry-go-rounds with them in the Great Hall of Fenris.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I agree, Ward is not to blame for EVERYTHING GW publish.
I am just against his OTT fluff pieces like Draigo, Bloodtide, Mepohiston going trough entire Tyranid invasion force alone and with only his hands and Ultramarines fanfiction in Space Mairnes codex, not to mention under-powered Necrons...

But overall I am supporter of his rules, his rules are really fine. GK were OP when they came out but with 6'th edition they are fine now.

Last year - well, okay, a year and a half ago - when I first learned about that Bloodtide story, I flipped a lid. Mutilated a GK Termie model I had sitting around out of rage and everything.

But when I was describing that piece of fluff on another forum, I laughed a little, because the whole thing was just ridiculous and showed how ignorant and superstitious the 41st Millennium is for humanity. (So, we're going to kill our own side's holy warriors because their blood is pure of taint, so we can use their blood in a ritual to bless our armor, and this will certainly curry the favor of their god.) If that kind of thing worked, odds are good that they'd be practically invulnerable to demonic taint by making a habit of murdering Sisters of Battle and stretching their skin over their armor plating and weapons. Surely the skin of a Sororitas would be more protective than a dab of blood diluted in oils and other reagents here and there, at least if it's their physical properties that protect them, rather than their supernaturally strong faith.

But of course, if they skinned the Sororitas, it would cross into the place of Chaos. Taking the blood and mixing it with oils for a dab is a more civilized ritual than strapping the skin of dead people to your armor. And to be honest, I'm getting a little nauseated thinking about it, and if that had actually been what was written... yeah, icky factor too high for loyalist Imperials. Maybe Chaos or Dark Eldar.

It's the same kind of thinking that leads a person from, "I have a social disease," to, "If I have sex with a virgin, it'll cure it," because, "virgins are pure."

Hell, if it worked, they could save countless resources and time by simply cloning Sororitas skin samples and integrating it into a layer in their armor!

Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos.

Is it?

Why has (so far) no Grey Knight ever fallen to Chaos?

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos.

Is it?

Why has (so far) no Grey Knight ever fallen to Chaos?

Really?

Grey Knights are both mentally and physically trained to resit daemons, they are trained to fight daemons and have most of their armoury dedicated to battling the warp. They are brainwashed into hating daemons even further than daemons and constantly train against the warps temptations.

(Also)

Sisters aren't really trained to fight daemons, yes they have a slightly greater chance of resisting them than say Space Marines, but they are really dedicated to hunting down cults and witches, not the daemonic. I don't think the Bloodtide is a terrible idea, just the slaughter of the sisters is odd and is just out of character.