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I have a hard time with this ruling. If Abby wants to join berserkers, his mark of khorne is not different than their mark of khorne. They do not have a different mark then him. If they had the mark of chaos undivided on the other hand they would have a different mark then him.

Perhaps I misread the rule, but the unit must not have the different mark, not him, correct? And because there is only 4 marks, no marked unit will have a different mark than him. He may have a different mark then they do, by virtue of multiple marks, but we are looking at the unit.

Abby has four marks, K, S, T, N

Zerkers have Mark K

Both Abby and Zerkers have Mark K, but Abby also has Marks S, T, and N, which Zerkers do not have.

That's where the breakdown occurs. The unit has a different mark 3 times for every 1 time they have a similar mark.

kaisshau wrote:It comes down to this. Is having four Marks of Chaos the same as having "a" Mark of Chaos?

Of course having 4 marks is not the same as having one. That's not the issue.

If you have a Mark of Chaos, then you have a Mark of Chaos.

If you have two Marks of Chaos, then you have a Mark of Chaos. That doesn't mean that you're the same as someone with one... you clearly have two. But a Mark of Chaos belongs to you, so you have a Mark of Chaos. You can be described either as someone with 2 Marks, or as someone with a Mark.

'a' never equals '4'... It only ever means one. But in one usage - 'may select a' - it is limiting, while in another usage - 'has a' - it is simply descriptive. Blame it on the vagaries of the English language.

Dozer Blades wrote:The rules only state a mark... By RAW he has all four so he can join any unit.

An ork unit that has a Waaagh Banner gains +1 to their WS.

If the unit has 4 Waaagh banners, what happens?

That's out of context.

Lots of waaaaaaaaargh?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's out of context.

No, it's the exact same situation.

Please answer the question.

It is out of context as they fulfill completely different roles.

Its the same situation. Unit X has 4 of Y. rule says if unit has a Y then Z.

You state that because Abaddon (X) has 4 Marks (Y) then the rule disallowing him from joining a marked unit if they do not have the same marks (Z) does not appty.

But we know that if a nob unit (X) had 4 waagh banners (Y) then they would get +1WS (Z) the rule still applies

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It is out of context as they fulfill completely different roles.

You what now? The role a unit fulfils changes the meaning of a piece of text now?


You're going to need to explain that one, methinks.

Again, isn't the unit the only mark that matters?

Abbadon "may not join a unit with a different mark."

Is the khorne berserkers mark different from abbadon? They have the mark of khorne, he has the mark of khorne. If you have sections for protein, carbohydrate, and fats and can not put a food in a section with a different type, a food like breaded chicken that is all 3 can go in any section as it is a protein, carb and fatty food.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It is out of context as they fulfill completely different roles.

Troll season. No bag limit thru New Years.

DevianID wrote:
Is the khorne berserkers mark different from abbadon?

Since they don't have the Mark of Slaanesh, yes.

While they don't have the mark of slaneesh, absence of a mark on a unit does not preclude joining it. An unmarked squad does not have the mark of slaneesh either after all, and abandon is allowed to join them.

DevianID wrote:
While they don't have the mark of slaneesh, absence of a mark on a unit does not preclude joining it. An unmarked squad does not have the mark of slaneesh either after all, and abandon is allowed to join them.

Absence of a mark on a unit DOES preclude someone WITH that mark from joining it.

So a character with the mark of slaneesh can not join an unmarked squad?

DevianID wrote:
While they don't have the mark of slaneesh, absence of a mark on a unit does not preclude joining it.

No, but having a different mark does. Abaddon has the Mark of Slaanesh. Berzerkers have the Mark of Khorne. Those Marks are different.

DevianID wrote:
So a character with the mark of slaneesh can not join an unmarked squad?

No, because that unit does not have another Mark, and as such does not fulfil the criteria of the special rule preventing the IC from joining the unit. I was referring to this particular case.

The issue is the units mark, not abbadons additional marks. We know that a unit not having a mark is not enough for the character to be prohibited. They have the same mark.

The error I think you guys are making is that while you agree he has the same mark as berserkers, you are also saying that he is joining a unit with a different mark. He is not. The opposite its true, the unit is being joined by a character with a different mark, but there its no restriction that direction.

Think about other examples. You may not put a CD on a shelf with different styles. If a CD is both country and rock, it can go on a shelf of either country or rock, but the rock shelf could not be moved to a country and rock shelf. The shelf determines the restrictions, not the cd.

Abbadons Christmas jams vol1 is a little bit country and a little bit rock and roll. He can go on either shelf, as the restriction is based on the shelf, not the CD.

DevianID wrote:
The issue is the units mark, not abbadons additional marks.

No, the issue is that the IC can not join a unit with a different mark.

Abaddon has (amongst other things) the Mark of Slaanesh. Berzerkers have a different Mark.

Think about other examples. You may not put a CD on a shelf with different styles. If a CD is both country and rock, it can go on a shelf of either country or rock, ....

Given your restriction, I would disagree. This has the same problem as Abaddon does. Yes, the CD is rock... but it's also Country, and so can not go on the Rock shelf.

I think this will be locked soon.....it's a pointless argument because its raw vs rai......you will never be able to resolve it until a FAQ is issued. If you played against me I would let abandon join any unit period......but other people see it different.

Lets wait and see when it gets FAQ updated

Abaddon has (amongst other things) the Mark of Slaanesh. Berzerkers have a different Mark.

This is the issue here. What is the mark that Berserkers have that is different from Abbadon? They only have the Mark of Khorne, and their mark of Khorne is not different from Abbadon's mark of Khorne--infact the unit has the same mark as him.

Apples can go into a fruit bin, but not all fruit can go into an apple bin. Abbadon IS an apple, as well as an orange, coconut and pear. Abbadon can go into an apple bin, because he is an apple. An apple can not go into an Abbadon bin, but that is irrelevent because the restriction is on the apple bin.

DevianID wrote:
Apples can go into a fruit bin, but not all fruit can go into an apple bin. Abbadon IS an apple, as well as an orange, coconut and pear.

So if you put him in the apple bin, you'll have people asking what this orange, coconut and pear are doing in there...

So if you put him in the apple bin, you'll have people asking what this orange, coconut and pear are doing in there...

is he not an apple?

That's just it - he is definitely an apple.

DevianID wrote:

So if you put him in the apple bin, you'll have people asking what this orange, coconut and pear are doing in there...

is he not an apple?

No. He's some freakish hybrid of apple, orange, coconut and pear, apparently. Which definitely has no place in amongst the apples.

Insaniak, thats just it... its not a hybrid mark or fruit or whatever, Abbadon is 4 seperate things at once. Normally its impossible but he is obviously special.

You say he is a hybrid apple thing, aka a 5th mark, but this is not the case. He is marked khorne, and he has the same mark as a unit of berserkers. The fact that he is other things, or could be in a different squad, does not matter. All that matters is what one singular squad he is in now.

Consider another chaos lord with the mark of khorne.

You say abbadon can not join the chaos lord with the mark of khorne, because the lord with the mark of khorne has a different mark than Abbadon. This is false, as the lord's singular mark is the same mark that abbadon has--the khorne lord does not have a different mark at all.

However, the reverse is true. The chaos lord with the mark of khorne can not join abbadon, as Abbadon has a different mark than the character who wishes to join him has.

The question is simple... what mark does the unit the character wish to join have? Is that unit's mark different from the marks that abbadon has?

I do understand what you are trying to say. You are trying to say that the units mark of khorne is different from abbadon's other marks, but the restriction doesnt work that way. He can not join a unit with a different mark, but the unit has the same mark as him--the mark of khorne.

DevianID wrote:
You say he is a hybrid apple thing, aka a 5th mark, but this is not the case.

It was your analogy. I just ran with it.

He is marked khorne, and he has the same mark as a unit of berserkers. The fact that he is other things, or could be in a different squad, does not matter. All that matters is what one singular squad he is in now.

The problem with that is that the rules don't tell us to ignore his other marks.

Yes, he has one mark that is the same as the unit he is joining. But he also has other marks... and nothing in the rules tells you that you only choose to compare a single mark in order to determine if they match.

You say abbadon can not join the chaos lord with the mark of khorne, because the lord with the mark of khorne has a different mark than Abbadon. This is false, as the lord's singular mark is the same mark that abbadon has--

Which one?

On what basis are you picking and choosing which mark is the same?

Abbadon (an independant character with a mark of chaos) "may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos." The mark of khorne is not a different mark of chaos.

The mark of slaneesh is different from the mark of khorne, but the rule doesnt say 'An independent character with the mark of slaneesh may not join a unit with a different mark than the mark of slaneesh.'

The unit does not have a different mark of chaos than abbadon. The unit has the mark of Khorne. This is the same mark that abbadon has.

Abbadon fits the first subject line in the rule as he is "an independant character with a mark of chaos." It doesnt matter what mark or mark he has at this point, only that the IC is marked. Subbing in for abbadon, it reads 'An independant character with the mark of khorne and slaneesh and tzeentch and nurgle."

The second subject is "a unit with a different mark of chaos." Again, the mark is not specific, it just needs to be different than whatever the character has. In the case of Abbadon, a unit with the mark of khorne is not a unit with a different mark of chaos, as Khorne is one of the marks that abbadon has concurrently with the others.

Except it's not called the Mark of Khorne / Slanesh / Tzeentch Nurgle, it's called the Mark of the Chaos Ascendant...

He nowhere in his profile is stated to have each and all marks separately, but in something unique that is stated to grant the same effect...

Why all the hate on poor Abaddon?

GoliothOnline wrote:
Except it's not called the Mark of Khorne / Slanesh / Tzeentch Nurgle, it's called the Mark of the Chaos Ascendant...

He nowhere in his profile is stated to have each and all marks separately, but in something unique that is stated to grant the same effect...

Why all the hate on poor Abaddon?

It's not hate for Abby, Insaniak argues for RAW, since that is what you're supposed to do, I've gotten into heated arguments with him in YMDC before, it's never anything personal, it's just you need to learn that YMDC runs on RAW... and even by RAW standards, it is in the tenets of YMDC in the stickied section.