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DevianID wrote:
Rigeld, I am not only comparing one mark. I also didnt pick anything. While Kevlar may have said something incorrect in a roundabout way, he still got it right. You are avoiding the main question presented.

How many marks do Berserkers have that are different from Abbadon?

The units Mark is different from 3 of Abby's Marks.
I'm not avoiding the main question. You're stopping with one comparison and claiming everything is satisfied. Why are you stopping at one comparison?

The rule states that you cannot have a different mark, Abby does, rule applies

The rule states you can not join a unit with a different mark. Abby having a different mark is not in the rule--rule does certainly not apply. The unit needs to have a different mark--not abbadon like you said. This reversal error has been happening a lot here, where people start out talking about a unit and then say that abbadon is different. No one cares if abbadon is different. Only the unit matters.

The units Mark of Khorne is different t from Abby's Mark of Nurgle.

The units mark of khorne is also idfferent from abbadons powerfist, and his terminator armor. But that is not the rule. The unit's mark must be different to abbadon entirely, as the rule applies to the entire model. What you are saying is that Kharn can not join Khorne CSM, because their mark is different as it cost points while Kharns didnt. You changed the argument when you start talking about specific things on a model instead of the entire model.

Berzerkers have zero different marks from Abbadon. They have 1 mark that is different to Abbadons powerfist, but that comparisson is NOT the rule, and using that as a rule requires changing the wording of the said rule.

The units Mark is different from 3 of Abby's Marks.

Again you changed the rule... Is the unit's mark different from abbadon? Or is it only different from some specific thing on abbadon that is not part of what the rule is asking.

Edit: Grammer wise, you changed the noun from Abbadon to mark.

DevianID wrote:
It is being read wrong is how you are messing it up.

Abbadon has 4 things. Let's call them milk, bread, eggs, and cheese. He can not have something different. He can have milk, as milk is not different.

I feel DevianID's frustration here. I hate the bread, cheese thing but if that's the way people want to play it:

Assume 'Mark of Chaos' = Fruit

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." becomes "An Independent Character with a fruit may not join a unit with a different fruit."

I believe everyone agrees with the following example (apologies for any errors in nomenclature, it's been a while):

1) If the IC has a different fruit than the unit, they may not join (P)
2) The IC has an apple (A)
3) The unit has a banana (A)
4) Apples are different than bananas (A)
5) The IC has a different fruit than the unit (C) (2,3,4)
6) The IC may not join the unit (C) (1,5)

By the same logic:

1) If the IC has a different fruit than the unit, they may not join (P)
2) The IC has an apple (A)
3) The IC has a banana (A)
4) The IC has a pear (A)
5) The IC has an orange (A)
6) The Unit has an apple (A)
7) Apples are different than bananas (A)
8) The IC has a different fruit than the unit (C) (3,6,7)
9) The IC may not join the unit (C) (1,8)

To bring it back to the actual situation:

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

All this statement relies upon is that the IC has a (singular) Mark of Chaos that differs from a (singular) Mark of Chaos in the unit in question. It doesn't matter if the unit has 3/4 or 2/4 or 1/4 Marks that are the same. All it requires is for one mark to be different (from the point of view of the IC).

In Abaddon's case, because he has all 4 Marks, that means he can only ever join units that have exactly the same 4 Marks as him or none at all. It doesn't matter in the slightest that he may share 1, 2, or even 3 of the same Marks (even though there is no such Unit), only that the unit has one (or more) Marks that are different from his 4 Marks.

RAW - Abaddon may only join Units with no Marks, or all 4 Marks.
RAI - Abaddon can join any Marked or non-Marked unit.
HWIPI - Abaddon can join any Marked or non-Marked unit. Provided the owning player isn't planning on shooting Torrents out of a Helldrake's arse...

DoW

DevianID wrote:

The units Mark of Khorne is different t from Abby's Mark of Nurgle.

The units mark of khorne is also idfferent from abbadons powerfist, and his terminator armor. But that is not the rule. The unit's mark must be different to abbadon entirely, as the rule applies to the entire model. What you are saying is that Kharn can not join Khorne CSM, because their mark is different as it cost points while Kharns didnt. You changed the argument when you start talking about specific things on a model instead of the entire model.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm comparing a units Mark of Chaos (Khorne) to an ICs Mark of Chaos (Nurgle) and finding a difference.

Berzerkers have zero different marks from Abbadon. They have 1 mark that is different to Abbadons powerfist, but that comparisson is NOT the rule, and using that as a rule requires changing the wording of the said rule.

Cite one time I've compared to a power fist.
I haven't changed the rule whatsoever. I'm comparing the units Mark to the ICs Mark. You pretending I'm comparing it to irrelevant wargear is insulting and just plain wrong.

The units Mark is different from 3 of Abby's Marks.

Again you changed the rule... Is the unit's mark different from abbadon? Or is it only different from some specific thing on abbadon that is not part of what the rule is asking.

How is Abby's Mark of Nurgle different not part of a Mark of Chaos which is what the rule requires to be compared?

Your assertion is that you get to pick which Marks to compare. Please cite the permission.

DogofWar, I like the effort you put in there. However I found fault with premise 1 which then ruins everything else you built.

1) If the IC has a different fruit than the unit, they may not join (P)

The IC in fact can not join a unit with a different fruit. You reversed this to read that a unit can not be joind by an IC with a different fruit. Right in your example of the rule in 1) you changed who needs to be different in order to not join.

See how that skewed all your following logic?

I'm comparing a units Mark of Chaos (Khorne) to an ICs Mark of Chaos (Nurgle) and finding a difference.

Rigeld2, you are comparing specific marks and finding a difference between them. That is not what the rule asks you to do. The first part of the rule in question is "An independent character with a mark of chaos..." This tells you who the rule applies to. Abbadon is an independent character with a mark of chaos, so the rule applies to him. Next "...may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos."

So Abbadon "may not join a unit with a different mark of chaos."

What are the marks of Chaos, and are there any marks of chaos different than the ones Abbadon has?

Yes; he has themarkof nurgle, and that is different to the units mark of khorne

The unit has a different mark of chaos to abaddon, rule applies. Again, why are you picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks? Actually answer that question.

He actually answered that question a couple times.

Going back and reading it again I have to agree with him. You're comparing to see if the marked IC and the marked unit have a matching mark. The IC has all four marks and the unit has one of those marks. The unit doesn't have a different mark compared to the IC.

Even if the unit had all four marks, by your logic it still wouldn't work. Since the unit's mark of nurgle would always be different from the IC's mark of khorne. You're comparing each mark to every other mark.

DevianID wrote:
What are the marks of Chaos, and are there any marks of chaos different than the ones Abbadon has?

That's absolutely not what the rule is asking.
The rule is asking you to compare the Marks of the IC and the unit. If they are different, the IC cannot join.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
He actually answered that question a couple times.

Going back and reading it again I have to agree with him. You're comparing to see if the marked IC and the marked unit have a matching mark. The IC has all four marks and the unit has one of those marks. The unit doesn't have a different mark compared to the IC.

Even if the unit had all four marks, by your logic it still wouldn't work. Since the unit's mark of nurgle would always be different from the IC's mark of khorne. You're comparing each mark to every other mark.

Correct. Which is what the rule is asking you to do.

And a better analogy would be if the IC had a power sword and power axe and couldn't join a unit with a different power weapon. So you'd still be able to join a unit with an axe or sword.

Wait, how did I mess up what I wrote on page 5 DevianID? You were incorrect in saying I messed up Kharn. So, how is what I wrote wrong? Note I want an actually explanation, not the usual "Milk, Bread, Honey" analogy you give... And certainly not a straight "WRONG!"

Kharn want to join some bezerkers. They have a mark of Khorne. He has a mark of khorne. The unit has the same mark as him. He can join them.

Lucius wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of slaanesh. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Typhus wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of nurgle. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Ahriman wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of tzeentch. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Abaddon wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of khorne. He also has the mark of Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch. The unit has a different mark to Abaddon's mark of slaanesh, nurgle and tzeentch, but the same as his mark of khorne. 3/4 marks are different.. He cannot join them.

Lucius wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of slaanesh. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Typhus wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of nurgle. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Ahriman wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of tzeentch. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Abbadon counts as having every Mark. The examples you've given above are correct unto themselves but have no correlation to Abbadon for the very reason I've given.

BUT the main thing is that marks that are the same don't matter, only different marks. The marked unit will always be different to Abaddon, because their mark is different to 3 of his. 3/4 different ~= 0 different

All that really matters is if they have the same mark... The other marks have no bearing.

No, the rule refers to a different mark. Marks that are the same don't matter at all. As long as 1 mark is different, the unit and character can't join.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All that really matters is if they have the same mark... The other marks have no bearing.

But the Zerkers do not have the same mark as Abby.

the Zerkers have MoK, Abby has MoT, is that the same or different?

If you are only comparing the unit's MoK to Abby's MoK then "why are you picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks?" (Quote from Nos earlier in this thread).

"the Zerkers have MoN, Abby has MoT, is that the same or different?"

Correction - Berserkers have MoK not MoN.

either way... same outcome

 Dozer Blades wrote:
"the Zerkers have MoN, Abby has MoT, is that the same or different?"

Correction - Berserkers have MoK not MoN.

Right MoK not MoN fixed the typo in my post.

Point still stands though.

The Zerkers have MoK, Abby has MoT, is that the same or different?

Why are you picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks?

Can I get an answer to these two questions please.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All that really matters is if they have the same mark... The other marks have no bearing.

Citation required. Why are you only co paring one mark?

DevianID wrote:
DogofWar, I like the effort you put in there. However I found fault with premise 1 which then ruins everything else you built.

1) If the IC has a different fruit than the unit, they may not join (P)

The IC in fact can not join a unit with a different fruit. You reversed this to read that a unit can not be joind by an IC with a different fruit. Right in your example of the rule in 1) you changed who needs to be different in order to not join.

See how that skewed all your following logic?

Whoops, you're right about the order. But that's not a big issue and can be easily fixed.

Assume this edited version then:

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

1) If the IC has a fruit, they may not join a unit with a different fruit (P)
2) The IC has an apple (A)
3) The IC has a banana (A)
4) The IC has a pear (A)
5) The IC has an orange (A)
6) The Unit has an apple (A)
7) Apples are different than bananas (A)
8) Apples are fruits (A)
9) Bananas are fruits (A)
10) The IC has a fruit, which is a banana (3, 9)
11) The Unit has a fruit, which is an apple (6, 8)
12) The Unit has a different fruit than the IC (7, 10, 11)
13) The IC may not join the unit (1, 12)

EDIT - Last line was numbered incorrectly. My apologies.

10) the ic has a fruit which INCLUDES bananas and apples.

His fruit is not a banana; because his fruit is also an apple.

In 10 where you say his fruit is a banana you change the generic fruit into bananna, meaning all the ICs fruit is bananas. That colors the conclusions drawn below.

Even changing that doesn't change the overall conclusion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes; he has themarkof nurgle, and that is different to the units mark of khorne

The unit has a different mark of chaos to abaddon, rule applies. Again, why are you picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks? Actually answer that question.

I am not picking any one mark. You are with nurgle.

You are saying that abbadon, who has all the marks, finds a different mark from the marks he has in berserkers. I am saying that is impossible, there is no different mark from the 4 that abbadon has.

Rigeld, changing 10) like that does change the conclusion. If I have something already, the same thing I already have is not a different thing.

If abbadon has apples and bananas and wants something different, are you saying that he should have another apple?

He doesn't have one mark that is everything. He has all 4 marks individually. So you cannot consider them as a whole.
The unit checks its Mark vs the IC and looks for a difference. Khorne is not the same as Nurgle - there's a difference.

The problem with that is that you are having the unit look for a different mark than the IC in your sentence above rigeld.

It is the other way around though. The ic is checking the unit for a different mark.

DevianID wrote:
The problem with that is that you are having the unit look for a different mark than the IC in your sentence above rigeld.

It is the other way around though. The ic is checking the unit for a different mark.

Exactly. Which Abaddon does, and finds a Mark that differs in three instances regardless of the marked Unit he is trying to join (since there are no multiple-marked units in the codex aside from Abby).

There isn't a single check that occurs, which is I think where we are getting stuck. There are 4 separate checks for each Mark to compare difference.

Maybe a flowchart form will make more sense. I think Rigeld may have also illustrated this before:

Start
Is the Unit Marked? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon MAY join.

(Abaddon has a MoN)
Does the Unit have a MoN? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon may not join.

(Abaddon has a MoK)
Does the Unit have a MoK? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon may not join.

(Abaddon has a MoS)
Does the Unit have a MoS? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon may not join.

(Abaddon has a MoT)
Does the Unit have a MoT? If yes, continue. If not, Abaddon may not join.

Abaddon MAY join.

End

Everything must be satisfied, not simply one section. That's I think where the major disconnect is occurring.

DoW

DevianID wrote:
The problem with that is that you are having the unit look for a different mark than the IC in your sentence above rigeld.

It is the other way around though. The ic is checking the unit for a different mark.

And the IC Checks to see if the unit has the same mark and the IC sees a MoK.

He then looks at his own mark and sees MoCA, this make gives him these marks: MoK, MoN, MoT, MoS. 4 marks? this is madness!

well 1 is the same, but 3 are in fact different, he may not join that unit, as the unit has MoK and he has MoN, MoT, MoS, and MoK.

The unit has a different mark than the IC when you look at all of the IC's marks, and do not single any one of them out.

Dogofwar, your previous logic steps were better logically until step 10. That is where you made a mistake. Abbadon has an apple and banana. Abbadon asks for something different. You hand abbadon another apple. An apple is not different from what abbadon has already.

To rigeld (edit:meant deathreaper sorry) , name the mark that berserkers have that is different from the marks abbadon has. Name only the mark that berserkers have that is different, as I already know the marks abbadon has already.

Abbadon has an apple and banana. Abbadon asks for something different. You hand abbadon another apple. An apple is not different from what abbadon has already.

Abaddon asks if your fruit differs from his fruit. You have just an apple. He's got a banana, a kiwi, and a kumquat, in addition to his apple. Three of those are different from your apple.

Mannahin, your statement tells me that an apple is different from a banana. That is not important as you changed what is compared.

I have the mark of khorne and the mark of nurgle. I want a different mark. What marks are different from the 2 I already have.