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Ok, this is obviously not HYWPI/RAI, but the other Abbadon thread got me thinking:

Mark of Chaos Ascendant says Abaddon "also has all four Marks of Chaos." The rules for Marks state that "When a Mark of Chaos is listed in a unit's special rules, its effects will have already been taken into account in its profile, where applicable." However, Abaddon doesn't have the a "Mark of Chaos" listed in his special rules, he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which Pg. 30 and Pg. 91 imply is not a "Mark of Chaos". Thus, Abaddon has no Mark of Chaos listed under his special rules, so the bonuses are not included in his profile. Therefore, Abaddon is T6, I7.

Thoughts?

Page 30:

When a Mark of Chaos is listed in a unit's special rules, its effects will already have been taken into account in its profile, where applicable.

Page 57:

Mark of Chaos Ascendant: If Abaddon is included in your primary detachment, he must be the Warlord. He also has all four Marks of Chaos. Note that, due to the Mark of Tzeentch the invulnerable save provided by Abaddon's Terminator armour is increased to 4+.

By strict RAW Mark of Chaos Ascendant is simply a special rule that states Abaddon has all four marks of Chaos, not that he has a new special mark which is somehow not included on his profile. Page 30 in no way contradicts this, and page 91 tells you to refer to page 57 where it will clarify this for you.

Edit: To further reinforce this the marks of chaos are indeed all listed in his 'special rules' as it comes under that section on page 57.

He has all four Marks. Yes. But they are not listed under his special rules, as they are for all other squads/people that come with a Mark of Chaos. What he has listed is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is not a "Mark of Chaos". While the Marks of Chaos are referenced under his special rules, they are not "listed" there.

kaisshau wrote:
He has all four Marks. Yes. But they are not listed under his special rules, as they are for all other squads/people that come with a Mark of Chaos. What he has listed is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is not a "Mark of Chaos". While the Marks of Chaos are referenced under his special rules, they are not "listed" there.

"He also has all four Marks of Chaos" PG57 C:CSM
We know that if a model has a mark, it will be shown in their statline.
So abby has the mark's as stated, and they're already included in his profile.

The rule doesn't say "If a model has a Mark of Chaos", the rule says "When a Mark of Chaos is listed in a unit's special rules". The only thing listed in the special rules of Abaddon is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is not a "Mark of Chaos". Thus, the Mark of Nurgle is not listed, so it is not included. Similarly with the Mark of Slaanesh. The question to be asked regarding marks is not "Does he have it?" But "Is it listed in his special rules?".

the Mark of Chaos Ascendant tells us he has all 4 marks.

Therefore all 4 marks are included within his profile.

kaisshau wrote:
The rule doesn't say "If a model has a Mark of Chaos", the rule says "When a Mark of Chaos is listed in a unit's special rules". The only thing listed in the special rules of Abaddon is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is not a "Mark of Chaos". Thus, the Mark of Nurgle is not listed, so it is not included. Similarly with the Mark of Slaanesh. The question to be asked regarding marks is not "Does he have it?" But "Is it listed in his special rules?".

Unfortunately he does, it even go's as far to say for MoT that his Invul save is made better.

He does what? The rule does not care what he does or doesn't have. It matters what is "listed in his special rules"/ Period. Full stop. Are the Marks listed in his special rules?

And how does the rule further explaining that he does actually benefit from the Marks prove that they are intrinsically included? Especially for something that is not part of his profile? Pg. 3 of the BRB lists the profile as the WS/BS/S/etc, which does not include an invulnerable save.

kaisshau wrote:
He does what? The rule does not care what he does or doesn't have. It matters what is "listed in his special rules"/ Period. Full stop. Are the Marks listed in his special rules?\

Yes they are...

Abaddon's special rules are:
• Champion of Chaos
• Eternal Warrior
• Fearless
• Independent Character
• Mark of Chaos Ascendant
• Veterans of the Long War

Which one of those is a "Mark of Chaos"? Where is the "Mark of Nurgle" listed? And do not say "It's included in the Mark of Chaos Ascendant." The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not a "Mark of Chaos". It tells us he has them, and further explains that exactly how he benefits from one of them. But it is not "listing them in his special rules".

I'm baffled that you're even trying to argue this past my original post.

Abaddon's special rules include the rule Mark of Chaos Ascendant, this rule bestows upon him all four marks of chaos, therefore in Abaddon's Special Rules he has Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Slaanesh, Mark of Khorne and Mark of Tzeentch.

I don't see how this is even an issue for you, as has been previously mentioned it even points out the invulnerable save change incase people miss it as invulnerables still don't show up on profiles for some silly reason, it really isn't a debatable rule.

Because while Abaddon has all four Marks of Chaos, there are no Marks of Chaos listed in his special rules. The rule doesn't ask if he has them. It asks if they are listed. What is listed? The Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Is that a Mark of Chaos? No. Is there anything else listed that could be a Mark of Chaos? No. Therefore, while Abaddon has all four Marks of Chaos, none are listed in his special rules. Therefore, his Marks do not fall under the sentence on Pg. 30.

I'm baffled you keep confusing the word has with is listed in.

kaisshau wrote:
Abaddon's special rules are:
• Champion of Chaos
• Eternal Warrior
• Fearless
• Independent Character
• Mark of Chaos Ascendant
• Veterans of the Long War

Which one of those is a "Mark of Chaos"? Where is the "Mark of Nurgle" listed? And do not say "It's included in the Mark of Chaos Ascendant." The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not a "Mark of Chaos". It tells us he has them, and further explains that exactly how he benefits from one of them. But it is not "listing them in his special rules".

This one:
• Mark of Chaos Ascendant

"He also has all four Marks of Chaos" PG57 C:CSM

He has Mark of nurgle as per P. 57 C: CSM.

Keep trying to Easter egg, but it is not working.

Mark of Chaos Ascendant is within the section defined as special rules yes?

Within the rule mark of Chaos Ascendant are included all four marks of Chaos yes?

Therefore within Abaddon's special rules there are listed all four marks of chaos, just because a rule happens to be part of another rule does not prevent it from being a rule within it's own right.

You surely aren't trying to claim that they should have to type out every single mark individually within the rule, as it's perfectly clear that there are only four marks of chaos and Abaddon 'has all four Marks of Chaos'. They even capitalised the phrase 'Marks of Chaos' to make it abundantly clear they are the marks referred to in the rules. Listed in and has are the exact same thing in this use of English, listed in does not always refer to a literal list of items.

Edit: Actually hell they're even 'listed in' his rules if you want to go by that definition seeing as Mark of Chaos Ascendant is listed in his Special Rules and includes within it the individual Marks of Chaos, and as has been mentioned previously Special Rules are able to reference or include other rules.

don't feed the troll...

I'll put this the easy way to the OP. You seem to be hung up on the illusion that there are only four marks of chaos. Nothing in the book limits it to only those four marks exist. While a unit cannot take "Mark of Chaos Ascendent" that doesn't mean that it's not a 5th mark of chaos.

So if the Mark of Chaos Ascendent is a mark of chaos (there is no statement telling us it is not a mark), it is included in Abaddon's because we aren't told otherwise.

By my understanding the mark of chaos ascendant is a mark of chaos as it includes the words "mark", "of" and "chaos" in its name.

Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:Mark of Chaos Ascendant is within the section defined as special rules yes?

Within the rule mark of Chaos Ascendant are included all four marks of Chaos yes?

Therefore within Abaddon's special rules there are listed all four marks of chaos, just because a rule happens to be part of another rule does not prevent it from being a rule within it's own right.

You surely aren't trying to claim that they should have to type out every single mark individually within the rule, as it's perfectly clear that there are only four marks of chaos and Abaddon 'has all four Marks of Chaos'. They even capitalised the phrase 'Marks of Chaos' to make it abundantly clear they are the marks referred to in the rules. Listed in and has are the exact same thing in this use of English, listed in does not always refer to a literal list of items.

Edit: Actually hell they're even 'listed in' his rules if you want to go by that definition seeing as Mark of Chaos Ascendant is listed in his Special Rules and includes within it the individual Marks of Chaos, and as has been mentioned previously Special Rules are able to reference or include other rules.

But listing a special rule is different from someone having it. Khorne Bezerkers have Rage, because they have the Mark of Khorne. But Rage is not listed anywhere in their profile. However, Khorne Bezerkers have Furious Charge because it is listed in their profile. Having a rule conferred because of some other rule is not the same as having that rule listed. Note, the wording says he "Also has" all four marks. Yes, they did specifically mention how him having the Mark of Tzeentch worked. However, if he somehow lost the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, he would lose all his "Marks of Chaos". You can have special rules that are not listed. For example, if a unit had a piece of wargear that confers Fear, they would then have Fear USR. But Fear would not be listed on their profile.

Lone Dragoon wrote:I'll put this the easy way to the OP. You seem to be hung up on the illusion that there are only four marks of chaos. Nothing in the book limits it to only those four marks exist. While a unit cannot take "Mark of Chaos Ascendent" that doesn't mean that it's not a 5th mark of chaos.

So if the Mark of Chaos Ascendent is a mark of chaos (there is no statement telling us it is not a mark), it is included in Abaddon's because we aren't told otherwise.

edbradders wrote:By my understanding the mark of chaos ascendant is a mark of chaos as it includes the words "mark", "of" and "chaos" in its name.

Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not a "Mark of Chaos". Why? Pg. 57, in Abaddon's rules "He also has all four Marks of Chaos." There are only four "Marks of Chaos". Mark of Khorne, Mark of Slaanesh, Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Tzeentch - The only four "Marks of Chaos".

edbradders wrote:By my understanding the mark of chaos ascendant is a mark of chaos as it includes the words "mark", "of" and "chaos" in its name.

This. I'm pretty sure you are trying to prove that this case is one of those odd rules issues (such as with vehicles and invulnerable saves) where the intent is obvious but the rules don't support it. This is not one of those times, as the mark of chaos ascendant is quite clearly a mark of chaos...

kaisshau wrote:
But listing a special rule is different from someone having it. Khorne Bezerkers have Rage, because they have the Mark of Khorne. But Rage is not listed anywhere in their profile. However, Khorne Bezerkers have Furious Charge because it is listed in their profile. Having a rule conferred because of some other rule is not the same as having that rule listed. Note, the wording says he "Also has" all four marks. Yes, they did specifically mention how him having the Mark of Tzeentch worked. However, if he somehow lost the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, he would lose all his "Marks of Chaos". You can have special rules that are not listed. For example, if a unit had a piece of wargear that confers Fear, they would then have Fear USR. But Fear would not be listed on their profile.

Khorne Bezerkers have Rage because they have Mark of Khorne? Does Abaddon have Rage? Strict RAW says that the Mark of Chaos Ascendant means that Abaddon "has all four Marks of Chaos." Which requires us to go look at the "Marks of Chaos" what are listed under that heading?
Mark of Khorne, Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Slaanesh, and Mark of Tzeentch.

So does Abaddon have Rage? It's not listed in his profile, but he does have the Mark of Khorne which isn't listed except under the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, The Mark of Chaos Ascendant grants the Mark of Khorne which in turn grants Rage.

So going off of that same ruling he has the marks for Nurgle and Slaanesh. Listed under a rule that is listed under his special rules. Now looking at the section that says that Marks listed under Special Rules are already taken into account in the profile, we see that his 4++ save is taken into account in his profile since they make explicit mention of the Invulnerable Save changes (because Invuln saves aren't recorded in the profile). His profile lists him as T5 and I6. Again, looking back to what it says about special rules and bonuses in the profile being added in, we see that we have a special rule (The Mark of Chaos Ascendant) that gives Abaddon all 4 Marks of Chaos, granted their powers. It doesn't have to list it out because the Special Rule is already Listed, it's called the Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

or in simple terms...

Mark of Chaos Ascendant does the following:
Must be the Warlord in Primary Detachment
Has All 4 Marks of Chaos which posits the question, what are the 4 Marks of Chaos?
Mark of Nurgle: Grants +1 Toughness
Mark of Khorne: Grants Rage and Counter-Attack (or w/e the second ability is)
Mark of Slaanesh: Grants +1 Initiative
Mark of Tzeentch: Grants +1 to Invulnerable Saves.
- Make note that his Invulnerable Save increases to 4++ because Abaddon is wearing Terminator Armor.


There not that hard to understand.


Also: I believe he would lost his Mark of Chaos Ascendant if he turned into a Daemon Prince or Spawn, but I'm not entirely sure as I haven't had that happen yet.

 Alfndrate wrote:

So does Abaddon have Rage? It's not listed in his profile, but he does have the Mark of Khorne which isn't listed except under the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, The Mark of Chaos Ascendant grants the Mark of Khorne which in turn grants Rage.

This is the exact point. He would have Rage, but Rage is not listed in his special rules. The rule doesn't ask if he has a Mark, but whether or not that Mark is listed.

Strictly RAW, Abaddon has no "Marks of Chaos" listed in his profile. If I take a Lord and purchase a Mark of Nurgle, the Lord now has a Mark of Nurgle, but there is not a Mark of Nurgle listed in his special rules.

Also, he would lose the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, but become a Daemon/Spawn of all four Gods.

kaisshau wrote:
Strictly RAW, Abaddon has no "Marks of Chaos" listed in his profile.

What?

kaisshau wrote:
Pg. 57, in Abaddon's rules "He also has all four Marks of Chaos."

By virtue of MoCA he has all four Marks of Chaos, and when a unit in the C: CSM has any Marks of Chaos they are listed in the profile.

Yes, he has all four. But there are none listed. If I take a Lord and purchase a Mark of Nurgle, the Lord now has a Mark of Nurgle, but there is not a Mark of Nurgle listed in his special rules.

If he has them they must be listed in his special rules, by virtue of the MoCA, which is listed in the special rules therefore all of the MoCA's effects are listed in the special rules.

Bezerkers don't have rage in their list of rules, woe betide us all, GW tried to save on ink!!!!!!! The game is broken!!!!!
Oh no, sorry the mark tells you what it does.

kaisshau wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

So does Abaddon have Rage? It's not listed in his profile, but he does have the Mark of Khorne which isn't listed except under the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, The Mark of Chaos Ascendant grants the Mark of Khorne which in turn grants Rage.

This is the exact point. He would have Rage, but Rage is not listed in his special rules. The rule doesn't ask if he has a Mark, but whether or not that Mark is listed.

Strictly RAW, Abaddon has no "Marks of Chaos" listed in his profile. If I take a Lord and purchase a Mark of Nurgle, the Lord now has a Mark of Nurgle, but there is not a Mark of Nurgle listed in his special rules.

Also, he would lose the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, but become a Daemon/Spawn of all four Gods.

By your interpretation of this, the Khorne Beserkers don't have Rage because it's not listed in their profile, yet they have the Mark of Khorne. Abaddon has the MoCA which has all four of the marks. You're arguing that the phrase "has all four Marks of Chaos" is not the same as listing them. Abaddon's profile reads the exact same as Typhus (who has the Mark of Nurgle) and Lucius (who has the Mark of Slaanesh). His T and I are bumped up the same as those two special characters.

As to your Lord with a Mark of Nurgle, he purchased it. You cannot have a special character with options. Kharn has the Mark of Khorn, Typhus and Lucius are above, and Ahriman has the Mark of Tzeentch. Each one of cannot have a different mark, so all bonuses are added into their profile, just as Abby's bonuses are.

Also if by "Strict RAW, Abaddon has no "Marks of Chaos" listed in his profile how does he have a 4+ Invuln save?

The special rule that is listed in his profile is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. What does that rule give Abaddon possession of? It gives him sole right to being the Warlord in a Primary Detachment and it gives him all four Marks of Chaos. So now you have a list of the marks. The Marks have been shortened because this is a book with limited physical space, did you want to pay an extra 10 bucks so they could give Abby an extra half page so you knew that "Has all four Marks of Chaos" is equal to "Has the Marks of Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch"?

kaisshau wrote:
Yes, he has all four. But there are none listed. If I take a Lord and purchase a Mark of Nurgle, the Lord now has a Mark of Nurgle, but there is not a Mark of Nurgle listed in his special rules.

I think you have argued your point ad nauseum and are still losing. Congratulations on thinking you found a loophole! Now try using it in a game...

Because you can have something which is not listed. Which is why I mentioned the Bezerkers. They have Rage, but Rage is not listed in their special rules. If you somehow removed the only the Mark of Khorne, they would keep Furious Charge, but would no longer have Rage. If Rage was listed in their special rules, they would always have it, even if you removed the Mark of Khorne. The argument you are making is that by having a special rule, it automatically becomes listed in your special rules. Where is the RAW basis for this?

DeathReaper:
Where is the RAW support for the statement that since he "has them they must be listed in his special rules"? The Mark of Chaos Ascendant doesn't say it "includes" all four Marks of Chaos, it says he "also has" all four."Also has" does not equal listed, included, part of, etc. It means "In addition to". Where is the equivalency in the Chaos codex that having a Mark of Chaos means it must be listed? It is clearly possible to have a special rule (such as Rage), though it is not listed, because it is conferred by something else (such as a Mark of Khorne).

Thyphus' special rules, btw, specifically list the Mark of Nurgle:
Champion of Chaos,
Fearless,
Feel No Pain,
Independent Character,
Mark of Nurgle


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I think you have argued your point ad nauseum and are still losing. Congratulations on thinking you found a loophole! Now try using it in a game...

I stated at the beginning - This is not meant for RAI or HYWPI. It's strictly RAW.

Are Marks special rules?

Does Abby have all 4 marks?

You're asking us where the marks of chaos are listed. They're listed under Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which we've stated multiple times...