Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So Bezerkers have Rage and Counterattack listed on their profiles then?

I'm trying to remember the logical property described below:

If A = B and B = C, then A = C.

Can't remember the name.

This is a good example of this property in action.

Given:

Abaddon has the listed Special Rule "Mark of Chaos Ascendant."

Given:

Mark of Chaos Ascendant is equivalent to the Marks of Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaneesh, and Nurgle.

Therefore:

Abaddon has the listed Special Rules for those four marks.

This is the same type of reasoning. You do not need to have A = C directly in front of you to have logically proven that fact if you already know that A = B and B = C.

The problem is, Mark of Chaos Ascendant != the four Marks of Chaos. It confers them onto him, but it is not the same thing.

kaisshau wrote:
The problem is, Mark of Chaos Ascendant != the four Marks of Chaos. It confers them onto him, but it is not the same thing.

If it confers the marks on him, doesn't that confer their bonuses to?

like I said, try this in a game sometime, especially playing a cult marine army. your argument doesn't work. it would be much the same if you said my Lysander-led troops don't get Stubborn, they just get Combat Tactics, because Stubborn is not listed. or that Black Templars troops can't use grenades, even if they are paid for, because they are not under their profiles.

admit it: /thread.

kaisshau wrote:
The problem is, Mark of Chaos Ascendant != the four Marks of Chaos. It confers them onto him, but it is not the same thing.

. . . .

This is really the crux of your argument?

Mark of Chaos Ascendant confers the four Marks of Chaos onto Abby.

Therefore Abby has the four Marks of Chaos, and the bonuses are already listed in his profile.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
like I said, try this in a game sometime, especially playing a cult marine army. your argument doesn't work. it would be much the same if you said my Lysander-led troops don't get Stubborn, they just get Combat Tactics, because Stubborn is not listed. or that Black Templars troops can't use grenades, even if they are paid for, because they are not under their profiles.

admit it: /thread.

Actually, that's the exact opposite of what I am saying. I am saying it is possible to have special rules which are not listed. The counter-argument is claiming that to have a special rule, it must be listed or, once you have a special rule, it is automatically listed. I have said all along - Abbadon has all four Marks. Abbadon has no Marks listed. In the same way that Khorne Bezerkers have Rage, but Rage is not listed.

The crux of my argument is that "has" != "listed".

What was the OP original question? Im thinking does his profile stats already have the toughness, initiative buff or not?

Lungpickle wrote:
What was the OP original question? Im thinking does his profile stats already have the toughness, initiative buff or not?

The OP's argument is that by strict RAW Abaddon gets the 4 marks of chaos and they add to his current profile listed in the codex. So his mark of chaos ascendant would grant the Mark of Tzeentch (giving him a 4++ invuln), Mark of Khorne (Rage and Counter Attack), and he would get bumped up to T6 and I7 because of the Marks of Nurgle and Slaanesh.

Everyone else is telling him he's wrong because they're already included in the profile.

OP: My question: If the statline said,

WS BS S T W I A Sa InSa (for invulnerable save)
7 4 5 5 4 6 5 2+ 4++

would we be having this argument?

This thread keeps going because he makes the same argument that even though the codex says the marks are included, they're not specifically listed, so they aren't there...

Which it does.

It is very simple, Abaddon's mark says he has all the marks of the 4 chaos gods. The marks of the gods give a range of benefits.
A gives b-e and b-e give you all these benefist w-z. Hence A gives you w-z.
So the mark of chaos ascendant gives you all the buffs and since the marks are listed abaddon doesn't get the extra additional initiative and toughness boost.

Solo, that statement makes no sense whatsoever. "even though the codex says the marks are included, they're not specifically listed, so they aren't there... Which it does." Whuh?

Alfndrate:
If all the rest stayed exactly the same, then probably not, as that would lend support to the idea that the Marks are already included in his profile. We also wouldn't be having this discussion if the rules said "He also has all four Marks of Chaos (included in his profile)." However, neither of these are what the rules actually say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is very simple, Abaddon's mark says he has all the marks of the 4 chaos gods. The marks of the gods give a range of benefits.
A gives b-e and b-e give you all these benefist w-z. Hence A gives you w-z.
So the mark of chaos ascendant gives you all the buffs and since the marks are listed abaddon doesn't get the extra additional initiative and toughness boost.

The logic here is: If A(MoCA), then B(MoN/MoS). If B, then C(+1T/I). If A, therefore C. However, this does not mean that A = B. The rule does not state "If a unit has a Mark of Chaos, its effects will have already been taken into account in its profile". The rule asks if the Mark is listed. Abaddon has the MoCA listed, which confers the benefits, but it does not mean that the MoN/MoS are listed.

Okay, so we agree that the Mark of Chas Ascendant is listed right?

Good

The bonuses that the MoCA gets included into the profile can't be taken into account until you know exactly which Marks the Mark of Chaos Ascendant has.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Okay, so we agree that the Mark of Chas Ascendant is listed right?

Good

The bonuses that the MoCA gets included into the profile can't be taken into account until you know exactly which Marks the Mark of Chaos Ascendant has.

The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not a Mark of Chaos, and therefore does not fall under the sentence: "When a Mark of Chaos is listed in a unit's special rules, its effects will have already been taken into account in its profile, where applicable."

kaisshau wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Okay, so we agree that the Mark of Chas Ascendant is listed right?

Good

The bonuses that the MoCA gets included into the profile can't be taken into account until you know exactly which Marks the Mark of Chaos Ascendant has.

The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not a Mark of Chaos, and therefore does not fall under the sentence: "When a Mark of Chaos is listed in a unit's special rules, its effects will have already been taken into account in its profile, where applicable."

Interesting choice of wording... I'm going to another thread with this quote, brb...

kaisshau wrote:

The rule asks if the Mark is listed. Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent listed, which confers the benefits, but it does not mean that the MoN/MoS are listed.

A mark is listed.

The list of Abaddon's special rules is as follows:
• Champion of Chaos
• Eternal Warrior
• Fearless
• Independent Character
• Mark of Chaos Ascendant
• Veterans of the Long War

The "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" is not a Mark of Chaos, as needed for the rules on Pg. 30. However, it does confer further special rules, in the way of conferring onto Abaddon all four Marks.

The list of Kharn's special rules is as follows:
• The Betrayer
• Blessing of the Blood God
• Champion of Chaos
• Fearless
• Furious Charge
• lndependent Character
• Mark of Khone
• Veterans of the Long War

The "Mark of Khorne" is a Mark of Chaos. If it conferred a statline benefit, it would be included. However, like the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, it also confers further special rules, namely Rage and Counter-Attack. Are these special rules "listed in his special rules"? If I had a rule that said "Models with the Rage USR listed in their special rules receive +5 Attacks on the charge, instead of +2," would Kharn benefit?

It would be awesome if he was I7 T6 but I don't think that's the case. Hopefully GW will address this as well as the argument in the other thread.

So why is it that my Mark of Tzeentch is included to my armor save but my Mark of Nurgle and Mark of Slaanesh are not? (allowing me to bump his T and I t 6/7 respectively)

kaisshau wrote:
The "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" is not a Mark of Chaos, as needed for the rules on Pg. 30. However, it does confer further special rules, in the way of conferring onto Abaddon all four Marks.

In this case, Abby has all 4 marks listed, as the "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" is basically just another way of listing all 4 marks separately.

Unless you are using a strange non-English definition for "confer"

 Alfndrate wrote:
So why is it that my Mark of Tzeentch is included to my armor save but my Mark of Nurgle and Mark of Slaanesh are not? (allowing me to bump his T and I t 6/7 respectively)

Can you say for certain they are not already included in his profile?

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
So why is it that my Mark of Tzeentch is included to my armor save but my Mark of Nurgle and Mark of Slaanesh are not? (allowing me to bump his T and I t 6/7 respectively)

Can you say for certain they are not already included in his profile?

I can say for certain that they are included in his profile because his Mark of Chaos Ascendant says he has all 4 Marks of Chaos. The Codex says that a model with a Mark of Chaos listed has it's bonuses included in the profile. I have proof that they're already adding the bonuses to the profile of the entire model (not just the statline) because it specifically tells me that his Mark of Tzeentch is included to make his Invulnerable Save 4+. And I don't need it to list Rage and Counter Attack under Special Rules because the MoCA says he has the Mark of Khorne which grants him those bonuses.

 Alfndrate wrote:
You're asking us where the marks of chaos are listed. They're listed under Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which we've stated multiple times...

Exactly! Sometimes knowledge is closed under deduction haters. If p [failbaddon has the mark of the acendent] then q [he has all the marks] & if q [he has all the marks] then are [he benefits from the 4 marks] therefore if p [abby has his fancy mark] then are [he benefits from all four marks]. Basic logic shows that by the marks being entailed in whay is written they are as such represented in his list of special rules.

 Alfndrate wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
The problem is, Mark of Chaos Ascendant != the four Marks of Chaos. It confers them onto him, but it is not the same thing.

If it confers the marks on him, doesn't that confer their bonuses to?

It does and is the same thing for all practical purposes.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
The problem is, Mark of Chaos Ascendant != the four Marks of Chaos. It confers them onto him, but it is not the same thing.

If it confers the marks on him, doesn't that confer their bonuses to?

It does and is the same thing for all practical purposes.

That's what I've been saying... So his T6 and I7 are impossible because they've already taken the marks into account in his profile.

@kaisshau

The problem is, you can't list "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" + Mark of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh because that would mean he has them twice (although the respective specific Marks are listed once).
You could write "Mark of Chaos Ascendant (Mark of Khorne... )"

But contextual reading is also necessary for RAW so I think we can all agree that Mark of Chaos Ascendant = Mark of Khorne, Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Tzeentch, Mark of Slaanesh and therefore he has them listed.

Honestly this is a fun one.

You could argue this either way, though the way the OP want's to RAW argue it is a very WAAC and "Doesn't want friends" type of deal.

Truth be told GW's codexes aren't perfect.

Isn't a Plague Marine listed as T5 in its stats? Same thing for a Noise Marine - isn't it listed as I5? Seems to if a unit has a mark then it's effect(s) are listed in the unit's stats.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Isn't a Plague Marine listed as T5 in its stats? Same thing for a Noise Marine - isn't it listed as I5? Seems to if a unit has a mark then it's effect(s) are listed in the unit's stats.

That and the rules tell us that's how it is.