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I was using Vulcan as an example. I have no real plans to build a Salamanders force. I think I have officially narrowed it down to being some version of Codex: Space Marine. The idea I have running through my mind right now, is to field as many Tactical Squads as possible, combat squadded. Split them down, and dig those 5 man teams into terrain for a 2+ cover save, and keep flamer and heavy bolters in the front towards the main infantry. Use multi-melta and rocket launchers to the middle and sides to pulverize enemy armor trying to outflank. Keep a dreadnought in the back outfitted with lascannons and whatever else I can use for anti-air use, along with an Aegis Defense Line with a few extra Tactical Marines and Devestator Marines manning the quad gun and using extreme range weapons to keep the enemy advancing through as much fire before the forward flamers charge what remains of the infantry to mop them up.

Remember when using combat squads with tactical squads to preferably put the heavy weapon in the other part and the sepcial weapon and sergeant in the other. Especially if you have a flamer and a close combat oriented sergeant.

Is that to split up the threat so that they don't pour all their fire into one squad?

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Is that to split up the threat so that they don't pour all their fire into one squad?

It's to keep your heavy weapon stationary and in cover while your special weapon + sergeant get close to the opponent / objectives.

Note that this doesn't apply in all cases. For instance, one thing you can do is have a las/plas or plas/MM squad where the las and the plas go together (perhaps in a Rhino, perhaps not) and the Sergeant and five normal models fire a quad-gun.

Generally speaking though, the "standard" Combat Squads configuration is Sergeant + special weapon + 3 bolters/heavy weapon + 4 bolters.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I know you don't like tanks, but a land raider full of 8 assault terminators will put the fear of the emperor into any opponent, and draw fire from most of your other units.

I don't actually think that you'll find this correct. A landraider will probably not draw anything less powerful than a las cannon, which are a waste to fire at even space marine squads anyway. The things that space marine players worry about (plasma, high volumes of fire) will never be fired at land raiders, therefore, you'll still have those things coming at the rest of your army.

I don't like 1 trick guns like the combi weapons, but would it be wise to have scattered combi weapons in the squads, alongside the heavy and special weapons, or are combi weapons special weapons?

Normally you get Combi weapons only on sergeants and they don't take up your special weapon slot in your tac squads (only upgrading your sergeants Bolter).

Sternguard Veterans can all get Combi weapons and keep their special ammo all for only 5 points per model. So you can give them some special weapon shots for targets they would otherwise struggle with, for example some Combimeltas for your Podguard to blast that angry walker into Oblivion before they get charged by him.

Combi's on the sarge work, typically one that matches the special weapon he is with. Usually I have a barebones sarge, but if I have a few points left over the bolter gets an upgrade.

Is it possible to modify a sergeant so that it is not close combat oriented?

Your normal Sergeant does have the same equipment like a normal Marine at the start (Bolter & Boltpistol). You can then give him a chainsword for free to get a 3rd attack on him which is pretty common but not really needed imho. I run them naked most of the time, so they can shoot with the same efficiency like the Tacticals they are leading and the point cost for the Sergeant upgrades are pretty high.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Is it possible to modify a sergeant so that it is not close combat oriented?

They have a bolter as their default weapon and you can give them combi-weapons or storm bolters if you want to. As stated already the chainsword + bolt pistol or other close combat loadout is just common for the sergeants and usually the "standard" tactical squad is depicted as a ten man squad with a flamer and a missile launcher in it and the sergeant carrying a bolt pistol and a chainsword.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Is it possible to modify a sergeant so that it is not close combat oriented?

Combi-weapon. Pretty much the only way. I like to have it compliment my other special weapon. Example: plasma and combi-plasma. It's great in those moments that you get a good shot. Say you catch terminators or MEQ out in the open. Those 2 extra rapid fire shots make all the difference.
Similarly the combi-flamer/combi-melta can be used as back-up or extra fire-power. Although I rarely take a flamer.

I don't think it's worth kitting out tac sergeants for challenges personally. Seems like a PW would just go to waste, and a PF is asking for the sergeant to be killed before he hits back.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Really, I like a lot of the fluff. I just get wrapped around theme. For instance, something like the Vulcan and flamethrower spam lists. It would make no sense to me to revolve around pyromaniac theme, and then suddenly have a disproportionate amount of autocannons, and few flamethrower units. As for drop pods, I am iffy on them. I used spore pods to drop close combat troops and equip an occasional heavy weapon for a mixed surprise for my carnifexes. I do know however, that they are iffy cover, considering how easily they can be popped with a jaws of the world wolf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, Devastator Squads and Terminators... can they be outfitted for anti armor, anti horde, and anti-air?

Since you are a fluff junky, you may want to avoid Space Wolves and just go with Codex: Space Marines. Not because one army's fluff is better than the other, but because the army builds versus fluff for Space Wolves is sooo out of whack. Space Wolves hate psykers and love close combat, but the codex rules make it so that their close combat dedicated squads kind of suck, and their long range squads and psykers are the best in the game, so every SW army is loaded with psykers and heavy weapon squads, not exactly in line with the Russ's ideals. Most Space Wolf army builds contain 2-4 Rune Priests and multiple Long Fang squads with 2 Grey Hunter squads. Nobody takes Blood Claws (one of their dedicated assault units) and only a small portion of the SW players take Thunderwolf Cavalry. SW are a powerful army, but the popular (ie, effective) army builds just don't usually fit the fluff that well.

Codex: Space Marines has a few alternate builds available to it that are often dictated by the chapter/special character warlord you take. For example, you can do a Pedro Kantor army that is filled with sternguard veterans, or you can do a White Scars bike build. I'm currently using a Lysander build that features lots of Sternguard and Terminators along with some tanks thrown in for good measure. I will say that its easier to win with Space Wolves versus Codex: SM, but that's not something you seem to concerned with.

Terminators generally are fitted for assault and anti-horde. They have cyclone missile launchers for anti-armour, but thats about it (although, assault cannons can sort of fit both roles thanks to rending). Devastators can be fitted however you want. Missile launchers, multi meltas, and lascannons for anti-armour, while heavy bolters, missile launchers, and plasma cannons are for anti-horde. Long Fangs have the added benefit of one extra heavy weapons and the ability to split fire.

While you are against tanks, what about drop pods? Sternguard in pods supported by empty pods from thunderfires make for a potent combination. Plus sternguard can take special weapons in addition to combi weapons so they are not exactly 1 trick ponies.

Sternguard also combo well with many of the characters. Pedro makes them scoring, vulkan makes the combi/special weapons better and lysander makes the bolters better. All fit in a pod, and except for lysander you can also put a Librarian in the pod with them.

Well, that makes me feel better about possibly investing in Terminators. As for drop pods, I have no objections against them. I just don't know too much about their tactics except for the kamakazi 1 trick pony sterngard anti tank spam. If there is another way to use sternguard that doesn't leave them all dead inside of 5 minutes, I am more than willing to hear. Especially if I can use some sniper scouts for support.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Well, that makes me feel better about possibly investing in Terminators. As for drop pods, I have no objections against them. I just don't know too much about their tactics except for the kamakazi 1 trick pony sterngard anti tank spam. If there is another way to use sternguard that doesn't leave them all dead inside of 5 minutes, I am more than willing to hear. Especially if I can use some sniper scouts for support.

I did field a unit of sternguard once (in 6th ed) in a drop pod that landed on the enemy deployment zone. They wrecked havoc there for the rest of the game. Sure they took a few casualties but the unit was never wiped out. The special issue ammunition can actually increase their survivability more than I had expected.

Look at the FW books (badab war) they are many interessing SM chapters.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Grey Knights can shoot? I thought they were an entire chapter that decided to swing insane force weapons while cutting up daemons.

The greatest trick Matt Ward ever pulled was making people think Grey Knights are an assault army.
My opponents have learned to fear the Prescience psychic power above all others.

Anyway, do you consider Forgeworld an option? The Horus Heresy Legion list can be a fun alternative, and can be infantry focused.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Grey Knights can shoot? I thought they were an entire chapter that decided to swing insane force weapons while cutting up daemons.

The greatest trick Matt Ward ever pulled was making people think Grey Knights are an assault army.
My opponents have learned to fear the Prescience psychic power above all others.

Anyway, do you consider Forgeworld an option? The Horus Heresy Legion list can be a fun alternative, and can be infantry focused.

I know I should, as most people in my area have learned to accept Forgeworld, but I get the nagging feeling there are always going to be competitions and people who won't allow Forgeworld, so I think I will play it safe for now and go all standard. I do love the heresy type stuff, but I think that would be out of reach for now.

Don't go Vanilla Marines. Overrated trash that gets boring and stale, with absolute lack of characterization throughout the Codex, terrible generic HQ's (say goodbye to homemade chapter characters) based around the thick skulled concept of being not great at anything.

And for that reason, they're terrible. A lot of the stuff other Codex's don't get but they do is just pure turd. The only blinding exception is TH/SS Termies, and special characters. But most of the Special characters aren't even that great, the only real decent ones are Vulkan and Lysander, and they don't solve a lot of the biggest problems C:SM suffers, like having the worst army wide rule in all of 40k (you'll never remember to use it and its so rarely useful) and then you're having to pay ridiculous premiums on every unit for it (even those that won't need it in a million years, like Devastators) and suffer ridiculous point comparisons like 115 pt Long ML squads to 155 Devastator squads. And the Long Fangs get an ability that is twice as good.

Heavy weapons on Tacticals isn't a big deal- you'll get maybe one shot off with them in the entire game if you're going mech (and you will be) and it simply doesn't compare to the infinitely cheaper and hard as nails Grey Hunters with efficient special weapon spam.

Anyone that says "Start with vanilla marines" is just following the bandwagon, in reality they're a terrible army to start with if your environment features any form of competitive player.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
I was using Vulcan as an example. I have no real plans to build a Salamanders force. I think I have officially narrowed it down to being some version of Codex: Space Marine. The idea I have running through my mind right now, is to field as many Tactical Squads as possible, combat squadded. Split them down, and dig those 5 man teams into terrain for a 2+ cover save,

No way that idea is going to work, if you want to be competitive you go Mech or drop podding and nothing else. You're not Guard, you don't get cheap heavy weapons or massive surplus' of them, or the heavy stuff to back them up like decent tanks.

and keep flamer and heavy bolters in the front towards the main infantry.

Yeah, 40k tabletop isn't like a hollywood movie where your Marines open fire with a hail of bolts and burst approaching enemies into flames. Instead, your bolts will miss wildly, the flamers won't be doing anything, and what does hit will either wound on a blue moon or get saved most of the time. It doesn't work.

Use multi-melta and rocket launchers to the middle and sides to pulverize enemy armor trying to outflank.

Outflanking tanks are not only incredibly rare nowadays, the odds of this happening like you describe are of less chance than winning the EU international lottery twice in a row.

Keep a dreadnought in the back outfitted with lascannons

Dreadnoughts that aren't armed with autocannons are a waste. And then you can feel mad at Matt Ward for giving C:GK a 5 pt upgrade that makes their riflemen dreads twice as good as yours.

and whatever else I can use for anti-air use, along with an Aegis Defense Line with a few extra Tactical Marines and Devestator Marines manning the quad gun and using extreme range weapons to keep the enemy advancing through as much fire before the forward flamers charge what remains of the infantry to mop them up.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Don't go Vanilla Marines. Overrated trash that gets boring and stale, with absolute lack of characterization throughout the Codex, terrible generic HQ's (say goodbye to homemade chapter characters) based around the thick skulled concept of being not great at anything.

And for that reason, they're terrible. A lot of the stuff other Codex's don't get but they do is just pure turd. The only blinding exception is TH/SS Termies, and special characters. But most of the Special characters aren't even that great, the only real decent ones are Vulkan and Lysander, and they don't solve a lot of the biggest problems C:SM suffers, like having the worst army wide rule in all of 40k (you'll never remember to use it and its so rarely useful) and then you're having to pay ridiculous premiums on every unit for it (even those that won't need it in a million years, like Devastators) and suffer ridiculous point comparisons like 115 pt Long ML squads to 155 Devastator squads. And the Long Fangs get an ability that is twice as good.

Heavy weapons on Tacticals isn't a big deal- you'll get maybe one shot off with them in the entire game if you're going mech (and you will be) and it simply doesn't compare to the infinitely cheaper and hard as nails Grey Hunters with efficient special weapon spam.

Anyone that says "Start with vanilla marines" is just following the bandwagon, in reality they're a terrible army to start with if your environment features any form of competitive player.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
I was using Vulcan as an example. I have no real plans to build a Salamanders force. I think I have officially narrowed it down to being some version of Codex: Space Marine. The idea I have running through my mind right now, is to field as many Tactical Squads as possible, combat squadded. Split them down, and dig those 5 man teams into terrain for a 2+ cover save,

No way that idea is going to work, if you want to be competitive you go Mech or drop podding and nothing else. You're not Guard, you don't get cheap heavy weapons or massive surplus' of them, or the heavy stuff to back them up like decent tanks.

and keep flamer and heavy bolters in the front towards the main infantry.

Yeah, 40k tabletop isn't like a hollywood movie where your Marines open fire with a hail of bolts and burst approaching enemies into flames. Instead, your bolts will miss wildly, the flamers won't be doing anything, and what does hit will either wound on a blue moon or get saved most of the time. It doesn't work.

Use multi-melta and rocket launchers to the middle and sides to pulverize enemy armor trying to outflank.

Outflanking tanks are not only incredibly rare nowadays, the odds of this happening like you describe are of less chance than winning the EU international lottery twice in a row.

Keep a dreadnought in the back outfitted with lascannons

Dreadnoughts that aren't armed with autocannons are a waste. And then you can feel mad at Matt Ward for giving C:GK a 5 pt upgrade that makes their riflemen dreads twice as good as yours.

and whatever else I can use for anti-air use, along with an Aegis Defense Line with a few extra Tactical Marines and Devestator Marines manning the quad gun and using extreme range weapons to keep the enemy advancing through as much fire before the forward flamers charge what remains of the infantry to mop them up.

Combat Tactics is freaking amazing in 6th edition. The Ability to flee combat with no penalty, pick and choose your fights. Can't tell you how great it is to flee on my opponents assault phase, then rapid fire with bolters or even re-charge him myself, depending on the opponent. Heck, you can even do that on an opponent you charged yourself, to get the charge bonus again on your turn. (assuming you lose combat)

I've used it plenty of times to get away from enemy assaulters, as well. Leaving Death Company, Boy Squads, or any other assaulter out in the open always makes me happy.

A well built Vanilla Marine army can stand toe to toe with pretty much any other army. Using your rules and abilities to your maximum advantage is great.

Oh, and Space Wolves are the bandwagon army at the moment, due to how ridiculously easy it is to build a strong army with them, which can be summed up with "Stand back and shoot."

If you take overpriced squads like Devastators, Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, Venerable Dreadnoughts, non-biker captains, most special characters, Chapter Masters, Chaplains (that aren't cassius, if you want a chaplain) and any form of Honor Guard/Command Squad, you are doing Vanilla Marines wrong, btw.

On another note, playing Vanilla Marines means you have access to all the Space Marine models from Forgeworld, unlike other chapters (Space Wolves and Blood Angels cannot take Mortis Pattern contemptors, for example, Grey Knights get virtually nothing out of FW)

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Don't go Vanilla Marines. Overrated trash that gets boring and stale, with absolute lack of characterization throughout the Codex, terrible generic HQ's (say goodbye to homemade chapter characters) based around the thick skulled concept of being not great at anything.

And for that reason, they're terrible. A lot of the stuff other Codex's don't get but they do is just pure turd. The only blinding exception is TH/SS Termies, and special characters. But most of the Special characters aren't even that great, the only real decent ones are Vulkan and Lysander, and they don't solve a lot of the biggest problems C:SM suffers, like having the worst army wide rule in all of 40k (you'll never remember to use it and its so rarely useful) and then you're having to pay ridiculous premiums on every unit for it (even those that won't need it in a million years, like Devastators) and suffer ridiculous point comparisons like 115 pt Long ML squads to 155 Devastator squads. And the Long Fangs get an ability that is twice as good.

Heavy weapons on Tacticals isn't a big deal- you'll get maybe one shot off with them in the entire game if you're going mech (and you will be) and it simply doesn't compare to the infinitely cheaper and hard as nails Grey Hunters with efficient special weapon spam.

Anyone that says "Start with vanilla marines" is just following the bandwagon, in reality they're a terrible army to start with if your environment features any form of competitive player.

Two things:

1. To be honest everyone usually seems to take some other marine army than vanilla marines. At least around here where I live. I think there are two vanilla marine players here.

2. Have you been reading anything at all from this topic about what he wants from his army?

Crazyterran wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Don't go Vanilla Marines. Overrated trash that gets boring and stale, with absolute lack of characterization throughout the Codex, terrible generic HQ's (say goodbye to homemade chapter characters) based around the thick skulled concept of being not great at anything.

And for that reason, they're terrible. A lot of the stuff other Codex's don't get but they do is just pure turd. The only blinding exception is TH/SS Termies, and special characters. But most of the Special characters aren't even that great, the only real decent ones are Vulkan and Lysander, and they don't solve a lot of the biggest problems C:SM suffers, like having the worst army wide rule in all of 40k (you'll never remember to use it and its so rarely useful) and then you're having to pay ridiculous premiums on every unit for it (even those that won't need it in a million years, like Devastators) and suffer ridiculous point comparisons like 115 pt Long ML squads to 155 Devastator squads. And the Long Fangs get an ability that is twice as good.

Heavy weapons on Tacticals isn't a big deal- you'll get maybe one shot off with them in the entire game if you're going mech (and you will be) and it simply doesn't compare to the infinitely cheaper and hard as nails Grey Hunters with efficient special weapon spam.

Anyone that says "Start with vanilla marines" is just following the bandwagon, in reality they're a terrible army to start with if your environment features any form of competitive player.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
I was using Vulcan as an example. I have no real plans to build a Salamanders force. I think I have officially narrowed it down to being some version of Codex: Space Marine. The idea I have running through my mind right now, is to field as many Tactical Squads as possible, combat squadded. Split them down, and dig those 5 man teams into terrain for a 2+ cover save,

No way that idea is going to work, if you want to be competitive you go Mech or drop podding and nothing else. You're not Guard, you don't get cheap heavy weapons or massive surplus' of them, or the heavy stuff to back them up like decent tanks.

and keep flamer and heavy bolters in the front towards the main infantry.

Yeah, 40k tabletop isn't like a hollywood movie where your Marines open fire with a hail of bolts and burst approaching enemies into flames. Instead, your bolts will miss wildly, the flamers won't be doing anything, and what does hit will either wound on a blue moon or get saved most of the time. It doesn't work.

Use multi-melta and rocket launchers to the middle and sides to pulverize enemy armor trying to outflank.

Outflanking tanks are not only incredibly rare nowadays, the odds of this happening like you describe are of less chance than winning the EU international lottery twice in a row.

Keep a dreadnought in the back outfitted with lascannons

Dreadnoughts that aren't armed with autocannons are a waste. And then you can feel mad at Matt Ward for giving C:GK a 5 pt upgrade that makes their riflemen dreads twice as good as yours.

and whatever else I can use for anti-air use, along with an Aegis Defense Line with a few extra Tactical Marines and Devestator Marines manning the quad gun and using extreme range weapons to keep the enemy advancing through as much fire before the forward flamers charge what remains of the infantry to mop them up.

Combat Tactics is freaking amazing in 6th edition. The Ability to flee combat with no penalty, pick and choose your fights. Can't tell you how great it is to flee on my opponents assault phase, then rapid fire with bolters or even re-charge him myself, depending on the opponent. Heck, you can even do that on an opponent you charged yourself, to get the charge bonus again on your turn. (assuming you lose combat)

Yeah, and if you had Grey Hunters maybe they would have won or done more damage. And it doesn't help that Space Marines suck all across the board at CC short of Assault Terminators, and you're hardly going to make them retreat. I don't let my squads get charged most of the time, and those that do always get wiped out in one turn so the rule is basically useless.

I've used it plenty of times to get away from enemy assaulters, as well. Leaving Death Company, Boy Squads, or any other assaulter out in the open always makes me happy.

A well built Vanilla Marine army can stand toe to toe with pretty much any other army. Using your rules and abilities to your maximum advantage is great.

Sure, but most of the time you're having to follow an incredibly strict list built on the same mechanized format people have been running since the dawn of time.

Oh, and Space Wolves are the bandwagon army at the moment, due to how ridiculously easy it is to build a strong army with them, which can be summed up with "Stand back and shoot."

If you take overpriced squads like Devastators, Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, Venerable Dreadnoughts, non-biker captains, most special characters, Chapter Masters, Chaplains (that aren't cassius, if you want a chaplain) and any form of Honor Guard/Command Squad, you are doing Vanilla Marines wrong, btw.

Thats half the Codex. This is why I hate C:SM, you're shoved into a narrow alley of choices, and all that stuff that would have been fun and fluffy is just terrible. And I don't use any of them in the incredibly rare circumstance I even play C:SM anymore.

On another note, playing Vanilla Marines means you have access to all the Space Marine models from Forgeworld, unlike other chapters (Space Wolves and Blood Angels cannot take Mortis Pattern contemptors, for example, Grey Knights get virtually nothing out of FW)

Forgeworld is irrelevant, anything they make for 40k is broken anyway.

Omega, you seem to not have read my original post, and therefore have missed the guidelines for choosing my army.

Guidelines:

1. Theme - I like fluff, and units and tactics that revolve around it. I generally do not care about effectiveness, even if it is a subpar unit.
2. Multiple Small Units - I do not want people to have to deal with the agony of me moving 200+ models a turn. I would rather have many small units that serve more than 1 purpose, so that they can handle whatever I need to throw at them, and it doesn't hurt if the unit gets wiped out.
3. No Tanks - As wonderful as they are, I would perfer running as few tanks as possible. Preferably none, but I am always willing to listen to reason.
4. Not a Straight up Gunline - I have seen IG and the Tau, and I do not want an army that will get ripped apart as quickly as they do. Some assualt capabilities are good, but as long as they are not dedicated, I am fine.
5. Bang for Buck - When it comes to weapons, I perfer reliability, even if it is more expensive. I don't like the idea of a 1 trick pony. Math is always a good thing.
6. No Plasma - I am sorry, but I have seen far too many of my friends' marines die to an exploding plasma gun. However, I can live with it, provided it's something minor, and when it blows, I am not going to lose something valuable.
7. Versatility - Kind of leads back to the multiple small unit thing. If I can combine an anti-tank and anti-infantry in the same unit, that is fine with me.
8. Anti-Air - Kind of important for me, but not a dealbreaker. There is the Aegis Defense Line for a reason.
9. Aircraft - Wait, you have aircraft? I generally do not care for aircraft, kind of like I hate tanks, but if you can make a reasonable suggestion backed up with facts, I am more than willing to change my ways.

Now, you have continued to write nothing but negative comments with a seeming Win-At-All-Costs attitude. I do not care about competative play. It's the farthest thing from my mind. I play for fun, and I shake hands and laugh when the game is over, even if I have lost the match. I do not plan on ever going mechanized, and maybe down the line I will pick up a tank, but not for the forseeable future. I do not care if the unit sucks. I will still bring it, and have some fun. Now, for future posts, if you cannot recommend a codex that fits that criteria, along with units and tactics that fit that criteria, I am going to ask that you do not post it. It's hard enough trying to make an informed opinion on a codex from so many people when more come in and just seem to slam one codex while promoting every single other codex.

Just popped into my mind by the way. I've just been throwing ideas of more "normal" builds than what I actually field myself but there are two infantry units (four if you count the two jump pack units also) that can be used very effectively without a transport. Scouts and the shooty termies. I don't have any experience about the termies but I run "one power armor" lists quite often in 1000 point games more usually referred to as scout lists. Why scouts don't need a transport? Obvious: infiltrate, infiltrate, infiltrate... plus scout rule. And scouts can be used for many different roles depending on how you equip them.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Omega, you seem to not have read my original post, and therefore have missed the guidelines for choosing my army.

Guidelines:

1. Theme - I like fluff, and units and tactics that revolve around it. I generally do not care about effectiveness, even if it is a subpar unit.
2. Multiple Small Units - I do not want people to have to deal with the agony of me moving 200+ models a turn. I would rather have many small units that serve more than 1 purpose, so that they can handle whatever I need to throw at them, and it doesn't hurt if the unit gets wiped out.
3. No Tanks - As wonderful as they are, I would perfer running as few tanks as possible. Preferably none, but I am always willing to listen to reason.
4. Not a Straight up Gunline - I have seen IG and the Tau, and I do not want an army that will get ripped apart as quickly as they do. Some assualt capabilities are good, but as long as they are not dedicated, I am fine.
5. Bang for Buck - When it comes to weapons, I perfer reliability, even if it is more expensive. I don't like the idea of a 1 trick pony. Math is always a good thing.
6. No Plasma - I am sorry, but I have seen far too many of my friends' marines die to an exploding plasma gun. However, I can live with it, provided it's something minor, and when it blows, I am not going to lose something valuable.
7. Versatility - Kind of leads back to the multiple small unit thing. If I can combine an anti-tank and anti-infantry in the same unit, that is fine with me.
8. Anti-Air - Kind of important for me, but not a dealbreaker. There is the Aegis Defense Line for a reason.
9. Aircraft - Wait, you have aircraft? I generally do not care for aircraft, kind of like I hate tanks, but if you can make a reasonable suggestion backed up with facts, I am more than willing to change my ways.

Now, you have continued to write nothing but negative comments with a seeming Win-At-All-Costs attitude. I do not care about competative play. It's the farthest thing from my mind. I play for fun, and I shake hands and laugh when the game is over, even if I have lost the match. I do not plan on ever going mechanized, and maybe down the line I will pick up a tank, but not for the forseeable future. I do not care if the unit sucks. I will still bring it, and have some fun. Now, for future posts, if you cannot recommend a codex that fits that criteria, along with units and tactics that fit that criteria, I am going to ask that you do not post it. It's hard enough trying to make an informed opinion on a codex from so many people when more come in and just seem to slam one codex while promoting every single other codex.

You may as well go for an all Terminator army because thats basically what you're describing. Codex Dark Angels is coming out this month, you'd be wise to pick up that as they get Deathwing.



However I don't appreciate being libelled as WAAC, I am simply competitive (there is a difference, by the way) because that is what is in my local gaming environment. I have many other reasons for hating C:SM amongst "the Codex sucks" and if you play for fun thats fine.

It's ok, I understand. I mostly had to make a point. Now we are getting somewhere. What are the benefits of Deathwing? I know nothing really about the Dark Angels Codex.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:


1. Theme - I like fluff, and units and tactics that revolve around it. I generally do not care about effectiveness, even if it is a subpar unit.
Well, you might want to look at founding a chapter, creating fluff for it, and then posting some of your fluff ideas here so we can make a fluffy army that won't get steamrolled. It's possible i promise
2. Multiple Small Units - I do not want people to have to deal with the agony of me moving 200+ models a turn. I would rather have many small units that serve more than 1 purpose, so that they can handle whatever I need to throw at them, and it doesn't hurt if the unit gets wiped out.
Two things here: MSU has changed a little bit from our 4th edition codex. Now that you have to take full TAC squads before being able to take special/heavy weapons, the MSU TAC squads aren't really a thing anymore. Units that still can be used as MSU are: Devastators(which are really only even semi-viable as a 5 man with 4 ML squad), Assault marines(also of dubious quality, but probably best as last minute contestors and, basically, shooting disruptors), Sternguard(amazing, can fill any shooty roll you want them to, and not too bad at CC... kinda), Scouts (infiltrating scoring units that can take a heavy weapon and easily get 3+ cover saves). aaaaaaaaannnnndddddd that might be about it

as far as the versatility of squads goes though, I think you're going to have a rough time of that. I generally find that it is better to have squads that have only one purpose, they are dedicated to a roll and they are as good as I can make them at doing whatever it is that needs doing. This also makes your tactical options easier to choose from. You aren't going to have an Auto-las predator shooting at guardsmen, whereas a Las bolter pread(just for arguments sake, not saying that such a monstrosity should ever be considered) has a much harder time finding ideal targets
3. No Tanks - As wonderful as they are, I would perfer running as few tanks as possible. Preferably none, but I am always willing to listen to reason.
do dreads and drop pods count? Also, while part of me agrees with you, the fact remains that we only have a few options when it comes to Long range anti-tank fire, and the options that are considered the best happen to be tanks. You might, MIGHT be able to get away with missile devastators, but then SW players will laugh at you as you pay 35 points more for a squad that is worse
4. Not a Straight up Gunline - I have seen IG and the Tau, and I do not want an army that will get ripped apart as quickly as they do. Some assualt capabilities are good, but as long as they are not dedicated, I am fine.
Not that I'm trying to make you play gunline, but remember that space marines are a very different army than tau or IG. Their high leadership, atsknf, combat tactics, and good armor all make them harder to crack than IG or Tau, now, the points cost evens that out, but you're not going to see your squads running off the board anytime soon, or getting routed in CC
5. Bang for Buck - When it comes to weapons, I perfer reliability, even if it is more expensive. I don't like the idea of a 1 trick pony. Math is always a good thing.
Plasma and missile launchers then. Although the thunderfire cannon is amazing, though probably more 1 trick ponyish than you'd like. Also, you're going to need some melta, I'm sorry
6. No Plasma - I am sorry, but I have seen far too many of my friends' marines die to an exploding plasma gun. However, I can live with it, provided it's something minor, and when it blows, I am not going to lose something valuable.
You said math is a good thing, right? so lemme show you why you shouldn't be so scared of plasma.

odds of rolling a 1 to hit (1/6) * the odds of the shot going through armor save (1/3) which means that for every 18 shots you fire, you're going to lose 1 marine. Meanwhile, your opponent will very likely lose 12 guys. in essence... SO FETHING WORTH IT. You have a weapon in your hands that is 1, decent against light tanks, 2, now has a range of basically 30",3 is good against MEQ and TEQ, and 4 is good against MCs
7. Versatility - Kind of leads back to the multiple small unit thing. If I can combine an anti-tank and anti-infantry in the same unit, that is fine with me.
I dont see this working out too well for you, but, Assault cannon/HF/DCCW dreads are pretty versatile. good against tanks, can tarpit infantry, or can fry em. ML devs again, the vindicator is perhaps one of the more versatile units in our codex so far as target engagement goes(see, it can kill everything).

Versatile units aren't that great though... they are hard to take full advantage of
8. Anti-Air - Kind of important for me, but not a dealbreaker. There is the Aegis Defense Line for a reason.
9. Aircraft - Wait, you have aircraft? I generally do not care for aircraft, kind of like I hate tanks, but if you can make a reasonable suggestion backed up with facts, I am more than willing to change my ways.

Ok, so plasma is not as bad as I feared. Now, I don't consider dreadnoughts and drop pods to be tanks. Now, if I did lighten up on the no tanks thing, could I still run mostly foot? And if said restriction was loosened, what would you suggest to compliment the marines?