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I've been having an internal monolog debating the merits of bolter henchmen - 5 point bodies cheap and deemed as overall very effective.

vs

7 point stom bolter acolytes who obviously have an advantage at 24' range but does cost 2 points more

The more I play, the less I find myself getting into range of other people for double taps as the meta is moving towards more and more shooting. I never want to get close to people anyway but I do understand that they are just there as ablative wounds for like space monkies and the like anyway.

What's all your guys's thoughts on this?

If you give them Chimeras, i say use bolters. Its cheaper, and with a metal box you dont care as much about the range.
If you dont, i say storm bolters.
How i run them, to moderate sucess, is to get 12 of them and run them naked other than hotshots.
I assume you have coteaz, so you probably going first. They can really ruin a MEQ's squad day.24 shoot, 12 hit, 10 wound.
Tactical squad is dead.
Also, if you are willing to spend a lot of points on them,
for 19 PPM, you can have a power armored body with a ap3 weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, also, its Monolouge.

The bolter toting version is guardsmen with better weapons, which is an absolute steal. The storm bolters are a good upgrade if you have the points, but the bolters are the best bang for the buck. They die incredibly easily regardless of weapon, might as well keep em cheap but effective. You will probably never be assaulting with the unit, so that aspect of the storm bolter is worthless.

Both synergize well with jokero in the unit, as you have a chance to make them rending or increase range.

If using Jokaeros, use stormbolters. If not, and you don't have the points, bolters.

 faheykeyes wrote:
hotshots.
They can really ruin a MEQ's squad day.24 shoot, 12 hit, 10 wound.

Your math is really off

24 shots, 1/2 hit
12 hits 1/3 wound (5+)
4 wounds at AP3.

Maybe there is cover or something else as well.




Personally I would go with botlers. Acolytes are there to be cheap bodies mostly. The added S4 damage from the bolters is just gravy.

Umm, I think I like the storm bolters better. Certainly with joakero (I've seen mean things done with this), but I think even in general.

If you're going to bother to take bolt weapons on guardsmen at all, it's because you want to kill GEq at range. The storm bolter does this better.

Turn it around. Let's say that your warriors cost 7 points base, and that you had to take an option that gave you regular bolters (and some points) instead. Would you go out of your way to give your warriors worse guns for just a few measly points?

I guess if your list just so happened to have that specific of a need, then I guess, but generally, the answer to me seems to favor the storm bolters.

Mathmatically for foot slogging it goes like this:

12 bolter acolytes - @24 inches (out of rapid fire) - 12 shots, BS 3

at least 4 wounds that get past armor 3+/ at 62.66%.
5 wounds about 38.84%

12 storm bolter acolytes - @ 24 inches BS 3

8 wounds that get past 3+ amor at 60.43%
9 wounds at 43.41%

--------------------------

Relative cost - 60 points vs 84 points , so roughly 40% increase in points
Average wounds dealt - 50% increase at average rate just there a bouts so it "seems" more useful.

Now to consider the return fire, say vs 10 man Tac squad - with bolters and 5+ cover (trying to kind of realistic here since I honestly can't remember the last time I left the henchmen out of cover)

6 wounds with 10 bolter shots at 24' at 64.54% of the time, with 5 wounds at 84.19% and 7 wounds at 39.47% back against the henchmen. More realistically, those Tac squads will probably have some sort of melta or plasma gun now a days and often some sort of missle launcher/plasma cannon so I've noticed that they rarely will close with me now and rather just rain plasma death on me from 36-24' most times so each round more realistically sees me lose closer to 8-9 henchmen on average to a 10 man tac squad with proper equipement at 24'.

Vs hordes who will still try to close with me (assuming that they are like shoota boys and will start to plink at me by 18' or something like that)

(also assuming some sort of 5+ cover save like KFF for example)

I'll just play out a potential scenario.
turn1
24' the 30 horde boys get in range but will chose to run that turn

Bolters vs storm bolters

4 wounds at 62.66% vs 8 wounds at 60.43%

The next turn, hordes close to within 18' and more likely 15' or so but shoots instead of running.

26 shootas back vs 22 shootas back

Shootas will do - 14 wounds with a 5+ cover save and 5 armor save at 66.84% (vs bolters that just took out 4 of them) 12 wounds at 82.46% even with a 5+ to hit. 52 shots is just alot of bullets.

Vs the 22 shoota scenario -

12 wounds at 70.75% 13 wounds at 58.55%, 11 wounds at 88.61%

In both scenarios such as above, you lose your whole acolyte squad but that's kind of expected as the orks are 180 points vs 60 and 84 points respectively.

In both versions of the above, the acolytes can just as easily run backwards too and you can try to keep them out of the 18' window of death essentially.

Bolters will continue to pink away at the horde but likely to still die as the horde can run and will close the distance after 2 rounds

Storm bolters would have chewed away some 16 on average vs 8 and at 16 casualties, the horde is down alot more so after 2 rounds, on the return fire, you should see just 14 shootas left and at 18' by round 3, they would only be able to manage 8 wounds at 64.58%, 9 wounds at 48.39%, or 6 wounds at 89.24%.

Still a morale check but your 84 point unit essentially ground down something that was more than 2x its points.

This is just an example of course but I just can't get it out of my head that despite 40% increase in points, you can generally get 50% more effectiveness it seems out of them. Am I just reading too much into the numbers?

Now put those 12 acolytes in a chimera with 3 plasma guns. That's why I leave them bolters over storm bolters.

I go for bolters most of the time.


If there is a unit I really need to assault with my shooty henchmen, I will not shoot first. I could kill models and get out of assault range, or I could force a fall back (which with ATSKNF is really good for the enemy) The storm bolters being assault is not a big deal.


I never run short range shooty henchmen on foot. They are always in a chimera for the firepoints. The bolters are usually only shooting once i get out within 12" of something so the extra shots at long range from the storm bolters is not needed.


I could see maybe running 2 storm bolters in a unit with the rest bolters. 3 plasmas, 2 storm bolters out of the firepoints of a Chimera, the rest bolters for when you get out to Rapid fire.

I like storm bolters with 2 jokero. The extra range or rending both give the storm bolters a nice boost, and the combination of weapons on the jokero are just gravy.

I like bolters when taking chimera squads so you have some bite when disembarked, as while in the chimera you will be using special weapons. For example 3 servitors with plasma cannons and Bolter henchmen for ablative wounds since your chimera will be a pretty big target.

My personal thought on all this is what the role of your henchmen are going to be. If they're going to be ablative wounds for something more valuable like a 8-man Psyker Henchmen squad, or a Jokaero+Plascannon Servitor firebase, keep them cheap. Bolters will do.

If you're planning to run them as more of a mobile gunline in a Chimera, then stormbolters as mentioned will do you a better job. Also worth it to consider is your local meta as to who's fielding what armies. Stormbolters and bolters work very differently numbers-wise (already crunched out above by sudojoe, thankfully!) against MEQ and GEQ armies.

Are storm bolters are positive ROI investment? Yes.

From a strictly mathematical perspective the flaw in your model is that you are missing an important part of the equation, your alternative to stormbolters.

Don't think of this problem as bolter versus stormbolter. It's stormbolter versus bolter and something else. So you need to have a sense of the return for whatever that something else is if you'd use the points for.

So for example compare the ROI for 12 SB versus 11 B with one Jokaero as others are suggesting.

Enigwolf wrote:My personal thought on all this is what the role of your henchmen are going to be. If they're going to be ablative wounds for something more valuable like a 8-man Psyker Henchmen squad, or a Jokaero+Plascannon Servitor firebase, keep them cheap. Bolters will do.

If you're planning to run them as more of a mobile gunline in a Chimera, then stormbolters as mentioned will do you a better job. Also worth it to consider is your local meta as to who's fielding what armies. Stormbolters and bolters work very differently numbers-wise (already crunched out above by sudojoe, thankfully!) against MEQ and GEQ armies.

Technically I calculated vs MEQ and vs orks lol but I can do a scenario vs gunline guard/tau/eldar behind an AEGIS if you like

jadedknight wrote:Are storm bolters are positive ROI investment? Yes.

From a strictly mathematical perspective the flaw in your model is that you are missing an important part of the equation, your alternative to stormbolters.

Don't think of this problem as bolter versus stormbolter. It's stormbolter versus bolter and something else. So you need to have a sense of the return for whatever that something else is if you'd use the points for.

So for example compare the ROI for 12 SB versus 11 B with one Jokaero as others are suggesting.

Any other particular scenarios you guys wanna see? It'll be somewhat confusing points wise but I can try my best to come up with some realistic builds.

Incidentially, if what we're doing is using them as essentially bullet bait, I also have to ask, why even waste one point for a bolter? When they are down to that low of numbers, I just throw them into LOS blocking whatevers. Not really planning any last minute heroics with like 3 guys lol.

The easiest way to look at it is 7 bolters versus 5 storm bolters.

At range 12 the bolters crank out 14 shots to 10 from the stormbolters.

Past 12" up to 24" the ratio is 7 to 10.

The Dakka is pretty close, but the bolters have 40% more boots on the ground, which can hold objectives, which wins the game.

Technically, it's slightly more scaled than that.

At 1-12", 7 Bolters = 14 Shots, 5 Storm Bolters = 10 Shots + Ability to Charge after.
At 12.1-24", 7 Bolters = 7 Shots, 5 Storm Bolters = 10 Shots.

(Edit almost invalidating this post... I thought Storm Bolters only had 18" range - where did I get that idea...)

 Ovion wrote:
Technically, it's slightly more scaled than that.

At 1-12", 7 Bolters = 14 Shots, 5 Storm Bolters = 10 Shots + Ability to Charge after.
At 12.1-24", 7 Bolters = 7 Shots, 5 Storm Bolters = 10 Shots.

(Edit almost invalidating this post... I thought Storm Bolters only had 18" range - where did I get that idea...)

Probably cause of DE night shields. It messes me up all the time lol

 sudojoe wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
Technically, it's slightly more scaled than that.

At 1-12", 7 Bolters = 14 Shots, 5 Storm Bolters = 10 Shots + Ability to Charge after.
At 12.1-24", 7 Bolters = 7 Shots, 5 Storm Bolters = 10 Shots.

(Edit almost invalidating this post... I thought Storm Bolters only had 18" range - where did I get that idea...)

Probably cause of DE night shields. It messes me up all the time lol

Now up the scale to 175 points and the difference in bodies /wounds is 25 to 35 models. That's an extra 10 bodies which should make a huge difference for holding objectives. .

The wound difference is important, but also consider first strike ability. While bolters have more bodies, storm bolters can hit harder at the range necessary to keep them safe from counter fire and assaults. Since most of what will threaten them is infantry based, this holds true in most cases. Aka shoot firstest with the mostest I believe the saying goes.

Also, max storm Bolter henchies run 504, versus 360. For 144 points saved max you do not gain very much in terms of another unit. keep in mind the henchmen and Coteaz do not cost enough to deny any other unit you may want, so the 144 will be towards an ancillary force. Imho if you went the storm Bolter route you are much better off as the weakness of henchmen, their weak stats and saves, are more than accounted for by an aegis and support assault units.

I think this used to be a no-brainer with the old rapid fire rules. Now we actually have something to ponder.
My knee-jerk is to say that Stormbolters are just better, which is true, so it is probably worth the minor points increase. Its not like its a 10pt upgrade or anything.
Also, considering you don't want your acolytes getting anywhere near close combat (unless you DO!), I'd say plinking out shots with a couple of monkeys from a Chimera is what you should be doing with these guys.
On the flip side, I can easily find a lot more bolter bits than I can stormbolter ones... something to consider, not tactically, but realistically.

DevianID wrote:
The wound difference is important, but also consider first strike ability. While bolters have more bodies, storm bolters can hit harder at the range necessary to keep them safe from counter fire and assaults. Since most of what will threaten them is infantry based, this holds true in most cases. Aka shoot firstest with the mostest I believe the saying goes.

Also, max storm Bolter henchies run 504, versus 360. For 144 points saved max you do not gain very much in terms of another unit. keep in mind the henchmen and Coteaz do not cost enough to deny any other unit you may want, so the 144 will be towards an ancillary force. Imho if you went the storm Bolter route you are much better off as the weakness of henchmen, their weak stats and saves, are more than accounted for by an aegis and support assault units.

That's about enough to upgrade 5 bolters to apes, or buy a dread Knight, or add a purifier squad with 2 psycannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or enough points to upgrade 16 bolt guns to plasma guns

I love the "144 points is not much in terms of another unit" thing, GK are an expensive point-wise army, but 144 is more then many armies maxed-out squads.

The point in my eye, is that storm bolters are actually providing too much firepower per model. they make the unit have incredible firepower compared to its meager livability (as you don't run them in power armor do ya? if you do you might as well run full-fledged knights)

Simply put, if you place storm bolters you get an increase in firepower per model and by such the value of killing a given model is higher, but the effort to kill it remains just as low.

Sometimes firepower isn't everything.


If I would take a squad-over weapon upgrade it will be the hot-shots, and then put it in power armor with two apes.
Sure it will be expensive as hell, but will be a MEQ terror squad.
Might not be the best squad ever, but at least it offers something special, unlike storm bolter henchmen.

I think it's situational, as per usual. Most calculations are going to suggest the bolters are better value. They probably are, considered in a vacuum, but GEQs don't usually have power armour so can't function in a vacuum. (Literally or figuratively!)

You're either walking them, in which case I'd probably have bolters, because storm bolters on GEQs says "Shoot Me"; or you're putting them in a Rhino, in which case, probably bolters again, along with at least a couple of special weapons (specials to shoot out the hatch, bolters for rapid firing if you all get out); or you're putting them in a Razorback, in which case you might not want to pay any extra for guns at all (they're mostly just scoring bodies) or might want bolters (get out & rapid fire, at a pinch); or you're putting them in a Chimera, in which case, in my opinion, storm bolters synergise pretty well with the range of the Chim's weapons, and with the fact that you can shoot 5 guys out of the hatch rather than 2, and with the half-decent protection you have.

Except that the guys in the chimera have 3 plasma guns already and since you can only have 5 guys shoot out the hatch do you real need those 2 extra storm bolters. I run 3 plasma guys, 8 bolter guys and one Oranguntang in my chimeras. I run 6 acolaytes wih power armor, 3 wih storm bolters and 3 withe meltaguns in razorbacks. Any henchmen that make it into my list that take a rhino get flamers and bolters.

Bolters. Since chimeras are the way to run acolytes the extra 12" dont make a difference.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I run 6 acolaytes wih power armor, 3 wih storm bolters and 3 withe meltaguns in razorbacks. Any henchmen that make it into my list that take a rhino get flamers and bolters.

You give your acolytes power armor?! =S

Lol, they started out as rouge trader marines, the first GW models I ever owned actually, anyway they had been on the shelf for years because they are way to small to run with current marine models, then it hit me, henchmen with power armor. Now the original 6 have catachan heads. I love the sisters models, but I don't want to play sisters, so I got 6 for Christmas, 3 storm bolter and 3 meltaguns.

I love GK inquisitors and henchmen, so many choices so fluffy. I don't run any conventionally competative GK in my GK project Army.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/448561.page

You can see them as a WIP on my thread, page 2.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I love the "144 points is not much in terms of another unit" thing, GK are an expensive point-wise army, but 144 is more then many armies maxed-out squads.

The point in my eye, is that storm bolters are actually providing too much firepower per model. they make the unit have incredible firepower compared to its meager livability (as you don't run them in power armor do ya? if you do you might as well run full-fledged knights)

Simply put, if you place storm bolters you get an increase in firepower per model and by such the value of killing a given model is higher, but the effort to kill it remains just as low.

Sometimes firepower isn't everything.


If I would take a squad-over weapon upgrade it will be the hot-shots, and then put it in power armor with two apes.
Sure it will be expensive as hell, but will be a MEQ terror squad.
Might not be the best squad ever, but at least it offers something special, unlike storm bolter henchmen.

You are correct, firepower isn't everything but at the same time, having just some bolter henchmen also aren't enough of a threat to people. I'd almost much rather people shoot the crap out of my henchmen in cover who would be happy to gtg instead of my marines who are very very expensive.

I've noticed that people tend to just ignore small groups of henchmen as they are too low in priority unless I can get inside double tap range. 86 points of stom bolters tend to get some attention at least is my thinking. Maybe distract from the purifiers that are comming for them.

Alternatively if they do ignore the henchmen and go after my marines, I really do want the firepower to make them pay for that mistake yet the time to cross cover to rapid fire range is really difficult to impossible sometimes I feel.

I definately see where bolter henchmen come into their own just working as an escort for some psykers or as such as I've run them that way before for the past 9 months or so in fact. I'm trying to further optimize I suppose as I personally feel the meta has changed since those early days and I'm already seeing much much more gunlines shooting eachother with some fast elements thrown about backed up by fliers.