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I voted no.
Abandon and the Black Legion do not favour one god over the others. He should be in an unmarked unit, preferably of his own Legion.
Also my FLGS prefer to play RAW, less arguments if you stick to the letter of the rule rather than everyone having a different interpretation.

To me, letting him join a marked unit isn't giving him an advantage. However, not letting him join a marked unit is like penalizing him. Just like not letting a tyranid prime join a unit of tyranid warriors in a spore when in every other codex, an IC can join a unit in a drop pod. It is RAW at its worst and just sheer boneheaded stupidity.

 jy2 wrote:
To me, letting him join a marked unit isn't giving him an advantage. However, not letting him join a marked unit is like penalizing him. Just like not letting a tyranid prime join a unit of tyranid warriors in a spore when in every other codex, an IC can join a unit in a drop pod. It is RAW at its worst and just sheer boneheaded stupidity.

Not similar situations - Primes have an FAQ specifically forbidding that.

Since we are talking about HWYPI, the premise is the same. It's penalizing the character when all other characters can do it without restriction. That puts him at an unfair disadvantage by RAW, which is what I oppose.

 jy2 wrote:
Since we are talking about HWYPI, the premise is the same. It's penalizing the character when all other characters can do it without restriction. That puts him at an unfair disadvantage by RAW, which is what I oppose.

Space Wolves have restrictions on some ICs and certain units, so it's not entirely without precedent.

And even within the CSM codex, certain ICs can't join certain units... That's exactly what led to this discussion in the first place.

 jy2 wrote:
Since we are talking about HWYPI, the premise is the same. It's penalizing the character when all other characters can do it without restriction. That puts him at an unfair disadvantage by RAW, which is what I oppose.

While we're talking about unfair.
I dislike the fact that Runepriests can't have the same Gear loadout.
Can't take the same 2 Psy Powers, etc.

This game's not always about what is fair.

Abbadon costs a lot of points to field... Only being able to attach him to unmarked squads is definitely a disadvantage... Not to the point he's not worth taking but you have to think about it more. I don't think this was the intent (never was before as far as I remember). Of course that's just my opinion.

Oh we are talking unfair? I think it is unfair that Tau, Eldar, and Black Templar are still at best 4th ed codices.

I also think it unfair that my Nids cannot ally with any of their food sources.

 Happyjew wrote:
Oh we are talking unfair? I think it is unfair that Tau, Eldar, and Black Templar are still at best 4th ed codices.

let's not forget orks, they were the end of 4th with 4th/5th in mind which in some ways screws them over big.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Since we are talking about HWYPI, the premise is the same. It's penalizing the character when all other characters can do it without restriction. That puts him at an unfair disadvantage by RAW, which is what I oppose.

While we're talking about unfair.
I dislike the fact that Runepriests can't have the same Gear loadout.
Can't take the same 2 Psy Powers, etc.

This game's not always about what is fair.

Oh noes...they can't take the same wargear....but they can take 4 HQ's? And now the psychic powers are all but moot as they can trade them in for the awesome book powers.

Now look at it this way. What if GW put out a rule that Logan can only join Wolf Guards, Ragnar can only join blood claws, Dante may only join Sanguinary Guards, Shrike can only join assault marines, Pedro may only join sternguards, Coteaz may only join henchmen units or Draigo can only join paladins?

I'm not arguing about the RAW of it. I just don't like it on the basis that it isn't fair (not that my opinion matters except only to my opponent in a game).

 insaniak wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Since we are talking about HWYPI, the premise is the same. It's penalizing the character when all other characters can do it without restriction. That puts him at an unfair disadvantage by RAW, which is what I oppose.

Space Wolves have restrictions on some ICs and certain units, so it's not entirely without precedent.

And even within the CSM codex, certain ICs can't join certain units... That's exactly what led to this discussion in the first place.

I'm not really seeing much of a restriction on having to take different wargear combinations, especially when you can take 4 HQ's and when those RP's can exchange for book powers so it doesn't really matter what combination they take.

I have no problems about Chaos IC's only being able to join units of their respective Gods. But to not let Abaddon join any cults just because he possess all the Marks, that is an unintended consequence of RAW in this case which penalizes him unduly.

And I don't normally bring up fluff, but why would a God of Chaos bless him with his Mark when he knows his rivals are doing the same? Yes, you can have my Mark but you can't join my followers?

 jy2 wrote:


And I don't normally bring up fluff, but why would a God of Chaos bless him with his Mark when he knows his rivals are doing the same? Yes, you can have my Mark but you can't join my followers?

Makes sense fluffwise by that logic

You may have my MoK but you may never join what's the enemy of Khorn? Tz?

 Happyjew wrote:
Oh we are talking unfair? I think it is unfair that Tau, Eldar, and Black Templar are still at best 4th ed codices.

I also think it unfair that my Nids cannot ally with any of their food sources.

Then play a different army if it bothers you that much.

Abaddon is nerfed because of sloppy writing on behalf of GW. The other armies are nerfed just because they are old. You want to level the playing field? Feel free to use (or allow your opponent to use) custom rules if your opponent agrees. As for tyranids, they were intentionally nerfed when it comes to allies. No accident about that. The RAW and RAI there is very clear. But still, you have the option not to like it.




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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 jy2 wrote:


And I don't normally bring up fluff, but why would a God of Chaos bless him with his Mark when he knows his rivals are doing the same? Yes, you can have my Mark but you can't join my followers?

Makes sense fluffwise by that logic

You may have my MoK but you may never join what's the enemy of Khorn? Tz?

Then why even give him your Mark when you know your enemy has also done the same? What? You are the favored of my enemy? Then you shall become my favorite as well....

The game is about having fun-it's a GAME, for God's sake. Things should make sense in order to have fun. I don't care what the writer says, it just makes no sense that Abaddon can't join any unit in his Legion-So I would allow my opponent to join any unit with Abby, and if I brought out my CSM and somehow decided to buy/borrow/field Abaddon, I'd expect the same.

To me it's not incredible that Abaddon might not want to join cult troops, under the rationale that he wouldn't want to show favor to any one god and risk the ire of the others.

As a chaos player, I'm not going to attach Abaddon to marked units unless the TO or a GW FAQ tells me it's okay.

When I run Abaddon, I also won't attach him to cult troops. Instead, I will run him with a squad of 20-30 unmarked cultists or maybe even zombies (if I have Typhus in the army as well).

Sure, there is some justification for Abaddon either ways. And you can demonstrate that by running him with an unmarked unit. But you can't demonstrate the opposite by running him with a unit of marked followers, at least not without playing how you think the rules should actually be.

My stance still stands. RAW in this case is stupid, and I would let my opponent run Abaddon with the cult units if they wanted, whether casual or in a tournament. Because if my opponent beats me with this combo, it wouldn't be because of the rules intepretations. Either he would have to outplay me or the dice would have to outplay me.

 Hedkrakka wrote:
The game is about having fun-it's a GAME, for God's sake. Things should make sense in order to have fun. I don't care what the writer says, it just makes no sense that Abaddon can't join any unit in his Legion-So I would allow my opponent to join any unit with Abby, and if I brought out my CSM and somehow decided to buy/borrow/field Abaddon, I'd expect the same.

We all know the Gods dislike each other.
Why would they "share" him with the others?

There's no such thing as Undivided anymore so that rationale falls short for me but I respect your opinion.

 grendel083 wrote:
I voted no.
Abandon and the Black Legion do not favour one god over the others. He should be in an unmarked unit, preferably of his own Legion.
Also my FLGS prefer to play RAW, less arguments if you stick to the letter of the rule rather than everyone having a different interpretation.

Then how do you explain that the Black Legion has Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Thousand Sons in Blck Legion uniforms (ref. 4th edition codex and/or 5th edition BRB, IIRC)? Is there something I overlooked in the new codex that invalidates/overrides this information?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Hedkrakka wrote:
The game is about having fun-it's a GAME, for God's sake. Things should make sense in order to have fun. I don't care what the writer says, it just makes no sense that Abaddon can't join any unit in his Legion-So I would allow my opponent to join any unit with Abby, and if I brought out my CSM and somehow decided to buy/borrow/field Abaddon, I'd expect the same.

We all know the Gods dislike each other.
Why would they "share" him with the others?

If you read Abaddon's fluff, it clearly states that he has gained the favor of each of the Chaos gods, but resisted becoming the pawn of any of them. So IMHO he would have the necessary respect from each cult troop to allow him to lead any of them (he's the Warmaster, isn't he?),

 Hedkrakka wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I voted no.
Abandon and the Black Legion do not favour one god over the others. He should be in an unmarked unit, preferably of his own Legion.
Also my FLGS prefer to play RAW, less arguments if you stick to the letter of the rule rather than everyone having a different interpretation.

Then how do you explain that the Black Legion has Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Thousand Sons in Blck Legion uniforms (ref. 4th edition codex and/or 5th edition BRB, IIRC)? Is there something I overlooked in the new codex that invalidates/overrides this information?

I've seen Lysander painted as an Ultramarine. A Thousand Sons marine in black armour is still of the Thousands Sons Legion, not the Black Legion.

 jy2 wrote:
I'm not really seeing much of a restriction on having to take different wargear combinations, especially when you can take 4 HQ's and when those RP's can exchange for book powers so it doesn't really matter what combination they take.

What...? We were talking about characters being restricted from joining certain units. Leader of the Pack has nothing to do with it. Wargear choices affect how ICs can join certain Space Wolf units.

And I don't normally bring up fluff, but why would a God of Chaos bless him with his Mark when he knows his rivals are doing the same? Yes, you can have my Mark but you can't join my followers?

Why do Chaos Gods do anything?

I think the word 'Chaos' might be a hint...

 grendel083 wrote:

 Hedkrakka wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I voted no.
Abandon and the Black Legion do not favour one god over the others. He should be in an unmarked unit, preferably of his own Legion.
Also my FLGS prefer to play RAW, less arguments if you stick to the letter of the rule rather than everyone having a different interpretation.

Then how do you explain that the Black Legion has Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Thousand Sons in Blck Legion uniforms (ref. 4th edition codex and/or 5th edition BRB, IIRC)? Is there something I overlooked in the new codex that invalidates/overrides this information?

I've seen Lysander painted as an Ultramarine. A Thousand Sons marine in black armour is still of the Thousands Sons Legion, not the Black Legion.

The difference is that there are Black Legion cult troops in GW codices/rulebooks, and there is clear evidence in the fluff written in those (canon!) that some renounce their allegiance to their warbands and join Abaddon. Yeah, they're still not Undivided, but what difference does it make? If they're willing to abandon their own "aligned" legion and join an "undivided" legion, it's pretty much a given that they'd let Abaddon lead them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just fluffwise, of course. I perfectly respect a "RAW to minimize arguments" approach.

Can abbadon eat poptarts if they are marked???? No, well then I voted no. Until an faq I will not move to take what can be perceived as a favorable ruling. The rules seem clear.