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Im going to post my argument at Warseer, please give me the Dakka advice:

EWG:
I was on a trip today and came up with a few questions.

VotLW, adds +1 to leadership.

1. Is this included in the models profile? DP is LD 9 in his stat block and has the special rule VotLW. Is his leadership 9 or 10?

2. That danged Tyranid character lictor chooses a model and subtracts D3 leadership. If the Chaos Lord is already LD 10, takes VotLW (LD 11 max 10) and the D3 rolls a 1 (to make the Lord LD 9, does VotLW raise it back up to 10?

Other:

If VotLW is included as part of the standard wargear then the Ld increase is part of the statline in a similar manner to star increases from Marks.
As to the Lord's Ld 10/11 query, no stat can exceed 10 so all they benefit from this addition is the Hatred aspect. And to clarify it is not a case where the Ld is 11 but counts as 10, just in case he gets hit by a Lictor bomb it is simply Ld10.

EWG:

Okay, then the leadership 10 counts as 10, and is reduced to 9, then back up 1 to 10 for VotLW? Or not?

Other 2:

His LD is 10. It counts as 10. If it is reduced by 1, it is 9. Even with VotLW.

EWG:

So the +1 is only applied before adjustments? Its not in his stat line. Its a +1 Leadership. Look, I am not trying to be hard headed... I am looking for the rulebook reference and best answer.

Another example is a character taking +1 strength. Then an item gives him -1 str. If his base Str was 4, then the final Str would be 4.

He already has a 10.... he gets +1 ld which does not count... obviously. Its a continuous effect though. +1 leadership. Then the enemy lowers his leadership D3, lets say a 1 was rolled. Now his leadership is 9. Why can't the +1 Leadership apply now?


Your thoughts, Dakka?

For stuff that have it standard (DP, 1K sons), I would follow the reference on Pg 30 where it states that Having it Standard is already taken into account on its profile. So DPs are really Ld 8 but VotLW boosts it to 9.

As for the Deathleaper bit, I am pretty sure that the -D3 would apply only. The reason being that VotLW takes effect at the List Building stage and Deathleaper at the beginning of the game, therefore overriding the +1. Also, as you can only max Stats at 10, the +1 wouldn't carry over.

 Deadshot wrote:
For stuff that have it standard (DP, 1K sons), I would follow the reference on Pg 30 where it states that Having it Standard is already taken into account on its profile. So DPs are really Ld 8 but VotLW boosts it to 9.

As for the Deathleaper bit, I am pretty sure that the -D3 would apply only. The reason being that VotLW takes effect at the List Building stage and Deathleaper at the beginning of the game, therefore overriding the +1. Also, as you can only max Stats at 10, the +1 wouldn't carry over.

Not quite so sure on the Deathleaper bit. First off, the rules for multiple modifiers on page 2 would actually have the deathleaper and VoTL cancel out to a degree. -3 and +1, essentially. Also, VoTL does not state when it takes place, so it appears to be more of a static bonus than anything. As long as they have that rule, they gain +1 leadership. And again, while stats max at 10, that doesn't mean the modifiers for them go away. Example, a leadership 10 model buys VoTL, then has his leadership reduced by one. VoTL is still active on the character, just not in effect becuase the character is already at leadership 10, so the penalty would apply, bringing him down to 9, then VoTL would kick in, bringing him back up to leadership 10(They would actually negate each other according to the BRB.)

DP are Ld 9, even with VotLW, which makes them terrible psykers.

 Exergy wrote:
DP are Ld 9, even with VotLW, which makes them terrible psykers.

How is that terrible? That's only 1 away from max, and they can fire two witchfires...

I used a 320 point 3 Level Nurgle DP psyker last Satyrday, and whilst Iron Arm is freakin' awesome on a Daemon Prince, Nurgle's Rot and Psychic Shriek combined did very very little to the enemy, perhaps killing off 8 extra Space Marines besides his Vector Strike and assault totals, which ended sadly after charging a unit of Terminators which made all but 1 of their invuls, and then they Power Fisted him to death (I didn't make my invuls enough).

I would've gladly traded those psychic powers for a Murder Sword vs the Termies, and the Black Mace's Curse would've most likely caused the same amount of extra death as the psychic powers did. DPs need those extra attacks to make them worthwhile; although I think one with the Burning Brand and Dimensional Key is the ONLY way to make that damn Key do anything.

But anyway...regarding the VOTLW Leadership bump, even if the model (like a Lord) is already at 10, it only grants him the bonus of Hatred(Space Marines), no lurking bonus Ld in case something else knocks it down.

I don't see why the fact VotLW is taken at army construction and is permanent makes any difference, it's still a Leadership Bonus, it just happens to always be there.

He doesn't cease to have the rule once the game has started, he continues to have a special rule saying he has +1 leadership, so when exposed to -1 leadership he would be able to ignore that remaining at LD10.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
I don't see why the fact VotLW is taken at army construction and is permanent makes any difference, it's still a Leadership Bonus, it just happens to always be there.

He doesn't cease to have the rule once the game has started, he continues to have a special rule saying he has +1 leadership, so when exposed to -1 leadership he would be able to ignore that remaining at LD10.

The problem with this logic is that he's essentially getting the bonus twice; once to his base stat, and then once AGAIN when it cancels the penalty. So, he's either Ld 9 and ignores one point of Ld penalty OR he's Ld 10 and takes penalties as normal. It doesn't work twice.

The thing I was just thinking about is if a unit with Vets as standard, being affected by Deathleaper. For example, Abbaddon, DPs, Aspiring Sorcerors. Because they have it as standard, they cannot claim the +1 after the penalty because the bonus is built into their profile already.

I do not see why a Chaos Lord or Warpsmith would be able to gain +1 from purchasing it after Deathleaper where a Aspiring Sorceror doesn't.

Ultimately, the question can be boiled down to this: if I have a Ld of 10+1-1, what value do I end up with?

People who say "9" believe so because the +1 takes the characteristic above 10, so would be capped by the maximum characteristic rules.

But why would you apply the +1 first? Why don't you apply the -1 first? In fact, mathematically, the two modifiers should be applied at the same time, not sequentially.

The only thing that should matter is that the end result is not above 10.

We've had this before with vehicle damage

Capping before you have added everything results in errors.

He is Ld 10+1 = 10. If Leaper drops that by 1, he is Ld 10 + (1-1) = 10

He doesnt get the benefit twice, he just actually gets the benefit