Not so good Defiance Games news.

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**Shepherd23**

Antinocites does have a very good rep and he has been around for sometime now. I do like his suit, but I loves the Defiance suits concept art. I don't know what it was, but I loved it from day one. Probably because it couldn't look any different from a space marine if it tried. Always hated GW marine models. They just look wrong somehow.

To my understanding, Howard was involved with the last company as well. I may be mistaken though.

**NAVARRO**

Shepherd23 wrote:
Only a few bugs and Germans have shipped. Very few from what I understand.

As for blame, tony has stated that the learning curve on the troll forged system was greater than expected. I do not recall seeing anything where he specifically blamed troll forged for the delays.
s.

Dags wrote:
Can't log in at work wrote:

Ttbhj spoke of the delays....and had an explanation that didn't put too much on his own shoulders:

"This was a new process that Ed was still perfecting"

"It was great to start with these (bugs) as it was the perfect test of the system and helped Ed iron out a lot of issues"

Anyone who's seen a Trollcast Sasha knows there aren't any issues to iron out; they're fething superb

Ed answer: My process works fine for me, them and their system not so well it appears but again most of that has been not taking in my suggestions. I have no idea why it has problems for them other than the way they have so many parts which then requires them to box more but for sorting out the process I've done my job here and I'm sorting THEIR problems out not mine. I'm not to fond of the situation but doing what I can to make it work for now. No big deal to me as everyone else coming in is happy and if they would have paid to get production up and running here with me things would be going smooth now. I did however not wish to take that job on as I was afraid this might happen in the end, so now they are responsible for taking money and full filling the orders. There is a lot of good in this deal but again I'm not a complete idiot so had to test the waters and see what happens. I believe Tony is trying hard but still not sure they can pull if off anymore. The bad press has been to long and this is probably the nail in his coffin. It's a shame.

**RiTides**

So, I don't know the background here- did they have Ed from Trollforged give them some training / tips last year, and tried to replicate his process and do it in-house rather than having him do it, or...? That's a complete black box to me.

**Bolognesus**

Way I read it, they basically paid Ed for the rights to use the process and to help them a bit in setting it up but were either too cheap to pay him to set it up entirely / do production for them or too determined to do it themselves to do so.
So basically Ed gave them a working process, helped them out here and there etc but if you have an incompetent monkey working the mold making and spincasting processes it's still going to bomb, no matter how good the process is.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

They had plans to get large scale 'plastic' spin casting going in house

(which was a smart move as they were clearly having problems getting stuff done in a timely fashion)

Ed from Trollforged came in to help with this providing advise, expertise and a varient of his plastic formula (NOT the exact material he was using though). For this the gave (or offered) a share in the company (not sure if Ed accepted this).

Now this is where it gets complicated, and reading between the lines of various forum post Ed may well have told them that the bug sculpts as is would be a big problem, and that they should pull them for re-design (too many parts, legs too thin etc), and concentrated on developing skills etc on something more likely to work (I could be wrong on all this, remember)

At this point Defiance seems to have gone their own way trying to get going own their own with production, offering the germans for pre-order, trying to fulfill on the bugs and (probably, I'm guessing here, ignoring Ed's advice on the best way to handle the material)

Since even Ed can't always get the masters/casting right (he's had to redo some of the masters for Tre that didn't work out, and Tre's had to resculpt stuff that wouldn't cast right) beginers using it will probably struggle especially if they won't re-do designs to to fit the casting method.

Again I'll say this is all gueswork and suposition based on what I've read, but probably aproaching the truth

**CptJake**

It would appear the Defiance webstore still accepts orders for all their products. Isn't that nice?

**Theduke07**

I was only looking forward to their female marines but that wasn't even more than a concept

**Shepherd23**

I believe that a great many people are waiting for a decent female infantry model. How no one has made this by now is beyond me. I know that it wont sell billions of sprues, but I do believe they would sell enough to make the set worth while.

And as nice as the AW suit is, 16 Quid is a rich amount for me. That translates to roughly US$24 plus shipping, customs, etc. Ordering from the UK when you live in the US get rather pricey quite fast.

**judgedoug**

AW removes VAT for us US buyers. So it's like GBP13 plus shipping

**kenshin620**

Theduke07 wrote:
I was only looking forward to their female marines but that wasn't even more than a concept

Yup

Those days sure were magical when they first showed this

**thesilverback**

To bad if Defience is going down, had some good ideas and was really looking forward towards the Chinese Imperial Army.

**Shepherd23**

I see this and realize that I should have had my battle eggs half a year ago. That is just not right. Someone needs to get the taser because of this.

**Sean_OBrien**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
For this the gave (or offered) a share in the company (not sure if Ed accepted this).

Probably the absolute worst thing he could have done...assuming as I am that the whole thing goes super critical and explodes (as these things are wont to do).

Receiving a share can give a person access to the potential profits...but it also opens one up to the potential liabilities. This is even more common in a company which is organized like Defiance is likely organized. Since they likely do not have a corporate structure which shields share holders from liabilities outside of the basic protections (which would prevent say...a law suit against you as an individual because a kid stuck a miniature up his nose...but not protect you as an individual for committing wire fraud).

If Ed's share is large enough - he could end up being tossed on the hook for preorder refunds (or at least his portion of it based on his share ownership)...which might be significant based on a lot of the chatter which I have seen. To make it even better - he probably doesn't have a controlling share...so, the chances of being able to make a meaningful change to the actual process may well be out of the question.

Then again - it could just be the pessimism coming through, but I have long come to assume that if something can go wrong...it will. Occasionally, I am pleasantly surprised when the sky doesn't fall though.

**DustGod**

Nope... these guys have had issues since day 1.

too cheap to pay for quality models or quality production... I'm still with the idea that this whole company is a clown show. garbage models.

Have fun pouring money into the clown show or trying to put a positive spin on this wreck.

**Caliginous**

Their concept art was cool - real hardcore sci fi.

Their models were laughable garbage.

**Azazelx**

The bookkeeping seems to be on a par with early-GW days, so Ed is probably safe:

Frothers Unite Forums wrote:
HiveTrygon
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 2637
Location: Frothers
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:03 am Post subject:
anevilgiraffe wrote:
didn't you buy into Defiance or something though?

No. I was given part of the company share freely from Tony as a good will thing but it's like a profit share thing. That's an entirely different story however and atm can't get into all the details with it but no contracts were ever signed on that by me. I've thought about it but never did decide it was right.

http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36589&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=3320

**Kroothawk**

Just in case someone doesn't remember:
This is the former owner of Wargames Factory, that couldn't deliver its stormtroopers for months and finally experienced a hostile takeover by the Chinese manufacturer. Followed by a nasty internet battle between Tony and his former collegues.

**RiTides**

That egg / hardsuit would've been nice... we can dream!

**Earthbeard**

Kroothawk wrote:
Just in case someone doesn't remember:
This is the former owner of Wargames Factory, that couldn't deliver its stormtroopers for months and finally experienced a hostile takeover by the Chinese manufacturer. Followed by a nasty internet battle between Tony and his former collegues.

Indeed, either this guy is the unluckiest or the problem really does and did stem purely from him and his management skills or lack thereof.

I was really looking forward to those Bugs, but after the shots/pics from the few people that receieved them I decided to wait for them to iron out the problems with the casting, seems It'll never be resolved now?

**Shepherd23**

We don't know for sure what is going on, but it really looks bad all around and I have to say, as much as I hoped they would be a viable company, it really doesn't look good right now.

**spaceelf**

Shepherd23 wrote:
We don't know for sure what is going on, but it really looks bad all around and I have to say, as much as I hoped they would be a viable company, it really doesn't look good right now.

Hopefully the removal of their forum is just damage control. Their marines look good. The bugs seemed to have some problems, but did not seem to be as bad as finecast stuff. The worms were nice.

I guess the most useful comments would be from people who placed orders. Is stuff currently shipping? Maybe I will try to place an order and see what happens.

**judgedoug**

I like the Marines, actually; they fit in with my Copplestone future troopers as a good OpFor. I should probably try to find another box just in case they disappear forever.

**kenshin620**

judgedoug wrote:
I like the Marines, actually; they fit in with my Copplestone future troopers as a good OpFor. I should probably try to find another box just in case they disappear forever.

I was about to suggest warstore

And then I noticed, they dont carry them any more. Oh dear

**Kroothawk**

How about this:
Let Defiance Games make the miniatures, the Ex Illis guys design the tabletop system, let the Miece designers do the names, Mantic do the promo pics, Rob Lane do the distribution, AoW Felix do the communication, and GW do the pricing and marketing.
Can't go wrong then

But we should warn Ed

**judgedoug**

And New Wave games be the official stockist!

**BobtheInquisitor**

Kroothawk wrote:
How about this:
Let Defiance Games make the miniatures, the Ex Illis guys design the tabletop system, let the Miece designers do the names, Mantic do the promo pics, Rob Lane do the distribution, AoW Felix do the communication, and GW do the pricing and marketing.
Can't go wrong then
But we should warn Ed

Genius!

Can we get Kevin J. Anderson to write the novel?

**agustin**

Kroothawk wrote:Just in case someone doesn't remember:
This is the former owner of Wargames Factory, that couldn't deliver its stormtroopers for months and finally experienced a hostile takeover by the Chinese manufacturer. Followed by a nasty internet battle between Tony and his former collegues.

As soon as he was booted, WGF started hitting all their deadlines and released a ton of new kits. Lots of people online sided with Tony against the evil, soulless chinese money men, but it looks like the real issue was Tony himself. We now have what can be called a pattern of missed deliveries when he's involved.

**CURNOW**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
How about this:
Let Defiance Games make the miniatures, the Ex Illis guys design the tabletop system, let the Miece designers do the names, Mantic do the promo pics, Rob Lane do the distribution, AoW Felix do the communication, and GW do the pricing and marketing.
Can't go wrong then
But we should warn Ed

Genius!

Can we get Kevin J. Anderson to write the novel?

Can we shoehorn red star one/three stage studios in to there aswell? Lol

**AlexHolker**

agustin wrote:
As soon as he was booted, WGF started hitting all their deadlines and released a ton of new kits. Lots of people online sided with Tony against the evil, soulless chinese money men, but it looks like the real issue was Tony himself. We now have what can be called a pattern of missed deliveries when he's involved.

Tony's explanation was consistent with the facts at the time (that their business partner was dragging their feet to starve Tony out of the company), but so was Ghost Studios', so it was just an our-word-against-theirs thing. But the proof is in the pudding, and Tony's still failing to deliver without their influence.

**Chronepsis**

CURNOW wrote: Can we shoehorn red star one/three stage studios in to there aswell? Lol

Beat me to it