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I have been seeing this pop up now and again, even a bit around my local meta. However, I am not completely sure as to why or what replaced them.

I dont play imperium armies, so I am unsure as to that aspect. From the eldar standpoint, our missile launchers are one of the better buys for a heavy weapon on a wraithlord, wave serpent or falcon. Our submunitions blast is Ap4 and causes pinning, better than the frag missiles of the imperium. We also lack S7 in our codex; no ranged, shooting attack or model has this(except Jain Zar, on the charge...). We either get massed S6 fire or S8 to deal with tough targets and armor. Our only other S8 gun is the brightlance, which is horribly overpriced and only outperforms the EML against Av13/14. Against eldar krak missiles work well to take out our armor(lascannons are reduced to S8 against wave serpents), wraith units, war walkers and the avatar. Things you will likely see in an eldar army these days.

With my tau, I use railguns/missile pods for the missile launcher role. Krak missiles are dangerous as they kill battlesuits with ease; a lynchpin of most tau armies.

I know imperial guard missile launchers are pretty garbage, but normal tac squad marines usually have one. Long fangs spam missile launchers, and dev. squads usually have one. At least that was in 5th, but I still see missile launchers in marine lists.

So why the new found dislike? Av11/12 parking lots and armor walls are far less common now, but Monsterous creatures are on the rise(most have 3+ armor and T6). Missile launchers don't work well against Av13/14 battle tanks, which are becoming more prevelant as well. Foot and horde armies are on the rise, but the frag missile provides an option there. Are they just not performing for their costs anymore? Have they been replaced by autocannons and lascannons? Any imperial armies that still use them en masse?

What are you doing with your lists in 6th? Do you take missile launchers? Even if your army does not use them, do you consider them dangerous if you are playing against them? Have you shelved your missiles for other guns?

48" range, S8 AP3 and can now snap fire on the move or when charged? What's not to love?

I haven't seen any more AV13 and 14 than back in 5th, but way more fliers, massed ML's are great against them, as half are av 10/11 so that odd 6 you roll is usually going to take them down.

If you're not the Space Wolf codex, I'd strongly advise leaving them at home. Imperial Guard in particular shouldn't touch the bloody things.

I'd say they are still viable but no longer the default option for a lot of things, so think about what you are intending to use them against.

There should be an option for they got better, hull points means they can actually glance AV 14 to death. Especially with flak munitions being a possibility.

The IG still should probably not touch them as they are better off with two dedicated weapons. Mortar+Autocannon is the same price and tends to outperform in most respects.

All the other imperials do well with them, space marines especially. Plasma got much better though so the ML compete with plasma in many places.

totally dependent on the cost and the codex. Longfang missile spam is still very effective. Chaos and IG are better with autocannons or lascannons.

If I could take Autocannons on my loyalist Tac Squads as well I would do it outright. I never use the Frag Missile ever and I find it horribly ineffective. I mean it's just a single S4 3" template that in half of the cases scatters so it hits less and with maximum coherency (which most of the people i play with myself included do) it gets the effectiveness of a long ranged Bolter.

I have run my Heavy Bolter the whole time through 5th and it was never that bad that I was tempted to switch it to another heavy weapon and now in 6th with snapshots it has become really nice.

Everytime I play against a person who brought missile launchers I laugh a bit.

Everything I bring is either an AV 14 tank, or a 5pt guardsman.

Go ahead, shoot my tanks. If you can glance me enough times to get through my guardsmen cover saves (go go guardsmen meatshield) I'll give you a cookie.

I have never given anyone a cookie

If you can get them the flakk missle option. Then they are ok.

But other then that they are in some weird middle ground. And people generally dont like to take general purpose weapons.

They do ok at poping armor but for a few more points why not bring a lascannon instead?

They do ok at anti infantry. But if thats what you need why not bring autocannons or heavy bolters or flamers for cheaper?

I play Eldar as well and I LOOOOOOVE Eldar missile launchers. For the exact reasons you listed.

Etched In Pride wrote:
If you can get them the flakk missle option. Then they are ok.

But other then that they are in some weird middle ground. And people generally dont like to take general purpose weapons.

They do ok at poping armor but for a few more points why not bring a lascannon instead?

They do ok at anti infantry. But if thats what you need why not bring autocannons or heavy bolters or flamers for cheaper?

the only codex that can take flakk missile options are too expensive.

for IG and CSM a missile launcher is 5pts more than an autocannon and 5 points less than a lascannon. I just cant see that ever being a spot you want to be.
With flakk they are 5 points MORE than a lascannon, and do only 1 thing better and only marginally better most of the time.

For longfangs though, the lascannon is 15 points more than the missile launcher, making it a steal.

The change to the damage table made them worse in 6th. You are simply worse at popping a transport with that missile launcher in your tac squad. You're far better off paying the points for the lascannon, where you get the +1 strength and +1 to the damage roll.

So unless you get large numbers of missile launchers unusually cheap, leave them at home. Or, if you're running a ton of infantry, you could try those Flakk Missiles. They aren't great, but they are often good enough.

-Matt

I think that missile launchers improved with snap fire/defensive fire.

Plus, getting the frag on deepstriking units, 2/3rds of the time right on target, generally hits to entire enemy squad.

I love em in my tallarn force i run 9 of them in one of my platoons twin linking them is excellent i also use 3 autocannons

Corollax wrote:
If you're not the Space Wolf codex, I'd strongly advise leaving them at home. Imperial Guard in particular shouldn't touch the bloody things.

Also still good on BA devs.

Missile launchers got worse against vehicles in 6th edition for sure. They don't have the volume of fire to get reliable Hull Point kills, nor do they have AP 1/2 for improved damage chart results-- in my experience, their main reliable anti-vehicle use is now to snipe off vehicles that only have one hull point left. Further, missile launchers are worse against Nob Bikers, Attack Bikes, etc. than they once were. However, they are still a very strong weapon against Monstrous Creatures, especially those from Codex: Tyranids.

Perhaps a more pertinent fact is that many of the dedicated missile launcher platforms have become much worse in 6th edition. Long Fangs, for instance, are difficult to justify relative to 120 point autocannon/lascannon Predators, which are now much more resilient.

I think the importance of ap2 has seen a few missile squads be replaced with plasma, I know when I run my BA now, instead of 3 squads of missile DEVS, I'll take 2 and 1 Plasma cannon squad. I still think they have there place in every marine army though, just for their threat range, and versatility.

I chose the "garbage" option and this is why: everytime I consider putting in a missile launcher, there is a better weapon. I don't know about Eldar, but I think this is true for Imperium and CSM.

Str 8 AP 3 Heavy 1 is a horrible profile for antitank in 6th edition. It is extremely inefficient to glance vehicles to death, or even pen and not get a "6" with a weapon with a rate of fire of "1".

The frag missile in my experience has been trash since 2nd edition. The small template does not hit many targets and what it does hit is allowed cover saves. And it is Str 4. It is not good at torrent of wounds, it is not good against cover, its just not good.

Are there cases where the missile launcher is good? Certainly. Tyranids come to mind. But I can't count on that circumstance happening. I have to be as generalist as possible. The missile launcher in theory is generalist, but it doesn't do *either* job well enough to make it into any list.

A round about exception is the typhoon missile launcher on a flyer. Two krak missiles a round against other flyers is quite nice because in that case, glancing to death is pretty efficient because of low armor values and very little that flies has a 2+ save, if anything.

Also, Str 8 no longer overkills bikers of ork or spess mahreen variety, and this is another non-trivial nerf.

The most important point, and only briefly mentioned: The change to the Vehicle Damage Chart and Krak being AP3. Missile Launchers are now viable anti-tank by stripping hull points. And, since they strip hull points instead of explode sh*t, they suck with only one shot.
A lascannon will explode a vehicle twice as often.
A meltagun will do it 3 times as often.

Missiles are flat out worse at anti-tank for their points than, well, than just about everything that is designed for busting tanks per point.

 Brymm wrote:
The most important point, and only briefly mentioned: The change to the Vehicle Damage Chart and Krak being AP3. Missile Launchers are now viable anti-tank by stripping hull points. And, since they strip hull points instead of explode sh*t, they suck with only one shot.
A lascannon will explode a vehicle twice as often.
A meltagun will do it 3 times as often.

Missiles are flat out worse at anti-tank for their points than, well, than just about everything that is designed for busting tanks per point.

I'll give you all but the last one, at least on vanilla Tacs as it is free.

Let's not kid ourselves, missile launchers were ALWAYS crummy. Yes, if you've got fancy eldar rules, or you can take them for ludicrously cheap (like longfangs, or free like tac squads), then you might as well, but they've never been a star weapon.

And in 6th ed, they've only gotten worse. Against infantry, they've still got their small blast, which is still very ho-hum, especially against people who know what displacement means. Against vehicles, their chances of wrecking a vehicle just got cut in HALF. Yes, they can now peel hull points, but they don't do this very well with being only a one-shot-per-turn weapon. If you want to peel hullpoints, anyone who can take missile launchers can also take auto and/or assault cannons instead.

Of course, we're starting to see flakk missiles, and so there is some argument to be made for them being the only weapon that can hit fliers properly, but against most flying targets, I'd just rather stick with my non-skyfire autocannons and lascannons. Especially if the flakk upgrade is going to be so darned expensive.

 Ailaros wrote:
If you want to peel hullpoints, anyone who can take missile launchers can also take auto and/or assault cannons instead.

Let's take a look at the devastator marines in the various codices to see how this statement bears out:
1) Vanilla codex: Nope. No autocannons or assault cannons available.
2) Blood Angels: Nope. Same story.
3) Space Wolves: Still nope, even on the legendary Long Fangs.
4) Dark Angels: Nope. Same story again.
5) Black Templar: No devastator marines available.
6) Grey Knights: Purgation Squads can purchase psycannons for a staggeringly inefficient 40 points per model once they've bought a 20 point Justiciar.
7) Chaos Space Marines: Havocs are a notable exception in that they can take autocannons. Assault cannons are out of the question.

So out of the seven marine codices, only the heretics can take autocannons and none of them get assault cannons. Psycannons might count if you squint.

It's free for the BA, but why not pay for a weapon that does something? Or just not use a heavy and move all my guys?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why did so many people pick "just as good as in 5th", when this is demonstrably untrue on its face? Because they can glance AV 14? They could glance it before and actually stun it and have an effect.

Not only that, a very significant number of T4(5) units are no longer suffering instant death. The Ork codex and CSM codices have tons of units like this.

Well, they got a hit when you consider them as anti-tank since the damage chart has changed a bit.
Against infantry, it is still the same.

The problem is the meta shift. ML were great in the 5th ed 3m meta. Everyone was mech'd up and running MEQ. It's not just the new vehicle damage table, it's a more diverse meta. The game is no longer mostly about opening a rhino and killing MEQ.

Martel732 wrote:
Why did so many people pick "just as good as in 5th", when this is demonstrably untrue on its face? Because they can glance AV 14? They could glance it before and actually stun it and have an effect.

I don’t see as a fact that they are worse. Now I admit I do use One Missile Launcher Long Fang Packs, but in my experience so far they have improved a little.
1] I can now kill a Land Raider with them rather than just cause it to be shaken repeatedly.
2] I can now kill Transports quickly and efficiently rather than watch is just get Shaken repeatedly.
3] They still make Tyranid Warriors and Crisis Suits a waist of points.

Recently I had a game were I was using the Following vs. a Mechanized Marine list
>Long Fang Pack [1x Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannon, 2x Missile Launchers] with an attached Rune Priest with Divination.
>Rifleman Dread
>3x Land Speeders with Heavy Bolters and Typhoon Missile Launchers
>2x Grey Hunters with 2x Plasma Guns

By the second turn I had destroyed 3 Dreads, 2 Razorbacks, Biker Captain, a Land Speeder and I don’t remember how many Marines. Half of the kills were from Glancing to death with Missile Launchers. Back in 5th edition I would have destroyed the Biker Captain and maybe one or two Dreads, everything else would have been sitting there Shaken.

So with the mix of how Hull Points work makes the Missile Launcher great for killing of the AV 10-12 range. Yes Las-Cannons, and Melta are better than the Missile Launcher, but sometimes they are just not an option for whatever reason.
Also the flexibility of being able to fire Flak Missile makes the Missile Launcher a Workhorse, not the Star.

I will note this also might be the result of my local Meta.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why did so many people pick "just as good as in 5th", when this is demonstrably untrue on its face? Because they can glance AV 14? They could glance it before and actually stun it and have an effect.

I don’t see as a fact that they are worse. Now I admit I do use One Missile Launcher Long Fang Packs, but in my experience so far they have improved a little.
1] I can now kill a Land Raider with them rather than just cause it to be shaken repeatedly.
2] I can now kill Transports quickly and efficiently rather than watch is just get Shaken repeatedly.
3] They still make Tyranid Warriors and Crisis Suits a waist of points.

Recently I had a game were I was using the Following vs. a Mechanized Marine list
>Long Fang Pack [1x Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannon, 2x Missile Launchers] with an attached Rune Priest with Divination.
>Rifleman Dread
>3x Land Speeders with Heavy Bolters and Typhoon Missile Launchers
>2x Grey Hunters with 2x Plasma Guns

By the second turn I had destroyed 3 Dreads, 2 Razorbacks, Biker Captain, a Land Speeder and I don’t remember how many Marines. Half of the kills were from Glancing to death with Missile Launchers. Back in 5th edition I would have destroyed the Biker Captain and maybe one or two Dreads, everything else would have been sitting there Shaken.

So with the mix of how Hull Points work makes the Missile Launcher great for killing of the AV 10-12 range. Yes Las-Cannons, and Melta are better than the Missile Launcher, but sometimes they are just not an option for whatever reason.
Also the flexibility of being able to fire Flak Missile makes the Missile Launcher a Workhorse, not the Star.

I will note this also might be the result of my local Meta.

I feel this example only shows how, yes, missile launchers are great against mechanized marines. Yes, this is true. I have not been losing to too many mechanized marines lately, its been daemons, necrons, daemons, necrons, grey knights, daemons, necrons, grey knights, and guard.
Missile Launchers can be good, but unless they are free or nearly free, there is usually a way better option as an anti-tank weapon (lascannon) or anti-transportweapon (autocannon/assault cannon) to choose.

 Brymm wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Said Stuff

Said Stuff

I feel this example only shows how, yes, missile launchers are great against mechanized marines. Yes, this is true. I have not been losing to too many mechanized marines lately, its been daemons, necrons, daemons, necrons, grey knights, daemons, necrons, grey knights, and guard.
Missile Launchers can be good, but unless they are free or nearly free, there is usually a way better option as an anti-tank weapon (lascannon) or anti-transportweapon (autocannon/assault cannon) to choose.

I completely agree about there is better. Personally I prefer Plasma Cannons and Heavy Bolters. However I do not feel that Missile Launchers have gotten worse. I actually feel they got a little better and most others Weapons got A LOT Better.

My Land Speeder Typhoons went from Anti-Infantry in 5th to Anti-Light Armor in 6th. Because 9 Heavy Bolter Shots and 6 Missile Launcher Shots generally lets me kill off AV11 with ease.

To me the weapons that got the Biggest Boost was the Heavy Bolter, but that discussion should be for another thread.

I thought we were talking about missile launchers, not typhoon missile launchers. A rate of fire "2" weapon on fast platform is completely different than a heavy "1" on a foot slogger. It's also a hell of a lot more expensive, so it should be better.

Also, who let's themselves get shot over and over by typhoon speeders? Oh yeah, people without autocannons and lascannons to fire back at them. It's not like typhoon speeders aren't just about the juiciest target ever at 80+ pts and AV 10.