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Corollax wrote:So out of the seven marine codices, only the heretics can take autocannons and none of them get assault cannons.

... You're kidding, right?

It's not like tactical terminators or razorbacks or baal predetors or dreadnoughts or land raiders or land speeders can take assault cannons, or that marines (allied or otherwise) can take rifleman dreads...

Missile launchers can't be the 'big losers', because the 'big losers' are already Rhinos...

 Ailaros wrote:

Corollax wrote:So out of the seven marine codices, only the heretics can take autocannons and none of them get assault cannons.

... You're kidding, right?

It's not like tactical terminators or razorbacks or baal predetors or dreadnoughts or land raiders or land speeders can take assault cannons, or that marines (allied or otherwise) can take rifleman dreads...

I think he was just pointing out that you can't take Autocannons or Assault cannon on normal Powered Armor troops (tactical squads, sternguard), not that you can't take them at all.

However, I still like missile launcher devastator squads on my crimson fists lists. My Chaos Havocs will be toting Forge World's Autocannons, though!

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Missile launchers can't be the 'big losers', because the 'big losers' are already Rhinos...

This is the point I was trying to make.

But autocannons frag rhinos almost twice as fast. And at the same range. And generate double the wounds vs infantry. The rhino taking a hit does not make the missile launcher better. It has to be compared to the other weapons available. Just because Space Marine devastators can't take autocannons does not make the missile launcher good. It makes devastators suck.

MLs and Melta lost in 6th. While they still have their role, their not as critical as they were in 5th.

ACs and PGs won in 6th. Changes to rapid fire rules, combined with hull points made these better weapons.

Melta may have lost a bit, but its still the weapon of choice against AV 13 and AV 14. And it penetrates the now-popular 2+ armor. Multimeltas are particularly good because they have the range to kite around things like assault terminators and monstrous foot sloggers.

Missile Launchers are like Marines: A Jack of Trades, Master of None.
I don’t need Mathhammer to tell me witch weapon is better, the Missile Launcher is like a .45 ACP. It will not perform the best at the range, but it will probably have the Highest and Lowest Scores.

Nothing does the same number of jobs as the Missile Launcher, but all of them do their job better. The closest to it profile is the Plasma Cannon, but if a monolith or a Land Raider Shows up you are hosed. Nothing beats it in range though the Las-Cannon is the same range, but if that Nid Swarm shoes up you are screwed.

6th though has given it an ability it has not had since 1st edition, the ability to kill a Land Raider. I know the odds are against it happening, but it could happen. With 4 Missile you have a chance of scoring a HP every turn, but you have a better chance of killing it before it gets within range of your Multi-Meltas let alone the MM Sweet Spot than in 5th.

I am not saying it got a whole lot better in 6th, but it did not get worse.

Martel732 wrote:
Melta may have lost a bit, but its still the weapon of choice against AV 13 and AV 14. And it penetrates the now-popular 2+ armor. Multimeltas are particularly good because they have the range to kite around things like assault terminators and monstrous foot sloggers.

Your right on the AV13/14 point. We are starting to see a resurgance of those vehicles since more people are bringing PGs and ACs.
Smart opponents won't let you 'kite' anything around, however. The key is that players don't have aggro charts like MMO mobs. If there is a bike that's moving around shooting my assault units, Ill just ignore it and assault something else. Units don't have 'taunt' buttons in this game.

For any assault unit to be viable in today's meta, you need to have a delivery system. The days of the 10 TH/SS termies rushing across the board are dead. The days of orks rushing up and assaulting you are dead.

In today's meta, the assault units are fast, or can be delievered to where they need to be. A great example of this would be Necron wraiths. They can move 12" and ignore cover -- simply put their getting into assault with what they want to.

Another example of this would be bloodcrushers. These are slow, but you deep strike them near multiple enemy units so its impossible for all the enemy to get away from them. They also have such a large footprint on the board its nearly impossible to get far enough away from their area of influence.

A picture is worth 1000 words. This is from a game earlier this year. Notice how I played my bloodcrushers so they can effect a variety of different units. I can go after the demolisher, the predators, or the marines next to the bloodcrushers. There was no way he could kite them. They had to many targets of oppertunity due to the insanely large footprint 9 of those 60mm bases have.

I am not saying it got a whole lot better in 6th, but it did not get worse.

This. Missiles didn't get worse, it's just that everything else got better. Armies like Space Wolves and Eldar still benefit from them because of special rules or ease of spamming. Most other armies, however, can now fill this role with autocannons, assault cannons, las etc.

This to me, is a matter of philosophy I guess. Heavy weapons, to me, are there to eliminate targets that my S4 marines and S4 boltguns can't deal with.

I don't want a jack of all trades because by this philosophy, the frag missile is worthless. I want specialization. Because I have a huge amount of S4 available to me as a marine player. I want AV 14 and AV 13 to go away. And wounds that penetrate 2+ armor.

Everyone discounts the lascannon until they run into the vindicator spam list, which is certainly viable now. Your krak missiles will bounce too much to be effective and melta is a suicide mission. I have never regretted switching out every missile launcher slot for a lascannon in 6th. Ever.

Because the "anti-horde" function of the frag missile sucks. For hordes, meet my assault marines and fragnoughts. The fragnought alone can kill more models in a single turn than frag devs over the course of two or three turns. This is the BA answer.

For vanilla, I can get the much more point efficient thunderfire cannon which has the option to ignore cover, or just rely on my huge boltgun count for anti-horde. Being able to back up and fire bolters out to 24" is such a huge boost for the vanilla marines.

Also, any marine list has the option to bring multiple template weapons which are all assault and ignore cover as well. These are far superior for anti-horde work than frag missiles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Melta may have lost a bit, but its still the weapon of choice against AV 13 and AV 14. And it penetrates the now-popular 2+ armor. Multimeltas are particularly good because they have the range to kite around things like assault terminators and monstrous foot sloggers.

Your right on the AV13/14 point. We are starting to see a resurgance of those vehicles since more people are bringing PGs and ACs.
Smart opponents won't let you 'kite' anything around, however. The key is that players don't have aggro charts like MMO mobs. If there is a bike that's moving around shooting my assault units, Ill just ignore it and assault something else. Units don't have 'taunt' buttons in this game.

For any assault unit to be viable in today's meta, you need to have a delivery system. The days of the 10 TH/SS termies rushing across the board are dead. The days of orks rushing up and assaulting you are dead.

In today's meta, the assault units are fast, or can be delievered to where they need to be. A great example of this would be Necron wraiths. They can move 12" and ignore cover -- simply put their getting into assault with what they want to.

Another example of this would be bloodcrushers. These are slow, but you deep strike them near multiple enemy units so its impossible for all the enemy to get away from them. They also have such a large footprint on the board its nearly impossible to get far enough away from their area of influence.

A picture is worth 1000 words. This is from a game earlier this year. Notice how I played my bloodcrushers so they can effect a variety of different units. I can go after the demolisher, the predators, or the marines next to the bloodcrushers. There was no way he could kite them. They had to many targets of oppertunity due to the insanely large footprint 9 of those 60mm bases have.

Landspeeders and attack bike bikes with multimeltas certainly can kite around assault terminators after the LR is fragged. They can also kite around bloodcrushers. I guess this is one of the few advantages of a pure BA army. I can get the hell away from deep strikers and shoot them lots at the same time! The kiting, however, is a tertiary consideration for all the reasons you mentioned. But elimination of AV 13/AV 14 is a primary consideration.

I might also add that deep striking that close to the enemy can end very, very badly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

omerakk wrote:

I am not saying it got a whole lot better in 6th, but it did not get worse.

This. Missiles didn't get worse, it's just that everything else got better. Armies like Space Wolves and Eldar still benefit from them because of special rules or ease of spamming. Most other armies, however, can now fill this role with autocannons, assault cannons, las etc.

Getting worse relative to other weapons is the definition of being a "big loser" of heavy weapons. In fact, the change to the vehicle damage table is non-trivial for the missile launcher because it halves their chance of a kill on a pen. That sucks big time. You basically have to play the HP stripping game with krak missiles, which is insane with a ROF 1 weapon.

Missile Launchers are the same as they've always been, a decent generalist weapon that is only worth it when you can get it either for free or for dirt cheap. If you can get them cheap, and don't have a specific hole that you desperately need patching, take them, but otherwise take a more specialized weapon.

Martel732 wrote:
Said Good Stuff

I agree, i run a 2000 Space Marine gunline with 36 Plasma Weapons, mostly Combi-Plasmas, but there are 15 Plasma Connons it it. The only reson I feel safe with it it there are no AV14/14/14 vehicles in my local Meta [Actualy there are some AV14/14/14 Vehicels, but they are mine].
My list in order of "Devistor" Weapons are:
1] Plsama Cannon
2] Heavy Bolter
3] Las-Cannon
4] Multi-Melta
5] Misslie Launcher

Most of this personal tase, but it has been this way since 3rd Edition. If i could get Auto Cannons they would take the #2 or #3 spot.

I also think things will change the moment Missile Lauchers are able to take Flakk Missile.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Said Good Stuff

I agree, i run a 2000 Space Marine gunline with 36 Plasma Weapons, mostly Combi-Plasmas, but there are 15 Plasma Connons it it. The only reson I feel safe with it it there are no AV14/14/14 vehicles in my local Meta [Actualy there are some AV14/14/14 Vehicels, but they are mine].
My list in order of "Devistor" Weapons are:
1] Plsama Cannon
2] Heavy Bolter
3] Las-Cannon
4] Multi-Melta
5] Misslie Launcher

Most of this personal tase, but it has been this way since 3rd Edition. If i could get Auto Cannons they would take the #2 or #3 spot.

I also think things will change the moment Missile Lauchers are able to take Flakk Missile.

Dark Angel missile launchers might be some better, but the upgrade costs points, and S7 AP4 single shot is not wowing me. Skytryrants all over the world laugh at your flakk missiles, as do vendettas and storm ravens.

I'm not a big fan of the plasma cannon, but I'll take them all day over MLs. They command respect. The payoff for when PCs work right is huge. Terminator squads can be devastated! Light vehicle squadrons melt! The payoff for krak missiles? Oh yeah, I get to strip hull points. One at a time. Yay. Or I get to bounce off a TEQ. Yay. Just because I'm not into high risk high reward doesn't make the PC not scary. The ML is not scary at all.

I think they are as good as they ever were. The versatility remains and with HP they can glance to death better.

If versatility results in ineffectiveness, then versatility becomes an undesirable trait. 6th edition battles can move quite quickly, and you don't usually have the luxury of stripping HP one at a time with a single shot weapon. By the time the LR is even worried about HP, its dumped terminator death all over you. Much less multiple LR lists.

Oh, and you can't back up and fire your krak missiles either. You stand there as terminator death gets closer. If your answer is to this is melta, then I would agree with you. Why even have the ML then as "heavy support"?

 ansacs wrote:
The IG still should probably not touch them as they are better off with two dedicated weapons. Mortar+Autocannon is the same price and tends to outperform in most respects.

Wait, I thought the only thing worst than IG MLs were IG mortars?

 Enigwolf wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
The IG still should probably not touch them as they are better off with two dedicated weapons. Mortar+Autocannon is the same price and tends to outperform in most respects.

Wait, I thought the only thing worst than IG MLs were IG mortars?

Apparently, you have never met the IG grenade launcher.

One Mortar is junk, a bunch is Great especially when mixed with Grenade Launchers.

Individually on any one shot, Missile Launchers are less effective due to the changes to the vehicle damage chart. However, en-masse, they are significantly more effective due to the HP mechanic hamfisted onto vehicles. In terms of the average number of missiles you need to pump into a vehicle to kill it, you need significantly fewer, so they won in that respect.

However, relative to other weapons, they did lose out. Lascannons got all the benefit of HP's without losing any of their damage chart effectiveness. Autocannons against most light/medium vehicles are generally more effective through HP infliction, as, for example, you'll only need 9 BS3 autocannons firing 18 shots to kill off an AV12 vehicle through HP loss as opposed to a Missile Launcher's average of 12.

So yeah, relative to other weapons, Missile Launchers lost out. Relative to their 5th edition usefulness, as with pretty much all weapons, en-masse they are significantly more effective.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Individually on any one shot, Missile Launchers are less effective due to the changes to the vehicle damage chart. However, en-masse, they are significantly more effective due to the HP mechanic hamfisted onto vehicles. In terms of the average number of missiles you need to pump into a vehicle to kill it, you need significantly fewer, so they won in that respect.

However, relative to other weapons, they did lose out. Lascannons got all the benefit of HP's without losing any of their damage chart effectiveness. Autocannons against most light/medium vehicles are generally more effective through HP infliction, as, for example, you'll only need 9 BS3 autocannons firing 18 shots to kill off an AV12 vehicle through HP loss as opposed to a Missile Launcher's average of 12.

So yeah, relative to other weapons, Missile Launchers lost out. Relative to their 5th edition usefulness, as with pretty much all weapons, en-masse they are significantly more effective.

This post clarifies what people are conflating. Just because vehicles got the hull point mechanic, does not instantly make the ML good. If one wants to exploit the HP mechanic, you want autocannons. For quality shots, its the lascannon. There really isn't an AV where the missile launcher has a sweet spot vs those two alternative. Yes, I know devastators can't take autocannons, but that's not the autocannons' fault. It's still better for the playing the glancing game.

The whole point of the ML is that *it has no one sweet spot*.

Yes, in a perfect game, we'd have the right tool for the right job, every time we wanted to shoot something. I don't know about the rest of you, but for me, if my game's going perfectly -- I'm probably going to win easily.

When my back is against the wall though -- in a close game, or one when I'm losing -- you can bet that there will be times when I don't have the right tool for the job. At that point, sometimes, the second best tool for EVERY job can be a lifesaver. And that's the missile launcher. Because there's no unit in the game that it can't hurt.

Just because a tool isn't the second best doesn't make it a good tool. If you're stuck between using an ice cream scoop or a chef's knife to loosen lug nuts, that doesn't mean that a knife is good for loosening lug nuts, it means you should have packed a tire iron in the first place.

I have to say, the OP's avatar is extremely annoying, it's big enough to move all the text boxes over and require me to scroll.

Anyway for me to fix that?

But the ML doesn't hurt anything enough to swing a game. If I'm in a hole, I need a big melta shot or lucky lascannon one shot-one kill.

Martel732 wrote:
I thought we were talking about missile launchers, not typhoon missile launchers. A rate of fire "2" weapon on fast platform is completely different than a heavy "1" on a foot slogger. It's also a hell of a lot more expensive, so it should be better.

Also, who let's themselves get shot over and over by typhoon speeders? Oh yeah, people without autocannons and lascannons to fire back at them. It's not like typhoon speeders aren't just about the juiciest target ever at 80+ pts and AV 10.

A. DA cant get tml on landspeeders for 75
B. they can jink
C who would waste a lascannon on a bumper car
D. when would you waste a autocannon just to maybe kill one little bumper car
E. if your firing a lascannon at it there is alot of factors that could make the shot useless i.e. missing, rolling a one to glance, not making it go boom, it jinking, the fact that there is probably gonna be more right behind it
F. who in their right mind wouldn't take out the lascannons/autocannons with their tml's

MLs didnt get worse, heck they got better. its just that PG and lascannons got a bigger boost with the new vehicle damage table.

 A GumyBear wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I thought we were talking about missile launchers, not typhoon missile launchers. A rate of fire "2" weapon on fast platform is completely different than a heavy "1" on a foot slogger. It's also a hell of a lot more expensive, so it should be better.

Also, who let's themselves get shot over and over by typhoon speeders? Oh yeah, people without autocannons and lascannons to fire back at them. It's not like typhoon speeders aren't just about the juiciest target ever at 80+ pts and AV 10.

A. DA cant get tml on landspeeders for 75

Until the 5th, atleast >.>

B. they can jink

5+ Save is only saving 1/3 shots. I use speeders, but they are made out of paper. A decent amount of anti tank fire thrown at them is going to ruin their day.

C who would waste a lascannon on a bumper car

Depends on their threat to ones army compared to other things. If the Speeders are in a Squad, they are a large threat. If they are a singleton, it might be worth shooting the lascannon just to take out the annoyance.

D. when would you waste a autocannon just to maybe kill one little bumper car

Because an Autocannon's job is to kill Light Vehicles, which the Landspeeder is almost the definition of.

E. if your firing a lascannon at it there is alot of factors that could make the shot useless i.e. missing, rolling a one to glance, not making it go boom, it jinking, the fact that there is probably gonna be more right behind it

If it was going to miss, it was going to miss on another target anyways. 1/6 chance to glance is still a 5/6 chance to pen. There's a 1/3 chance he'll jink it, so that means there's about a 67% chance your 84% chance pen will get through. If there's more than one speeder, it's an even of a target to shoot at.

F. who in their right mind wouldn't take out the lascannons/autocannons with their tml's

A Lascannon buried in the back of a squad in a ruin or Aegis Line isn't going to get taken out by a Speeder in one, or even two turns.

Blobbed Guardsmen will have more than enough guns in there to take out an entire speeder squadron in one go.

One of my first priorities is when facing enemy typhoon speeders is to take them out. They can do serious damage if you ignore them, and it makes me smile a bit when people do.

Typhoon speeders cost so many points that's its quite efficient to shoot lascannons at them. It's a high percentage shot, and with only 2HP, the guaranteed hull damage if the shot gets through is nice. Granted, I'd rather shoot autocannons at them, but with auto/las preds I can shoot both.

My AV 13 auto/las pred doesn't much care about your krak missiles. Since my range is huge, I can keep my AV 13 facing you for most of the battle, unlike a vindicator or a Baal. If you are shooting my AV 13 with krak missiles, I'm coming out ahead.

Didn't 4 ML at BS4 have like .4 chance to kill a rhino in 5th? Like without cover? They were well liked because they seemed versatile and they added reasonably priced reach and the ability to bother blobs to your core of melta spam.

4 x .66 x .5 x .33 to blurst av11? A bit better if you are happy to just immobilize.


Armies with BS3 dun like it so much, but usually they have autocannons and scatter caster type things to make that work and were exciting against infantry and for stunning.

You guys shouldn't expect too much from 4 guns on a general basis, unless they are like pretty expensive. Being able to throw around a decent amount of str8+ shots at range is pretty helful though, and I think if we see a rise in MCs it'll be decen.

Speeders are fragile but Templars get cyclones the way you'd want them.