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Been playing xcom alot lately but since it was new years I decided to give it a rest and go find a game. Called a few of my buddies and found a game. Then a friend of a friend showed up and I got paired with some guy that goes to college with one of our regulars. New opponent, new year, sounds fun. Well we are unfamiliar opponents so we stick the rule book, typically with the regulars we ignore stupid crap, like the mysterious forest and random lakes, etc. Anyhow he ends up wandering into the Brainleaf fronds. With a unit of fairly nasty assault terminators and two characters and fails his test. At this point he has 7 models and and splits them into 1LC-1TH-1Char, 2TH-1LC-1Char. He rolls and ends up getting the 2TH group and then a TH termie lashs out at the group and ends up killing 5 of his buddies on of them being an IC. He is very unhappy at this point and complains about the random rules and says that the split isn't even with an odd number and yadda yadda yadda its not an equal chance. He is correct, so far his math is good. I ask if he has a counter proposal and he suggests he rolls 2d6 and just assign each one a number from 2-8 and re-roll the 9-12. I tell him thats not a good idea that numbers 6,7,8 will invariably get picked more often and he doesn't seem to understand the concept. I explain dice rolls stats in a nutshell, he still persists, so I offer to let him redo it if i can assign the numbers. I give the TH termies 6,7 and 8. Sure enough he rolls a 6. This time on the number of attacks its only 4 instead of 6 (his first roll hosed him good). The TH term delivers and kills all his buddies so its just him and 2 characters at this point. The guy is obviously upset, but I am not sure how to explain his folly. In the end I tell him random terrain is stupid and we should just ignore it and he can put his terminators back so we can continue the game. I am hoping he looks up a die rolling chart or some visual illustration before he plays again so he understands not all numbers are equal when rolling 2d6.

Gotta love it. :-P But what can you do.
personally i hate it when people think that if they get re roll armor saves and i make them reroll successful what not saves that they roll once then re roll everything and then reroll all. those people should be beaten. Why not roll once with no rerolls so much faster and easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotta love it. :-P But what can you do.
personally i hate it when people think that if they get re roll armor saves and i make them reroll successful what not saves that they roll once then re roll everything and then reroll all. those people should be beaten. Why not roll once with no rerolls so much faster and easy.

Some people don't get into statistical methematics, but still want to enjoy a hobby about painting army men and pushing them around the table.

Some people play the hobby for different reasons. No need to act smug about knowing more about statistical maths.

I once got in a discussion online - not related to WH40k - where the other guy insisted that if there were two possible outcomes to something, that each had a 50-50 chance.

I failed to convince him otherwise, but I did think of a good example a few months later while trying to fall asleep. I could've said, "If I hold a penny in the air and let go, there are two possible outcomes. First, it will fall to the floor. Second, it will remain in the air. By your logic, there is a 50-50 chance of each of those."

Not really a math one, but it has to do with probabilities.

Edit: As I recall, the subject at hand had to do with something happening versus not happening. I don't remember what it was.

It's always 50/50. It either happens or it doesn't.

Still watching termies get mulched like that is lame but i mean he should have been aware of the risks.

Imo you don't need to know the exact chances for stuff but you should have a good idea. I mean everyone should be able to see the worste case scenario.

 Fafnir wrote:
It's always 50/50. It either happens or it doesn't.

. . .

On 2d6, what are the odds of rolling a 2, versus not rolling a 2?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
It's always 50/50. It either happens or it doesn't.

. . .

On 2d6, what are the odds of rolling a 2, versus not rolling a 2?

50/50, it either happens or it doesn't.

A bigger pet peeve of mine is 'math'

It derives from Mathematics, a catchall term and by definition a pluralistic one.

But no, Americans for some reason never include the extra s.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
It's always 50/50. It either happens or it doesn't.

. . .

On 2d6, what are the odds of rolling a 2, versus not rolling a 2?

50/50, it either happens or it doesn't.

. . .

Bro... Sis... Inanimate machine... Computer-using kitty-cat... Whatever.

I'd probably be enraged right now if I weren't so darned sure you were trying to annoy me.

Because you are trying to annoy me, I am going to hug the everloving gak out of you. Actually, in this case, it might be trying to hug the everloving gak into you... not really sure how it works.

:: tackles and hugs, then noms on your hair or scalp or case or head fur or whatever ::

MarsNZ wrote:
A bigger pet peeve of mine is 'math'

It derives from Mathematics, a catchall term and by definition a pluralistic one.

But no, Americans for some reason never include the extra s.

Canadians too.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
It's always 50/50. It either happens or it doesn't.

. . .

On 2d6, what are the odds of rolling a 2, versus not rolling a 2?

50/50, it either happens or it doesn't.

Funny troll is funny.

The sad thing is, we've got gaming Poe's law in action here, because who can tell the difference if someone is joking, or actually dumb enough to believe something like that.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
It's always 50/50. It either happens or it doesn't.

. . .

On 2d6, what are the odds of rolling a 2, versus not rolling a 2?

50/50, it either happens or it doesn't.

fry.jpg

MarsNZ wrote:A bigger pet peeve of mine is 'math'

It derives from Mathematics, a catchall term and by definition a pluralistic one.

But no, Americans for some reason never include the extra s.

We are saving all those unnecessary "S"s for the coming alphabet famine of 2016. When America (Canada too) will be the only country(ies) on Earth that will be able to buy Slurpees.

Bookwrack wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
It's always 50/50. It either happens or it doesn't.

. . .

On 2d6, what are the odds of rolling a 2, versus not rolling a 2?

50/50, it either happens or it doesn't.

Funny troll is funny.

The sad thing is, we've got gaming Poe's law in action here, because who can tell the difference if someone is joking, or actually dumb enough to believe something like that.

Doesn't matter I legitimately lol'd. An as someone that is bad with math I enjoy seeing smug math types knocked down a peg.

I pride myself on (amongst other things) my skill with maths - in fact I used to be in a B.Math. So reading this thread has made my head hurt.

This game isn't about math(s). If he wants to play, I don't think his educational background is overly important, as long as he can preform the basic arithmetic to add up the points in his army. The fact that he can't figure out statistics isn't something to be upset over. Just take it as an advantage that you know a bit more about how your dice are likely to behave and run with it rather than giving him an impromptu math lesson in the middle of the game.

Some people are natrually not good at maths, get over it and stop acting smug about it.

I agree with GimbleMuggernaught's post, pretty much summed up my thoughts.

i play 40k. doesn't affect my skills. i get A's in math 'math A ' but i do well in other subjects as well.

I try to stay away from the "mathhammer". If I need something to shoot or assault something. I look around, pick one and use it.

I have a friend who always ALWAYS says something along the lines of, "You were statistically more likely to get more wounds with X unit.."

Just a game to me still.

 g0atsticks wrote:
I try to stay away from the "mathhammer". If I need something to shoot or assault something. I look around, pick one and use it.

I have a friend who always ALWAYS says something along the lines of, "You were statistically more likely to get more wounds with X unit.."

Just a game to me still.

Please understand, that some people enjoy the optimization aspect of gameplay. It may just be a game to your friend as well, who enjoys the game in a different way.

Well, I know veteran players who roll dice to get (approximate) average numbers. Experimental math works.

there is difference between training your calculative capabilities and playing a fun game. If you are trying too hard to win to bypass your goal - having fun.

 HumeyKillar wrote:
there is difference between training your calculative capabilities and playing a fun game. If you are trying too hard to win to bypass your goal - having fun.

Once again, different people have different ideals of what they find to be fun or enjoyable.

I remember, back in my Armored Core (RIP) days, I'd spend hours comparing the tiniest statistics in order to make my ultimate loadout. Hell, I spent a considerable amount of time testing out and analyzing little things like 'bullet speed and spread in comparison to individual body part stability,' or 'impact of extra weight on top speed' and ended up even writing small articles on those subjects. And I had fun doing it. I was working out the tiniest minutiae in order to improve my understanding and competence of the system, and to improve my ability to win, and that was how I had fun with the game. I do that for a lot of games. Obviously, not everyone's going to find that interesting, let alone fun. But some people do. How can you possibly be justified in judging people or feeling morally superior for enjoying something in a different way?

My issue with math and 40k is when people bemoan their bad or good luck without knowing the percentages. On some occasions I actually calculated the percentage for them to assuage feasts of cheating (aka there is no way your 1 guy made that many saves, even on a 2+ without bum dice! Until I showed the actual math, and then he realized oh that's no so bad).

That said, I then bemoan my bad luck BECAUSE I know the percentages, which is no better I imagine. "4 failed saves on termies from 12 shots total! That is insane! My calculations and plans are all for naught, why do I even pay for termies!"

Really? A thread mocking someone who likes toy soldiers but can't do maths as well as others?

I got less mocking and more frustration from the op. For example, someone who is capable of playing 40k and memorizing the rules is capable of 40k level math if given the chance and will. Also, how to randomize models by using a combination of d6 rolls is not difficult, but perhaps not intuitive, and a stubborn reluctance to crunch numbers to do it right because of a fear of math is downright lazy.

Kind of like overdrawing your account. The penalties are real, the math involved simple, the effort low, and yet people rack up hundreds of dollars in fees because they are lazy. I am guilty of this too, but not recently and once is enough to whip me back into shape for a long time. Some others are just habitual though, and make excuses instead of an effort to improve.

Ahhhhhh Maths, my greatest enemy to date...

I'm pretty sure that Maths is actually the Joker from Batman in disguise trying to troll me...

 Fafnir wrote:

 g0atsticks wrote:
I try to stay away from the "mathhammer". If I need something to shoot or assault something. I look around, pick one and use it.

I have a friend who always ALWAYS says something along the lines of, "You were statistically more likely to get more wounds with X unit.."

Just a game to me still.

Please understand, that some people enjoy the optimization aspect of gameplay. It may just be a game to your friend as well, who enjoys the game in a different way.

QFT, many people enjoy the ability to optimize and make tactically correct decisions, and yes it was more sadness, and frustration then mocking. The math in this game is realitively simple stats. We aren't doing anything advanced in this game.

Im the kind of guy who runs numbers during games. I (sometimes) work out the chances unit X has over Unit Y at destroying unit Z. Sometimes i drive myself mental.

I am naturally gifted at maths. I actually enjoy mathematical puzzles. When I am playing Blood Bowl, I will quickly do the maths in my head to see whether I should dodge away for the TD, or blitz through them... In 40k, if I have units A and B and the opposition has units X and Y, I will quickly do the maths to see which unit to use first, in the hope that they can wipe out unit X if that is a priority, and then hope that my other unit can move on to the non-priority unit... etc etc...

For me, maths is fun. However, I'll still pick fluffy units over the most effective ones. I also find most of the mathhammer arguments on here dull, as there are too many people who simple don't understand statistics, so the arguments get bogged down. Making a mistake is one thing, but lots of people here simply don't understand the fundamentals and arguing with them is dull.

It doesn't seem like 'mathhammer' to me to understand that when rolling two D6 there are 36 combinations that can occur, only one of those is makes 12 but six of them add up to make 7. That's simple probability and easily demonstrated.


The thing that irks me most isn't a poor understanding of maths but the way some people think probability means they are 'owed' some sort of outcome. People who that that if they rolled a 1, then the next roll is more likely to be a 6 to 'even it out'. How the feth can you be so dumb? Probability is not a mechanism by which one event influences another to make sure that some universal average is achieved. So you toss a coin once and you get heads. That has no bearing on the next result, you sure as hell don't have an increased chance of getting a tails.

Arguing with such illogical people is a waste of time, like people convinced that blowing on their dice actually makes them roll higher. Cue someone to come along and say "but I find it works for me". No it doesn't, you're just falling into traps such as the gambler's fallacy and confirmation bias.