Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What happens first, the roll for Instant Death from force weapons or the FNP roll? A buddy and I were talking about a game between Draigo and 20 Paladins against 2 Warbosses and 20 Nob Bikers and that ruling would play a big part.

It's a bit muddled in the mixture.

There's argument as always as to which way this one gos.

Two possibilities:
1). You allow Force Weapons to be activated first, thus negating FNP. This exact interpretation breaks rules when applying it to other "unsaved wound" mechanics like Entropic Strike and therefore cannot be correct.

2). You allow FNP to be rolled first. There are no rules conflicts or broken rules.

You should always strive not to use an interpretation that breaks rules.

Agreed with rigled however if one wound goes through and the force weapons get activated then I would say no fnp after that point, for that round of combat at least

feel no pain is NOT A SAVE this has been covered in the FAQ, that is why you can use it to feel no pain on perils of the warp

also, the FAQ specifically adresses instant death vs feel no pain

from the FAQ
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.


you can only make a feel no pain roll on an unsaved wound, so its too late to negate the instant death conferred by force weapons

so since all unsaved wounds from force weapons inflict instant death, feel no pain is NOT a save, and you make the test immediately after an unsaved wound, you do NOT get feel no pain against the instant death caused by activated force weapons...

or against 2x str instant death of course

Ub3rb3n wrote:
Agreed with rigled however if one wound goes through and the force weapons get activated then I would say no fnp after that point, for that round of combat at least

Except that can not happen.

As Rig pointed out If you allow activation before FNP there are several other rules broken and

rigeld2 wrote:This exact interpretation breaks rules when applying it to other "unsaved wound" mechanics like Entropic Strike and therefore cannot be correct.

But if you allow FNP to be rolled first. There are no rules conflicts or broken rules.

@easysauce Read the quote of Rig as to why that way breaks mechanics like Entropic Strike and therefore can not be correct.

easysauce wrote:
feel no pain is NOT A SAVE

We know this is true, however FNP does create a saved wound and to trigger something off of a saved wound is breaking rules.

it is not a saved wound, it is an IGNORED wound,

big difference,

feel no pain is NOT a save, so wounds that came before the feel no pain roll are UNSAVED, but wounds ignored by FNP are ignored

main rule book even says this EXPLICITY "feel no pain can not be used against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death"pg 35

it specifically says as well, "the wound is DISCOUNTED, treat it as having been saved" but is not actually saved pg 35

cannot have it both ways, the FAQ allowance for it to be used against perils of the warp further backs up the fact that it is not a save, hence is not counted for unsaved wounds
by you're "logic" a t4 model hit by a str 8 weapon still gets feel no pain, since the wound isnt "unsaved" till after it fails the feel no pain rule


Automatically Appended Next Post:
not to mention the only circumstance feel no pain can be used is on an unsaved wound... so if the wound was not unsaved, you cannot use feel no pain anyway,
"when a model with this special rule SUFFERS AN UNSAVED WOUND, it can make a special feel no pain roll"pg 35
so again, you are trying to have it both ways, by saying it IS an unsaved wound so you get a feel no pain roll, but you are also saying it is NOT an unsaved wound so you get your feel no pain despite the unsaved wound causing instant death.

that is just wrong, since the FNP can only be used on unsaved wounds, it has already suffered the unsaved wound, and if instant death applies to that unsaved wound, the model dies, with no FNP roll no more FAQ needed, anyone trying to use FNP on unsaved wounds causing instant death, from any source, is cheating

easysauce wrote:
it is not a saved wound, it is an IGNORED wound,

Read the 6th edition rule book please.

No son, calm down. If you pass FNP it is not an ignored wound, it is a wound that is treated as if it had been saved. Slightly different and it is no longer an unsaved wound either way.

Also I haven't read the GK codex in much detail so there may be other issues but if a Force weapon isn't activated the wound isn't ID so there is no reason to ignore FnP. The long story is that you have 2 rules going off at the same time and it is messy. Strictly I believe the rulebook says something along the lines of in cases where rules timing conflicts the player who's turn it is gets to choose but I may be wrong. Problem is that creates situations where on my turn my Gk are deadly but in yours they aren't so great.

easysauce wrote:
it is not a saved wound, it is an IGNORED wound,

big difference,

feel no pain is NOT a save, so wounds that came before the feel no pain roll are UNSAVED, but wounds ignored by FNP are ignored

main rule book even says this EXPLICITY "feel no pain can not be used against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death"pg 35

it specifically says as well, "the wound is DISCOUNTED, treat it as having been saved" but is not actually saved pg 35

cannot have it both ways, the FAQ allowance for it to be used against perils of the warp further backs up the fact that it is not a save, hence is not counted for unsaved wounds
by you're "logic" a t4 model hit by a str 8 weapon still gets feel no pain, since the wound isnt "unsaved" till after it fails the feel no pain rule


Automatically Appended Next Post:
not to mention the only circumstance feel no pain can be used is on an unsaved wound... so if the wound was not unsaved, you cannot use feel no pain anyway,
"when a model with this special rule SUFFERS AN UNSAVED WOUND, it can make a special feel no pain roll"pg 35
so again, you are trying to have it both ways, by saying it IS an unsaved wound so you get a feel no pain roll, but you are also saying it is NOT an unsaved wound so you get your feel no pain despite the unsaved wound causing instant death.

that is just wrong, since the FNP can only be used on unsaved wounds, it has already suffered the unsaved wound, and if instant death applies to that unsaved wound, the model dies, with no FNP roll no more FAQ needed, anyone trying to use FNP on unsaved wounds causing instant death, from any source, is cheating

Go look up entropic strike and apply your same logic.
Until than calm down, take 3 breaths, remember this is just the internet.

you need to stop being a cheat man, pg 35 says "when a model with this rule suffers an UNSAVED wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to AVOID being wounded (this is NOT a SAVING throw). Roll a D6 each time an UNSAVED wound is suffered"

"note that feel no pain ROLLS cannont be made against UNSAVED wounds that inflict instant death" pg 35

has the model suffered an unsaved wound? yes, you cannot even in normal circumstances make a feel no pain roll unless you suffered an unsaved wound in the first place
does it inflict instant death? yes
does it then get a FNP ROLL? no

again, you use FNP on unsaved wounds that cause instant death, you are CHEATING

FAQ and BRB are explicit in stating this

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
....remember this is just the internet.

BUT THIS MATTERS!!!!!

easysauce wrote:
you need to stop being a cheat man, pg 35 says "when a model with this rule suffers an UNSAVED wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to AVOID being wounded (this is NOT a SAVING throw). Roll a D6 each time an UNSAVED wound is suffered"

"note that feel no pain ROLLS cannont be made against UNSAVED wounds that inflict instant death" pg 35

has the model suffered an unsaved wound? yes, you cannot even in normal circumstances make a feel no pain roll unless you suffered an unsaved wound in the first place
does it inflict instant death? yes
does it then get a FNP ROLL? no

again, you use FNP on unsaved wounds that cause instant death, you are CHEATING

FAQ and BRB are explicit in stating this

Again, apply your logic to entropic strike.
Whoops, you've broken the game.
Entropic Strike is worded with the same timing as "Force"
You really need to stop accusing people of cheating, attack the argument not the person.

entropic strike is not the same, and does not over rule the GW issued FAQ

Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

did the model suffer an unsaved wound, yes, do force weapons cause ID when activated IMMEDIATELY after causing an unsaved wound? yes

if you read the above official FAQ rule and go "well this weapon causes instant death, but I still get feel no pain" you are cheating, and if you really need to lawyer and cheat to win, well have fun with that

easysauce wrote:
it is not a saved wound, it is an IGNORED wound,

big difference...

...you need to stop being a cheat man, pg 35 says "when a model with this rule suffers an UNSAVED wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to AVOID being wounded (this is NOT a SAVING throw). Roll a D6 each time an UNSAVED wound is suffered"

"note that feel no pain ROLLS cannont be made against UNSAVED wounds that inflict instant death" pg 35

Now quote the rest of it, because you missed a really important part.

Never mind, I will do it for you "On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

I underlined the important part for you.

you only get to treat it as being saved if you got to make the feel no pain roll in the first place, and you only get to make feel no pain on unsaved wounds...

you are saying "I get to use feel no pain on unsaved instant death wounds, because if I make the FNP roll, the wound is then saved"

thats circular logic, and FNP happens after the instant death rule is applied to the unsaved wound

models with FNP only make the roll on unsaved wounds, and unsaved wounds that cause ID disallow FNP rolls

easysauce wrote:
entropic strike is not the same, and does not over rule the GW issued FAQ

Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

did the model suffer an unsaved wound, yes, do force weapons cause ID when activated IMMEDIATELY after causing an unsaved wound? yes

if you read the above official FAQ rule and go "well this weapon causes instant death, but I still get feel no pain" you are cheating, and if you really need to lawyer and cheat to win, well have fun with that

Stop accusing people of cheating based on the fallacy of your rules assumption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
you only get to treat it as being saved if you got to make the feel no pain roll in the first place, and you only get to make feel no pain on unsaved wounds...

you are saying "I get to use feel no pain on unsaved instant death wounds, because if I make the FNP roll, the wound is then saved"

thats circular logic, and FNP happens after the instant death rule is applied to the unsaved wound

models with FNP only make the roll on unsaved wounds, and unsaved wounds that cause ID disallow FNP rolls

Again, apply the same logic to Entropic Strike. If you're saying the wording works here than it will work there.

using something completely tangential, like entropic strike, which has nothing to do with instant death,
and completely contradictory to the official FAQ is cheating, no amount of fancy talk gets around that

the force weapon inflicts instant death
the FAQ says
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

thats as clear as it gets, if you take FNP rolls on unsaved wounds caused by weapons that cause instant death, you are cheating

and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the entropic strike issue is separate from this, it is not proof that you get to break the rules as intended, and the rules as written, and the FAQ as written


Automatically Appended Next Post:
entropic strike does not cause instant death, thats why you can FNP it, that is the key difference

Easysauce, Please get your act together.
We are an amazing Forum and a great community, And Glad you joined.
But There is no need for your ALL CAPS RAGE. Because Really it does make you look a rather foolish newcomer.

Enjoy the game, and relax.

Happy wargaming!
Papa

So when do you make a FNP roll easysauce?
Is it when you have an unsaved wound?

When do you make the check for a force weapon? Cos that's the important question. If they are both when you have an unsaved wound then you have an issue.

easysauce wrote:
using something completely tangential, like entropic strike, which has nothing to do with instant death,
and completely contradictory to the official FAQ is cheating, no amount of fancy talk gets around that

the force weapon inflicts instant death

the FAQ says
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

thats as clear as it gets, if you take FNP rolls on unsaved wounds caused by weapons that cause instant death, you are cheating

and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact

Can you show me a Force Weapon that has the ID rule on it ?

easysauce wrote:
and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact

Just FYI, the old 'It's not rude if it's true' defence doesn't hold much water around here. Dakka's rule #1 is to be polite. If you wish to participate in discussion on this forum, you need to address the argument without attacking the poster.

Fragile wrote:

easysauce wrote:
using something completely tangential, like entropic strike, which has nothing to do with instant death,
and completely contradictory to the official FAQ is cheating, no amount of fancy talk gets around that

the force weapon inflicts instant death

the FAQ says
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

thats as clear as it gets, if you take FNP rolls on unsaved wounds caused by weapons that cause instant death, you are cheating

and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact

Can you show me a Force Weapon that has the ID rule on it ? yes it says right in the main rule book, when activated (wich is immediate after causing an unsaved wound) the force weapon has the instant death special rule

pg 37.

"force

if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a warp charge point and taking a psychic test (see pg 67). if the test is failed or the beare has no warp charge to spend there is no additional effect. If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule (see pg 38)"

easysauce wrote:
the entropic strike issue is separate from this, it is not proof that you get to break the rules as intended, and the rules as written, and the FAQ as written

It's not a separate issue. If you take your logic and apply it in a situation without ID, rules are broken.

entropic strike does not cause instant death, thats why you can FNP it, that is the key difference

Zoom. That was the point flying right over your head.

Unsaved Wound = UW
According to you:
UW caused. Special rule triggers off of UW. Rule is applied. FNP roll made, wound treated as saved. How can you treat a wound as saved if you also applied the UW trigger?

easysauce wrote:

Fragile wrote:

easysauce wrote:
using something completely tangential, like entropic strike, which has nothing to do with instant death,
and completely contradictory to the official FAQ is cheating, no amount of fancy talk gets around that

the force weapon inflicts instant death

the FAQ says
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

thats as clear as it gets, if you take FNP rolls on unsaved wounds caused by weapons that cause instant death, you are cheating

and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact

Can you show me a Force Weapon that has the ID rule on it ? yes it says right in the main rule book, when activated (wich is immediate after causing an unsaved wound) the force weapon has the instant death special rule

pg 37.

"force

if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a warp charge point and taking a psychic test (see pg 67). if the test is failed or the beare has no warp charge to spend there is no additional effect. If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule (see pg 38)"

So now your saying it has the Force rule and not the ID rule ?

so when does the check occur, immediately after an unsaved wound is cause, and assuming it passes, it confers the instant death rule on those unsaved wounds, and FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds with the instant death rule. entropic strike does not cause instant death, so it can be FNP'ed, it is completely unrelated


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:


So now your saying it has the Force rule and not the ID rule ?

no, it has both, assuming you pass the psychic test, as clearly stated in the rules,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
how "unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death rule" pg 38 can be interpreted as anything other then unsaved wounds inflicting instant death takes a special kind of "logic"

It does NOT have both. Those weapons have the FORCE rule. The wounds by the weapons DO NOT cause ID. The Psyker can take his test on unsaved wounds to have it cause ID, but the original wound does not have the ID rule to it. Therefore FNP can be used on that original wound. IF FNP is successful the wound is treated as saved. The Psyker cannot activate his FORCE rule against a saved wound.

easysauce wrote:so when does the check occur, immediately after an unsaved wound is cause, and assuming it passes, it confers the instant death rule on those unsaved wounds, and FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds with the instant death rule. entropic strike does not cause instant death, so it can be FNP'ed, it is completely unrelated

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
the entropic strike issue is separate from this, it is not proof that you get to break the rules as intended, and the rules as written, and the FAQ as written

It's not a separate issue. If you take your logic and apply it in a situation without ID, rules are broken.

entropic strike does not cause instant death, thats why you can FNP it, that is the key difference

Zoom. That was the point flying right over your head.

Unsaved Wound = UW
According to you:
UW caused. Special rule triggers off of UW. Rule is applied. FNP roll made, wound treated as saved. How can you treat a wound as saved if you also applied the UW trigger?

See how I removed the ability from the equation to attempt to explain it to you? Do you agree that this is the sequence of events you're proposing?

immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP

of course if that logic is put to a situation without ID its different... because ID means it ignores FNP, and no ID means you can make a FNP roll... entropic strike means no ID so go make a FNP roll... activated force weapon means ID applies, so no FNP roll

easysauce wrote:
immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP

of course if that logic is put to a situation without ID its different... because ID means it ignores FNP, and no ID means you can make a FNP roll... entropic strike means no ID so go make a FNP roll... activated force weapon means ID applies, so no FNP roll

If that's how you'd like to play it, than by all means.

I'll be playing it the "right" way.

seriously though, just messin. IMO it's up for grabs.