Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

easysauce wrote:
immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP

of course if that logic is put to a situation without ID its different... because ID means it ignores FNP, and no ID means you can make a FNP roll... entropic strike means no ID so go make a FNP roll... activated force weapon means ID applies, so no FNP roll

And if you resolve and apply ES, and then pass your FNP roll you're applying one rule that can only ever apply on an unsaved wound and another rule that says to treat the wound as saved.

Do you not see that as incorrect?

so you are saying unsaved wounds inflicted by a force weapon do not cause instant death then?

easysauce wrote:
so you are saying unsaved wounds inflicted by a force weapon do not cause instant death then?

Not until after Force is activated.

despite the rule book saying otherwise? why have a rule book at all then... lets just make up the rules to benefit us the most

easysauce wrote:
despite the rule book saying otherwise? why have a rule book at all then... lets just make up the rules to benefit us the most

While we're at it, lets be rude and disrespectful.
Call cheaters to the left, and cheaters to the right.


How about Nid Boneswords?

This one really is sticky. Even after reading through both sides' interpretations it's tricky. If I HAD to pick, I'd say FNP should be taken, but that'd be a "decision" not an "interpretation" as I don't think I have a clear one.

Chiming in as a neutral here.

Just because entropic strike may be broken, does not mean instant death vs fnp is... again a completely different rule, that is also a grey area, is not proof of another rules validity or invalidity.

They are two separate rules,
and the RAI and RAW say you do the test to make unsaved wounds caused by force weapons cause instant death immediately, not after feel no pain, immediately, the definition of that word means before anything else. feel no pain has does not say immediately, it just says to apply it to unsaved wounds, of the non instant death variety. Maybe if feel no pain also said to make the roll immediately after the unsaved wound it would at least be tied in position to be rolled for, but it does not.

Boneswords. Unsaved wound is taken. You test immediately against your leadership. If the test is passed you take FNP as normal as the wound did not cause ID and FNP is not disallowed . If you fail the model suffers ID and FNP is disallowed due to the ID effect. This is how my local gaming group has played it to allow full advantage for both sides to use their abilities.

A similar concept can be applied to to force weapons. replacing the opposing leadership test with the test to activate said force weapon. Both abilities are worded similarly stating immediatley take the test, be it an opposing test or a psychic test.

easysauce wrote:
immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP

No, immediately means, in this context, immediately after you have established that there was an unsaved wound.

If the target has FNP, you haven't established that an unsaved wound occured until after you have made FNP rolls.

 insaniak wrote:

easysauce wrote:
immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP

No, immediately means, in this context, immediately after you have established that there was an unsaved wound.

If the target has FNP, you haven't established that an unsaved wound occured until after you have made FNP rolls.

except you cannot use FNP until you have established that the model suffered an unsaved wound..."when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special Feel no Pain roll" pg 35

both the FNP and force weapon instant death are triggered by the model taking an unsaved wound, however only the force rule says it is applied immediately

easysauce wrote:
except you cannot use FNP until you have established that the model suffered an unsaved wound..."when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special Feel no Pain roll" pg 35

both the FNP and force weapon instant death are triggered by the model taking an unsaved wound, however only the force rule says it is applied immediately

Except you do not know if you actually have an unsaved wound until you figure out if FNP treats the wound as saved.

That and you have to roll FNP first or you break things like the Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.

Also, when do they get to roll for FNP? "when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound" so this will happen the instant a model with the FNP special rule suffers an unsaved wound.

 DeathReaper wrote:

easysauce wrote:
except you cannot use FNP until you have established that the model suffered an unsaved wound..."when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special Feel no Pain roll" pg 35

both the FNP and force weapon instant death are triggered by the model taking an unsaved wound, however only the force rule says it is applied immediately

Except you do not know if you actually have an unsaved wound until you figure out if FNP treats the wound as saved.

That and you have to roll FNP first or you break things like the Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.

Also, when do they get to roll for FNP? "when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound" so this will happen the instant a model with the FNP special rule suffers an unsaved wound.

so if you dont know a model has an unsaved wound until it rolls fnp, but you cannot even roll for FNP unless it has an unsaved wound, but you dont know it has an unsaved wound until you roll FNP, but you cannot make a FNP roll unless you suffer an unsaved wound, but then you dont know if it even has an unsaved wound until it makes a FNP roll, but you cannot even make that FNP roll until you suffer an unsaved wound... ect ect

it says to "treat the unsaved wound" pg 35as having been saved, it does not say unsaved wounds that occurred before the rule are no longer unsaved wounds for all other rules purposes, and it specifically refers to the wound you felt no pain on as being of the unsaved variety

 DeathReaper wrote:

Ub3rb3n wrote:
Agreed with rigled however if one wound goes through and the force weapons get activated then I would say no fnp after that point, for that round of combat at least

Except that can not happen.

As Rig pointed out If you allow activation before FNP there are several other rules broken and

rigeld2 wrote:This exact interpretation breaks rules when applying it to other "unsaved wound" mechanics like Entropic Strike and therefore cannot be correct.

Sorry I may have just not been clear ill give an example

Plague marines and typhus in combat with a gkss, the gkss put 2 wounds at int 6 with their halbreds one fails its fnp roll so as per brotherhood of psykers they activate their force weapons, any wounds from them on with say swords or hammer none of the rest of the plague or typhus get their fnp roll

easysauce wrote:
except you cannot use FNP until you have established that the model suffered an unsaved wound..."when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special Feel no Pain roll" pg 35

Right. And the point of FNP is that it may or may not result in that unsaved wound not actually applying.

Finish one process at a time.
- The model suffers a wound.
- resolve whether or not that wound is saved
- resolve anything that results from the save or lack thereof.

FNP fits into the second process, because it's still a part of determining whether or not that wound is saved. The Force Weapon comes afterwards, when you know for sure that there is a wound that has not been saved.

except FNP says it can only be used on an unsaved wound,



the rule, the one in the book, says "when a model suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll" pg 35 so by definition, if you are making a FNP roll, your model has "suffered an unsaved wound"pg35 that is 100% RAW

the model cannot make the FNP roll till it suffers an unsaved wound, it says right there in the BRB,

the model has to "suffer an unsaved wound" to make its FNP roll, how can the model make FNP without also "suffering an unsaved wound" pg 35

you are saying you cannot determine if the model has suffered an unsaved wound, but that is the whole trigger for FNP rolls (and the force rule is immediately applied when the unsaved wound is inflicted, not suffered)
something that is not a save, does not determine if a wound has been saved,


model is hit
model is wounded
model fails a save, immediately a test is made to see if ID is applied to that wound
unsaved wounds, without the ID rule, get to make a FNP roll

Did you just say it says immediately for fnp and force weapons!!!

Sounds like a rule conflict to me which means whoevers player turn it is gets to decide if the force weapon gets activated (but in actuality it shouldn't) or if fnp gets to be taken first, 100% raw

not to mention the force rule, says "when a pysker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37 wchich applies ID to the wound

the psyker inflicts the unsaved wound before the opposing model suffers the unsaved wound, feel no pain happens after an unsaved wound, by its own rule "when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound [that does not cause ID], it can make a special feel no pain roll"pg 35

the BRB says the force rule gets worked out immediately for unsaved wounds, whereas FNP just gets worked out on unsaved wounds without ID,

when one rule says its worked out immediately, and the other has no such time connotations, then the more specific rule would take precedence, just like stuff that is stated as happening immediately, or at the beginning of a phase, goes before things that just happen in that phase


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ub3rb3n wrote:
Did you just say it says immediately for fnp and force weapons!!!

Sounds like a rule conflict to me which means whoevers player turn it is gets to decide if the force weapon gets activated (but in actuality it shouldn't) or if fnp gets to be taken first, 100% raw

it only says immediately for force weapon, not for FNP

easysauce wrote:
except FNP says it can only be used on an unsaved wound,

Of course it does. There wouldn't be much pint using it on any other type of wound.

The point is, until FNP is resolved, you haven't finished resolving that save. Yes, they both kick in for an unsaved wound... but one of them is still affecting that save process, while the other is a completely new event that happens immediately after you have finished the save process.

 insaniak wrote:

easysauce wrote:
except FNP says it can only be used on an unsaved wound,

Of course it does. There wouldn't be much pint using it on any other type of wound.

The point is, until FNP is resolved, you haven't finished resolving that save. Yes, they both kick in for an unsaved wound... but one of them is still affecting that save process, while the other is a completely new event that happens immediately after you have finished the save process.

FNP is not a save, there for not influencing the save process RAW specifically says "this is not a saving throw"pg 35 and that you "roll a d6 each time an unsaved wound is suffered"pg 35 so by definition, it is
A:not a save, so not part of the save process
B: happens after the unsaved wound is determined to be an unsaved wound

you cannot say the wound is determined to be unsaved, for the purposes of triggering FNP, but not unsaved for the purpose of an immediate force ID application, just the use of the word immediate with the force rule, and the lack of it for FNP puts the force modifier before the FNP one,

your definition would allow FNP rolls on all unsaved wounds, even though causing instant death, since even a str 10 unsaved wound on a t4 model, by your definition, has not suffered an unsaved wound till after its FNP roll

easysauce wrote:
FNP is not a save, there for not influencing the save process RAW specifically says "this is not a saving throw"pg 35 and that you "roll a d6 each time an unsaved wound is suffered"pg 35 so by definition, it is
A:not a save, so not part of the save process

Except that if it is successful, the end result is treated as a saved wound.

You're absolutely right in that FNP is not a save... but it is still a part of the save process, because it affects the final outcome of your save resolution.

you cannot say the wound is determined to be unsaved, for the purposes of triggering FNP, but not unsaved for the purpose of an immediate force ID application,

Sure you can.

If I have to go swimming immediately after I finish eating, and I eat a carrot, and then eat an apple, I don't go swimming until after the apple, even though in the strictest sense I did finish eating (if only temporarily) when I finished the carrot ... the eating process is not yet complete at that point though.

The same thing is happening here. Because FNP affects the final outcome of the save, you haven't finished resolving the saving throw until you have resolved FNP, even though you had established that there was an unsaved wound at an earlier step. Yes, you have an unsaved wound. You also have an unsaved wound before you roll the save... but the saving process is not yet complete, so anything that happens immediately after discovering that you have an unsaved wund can't yet happen... You have to finish what you're doing before moving on to the next step.

easysauce wrote:
you cannot say the wound is determined to be unsaved, for the purposes of triggering FNP, but not unsaved for the purpose of an immediate force ID application, just the use of the word immediate with the force rule, and the lack of it for FNP puts the force modifier before the FNP one

You have to say that, because if you pass your FNP roll you treat the wound as saved, and nothing can trigger off of a saved wound.

FNP does not need immediately in its rule because:

When do they get to roll for FNP? "when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound" so this will happen the instant a model with the FNP special rule suffers an unsaved wound.

if that were the case, the RAW would say "after a model has failed a saving throw, but before it suffers an unsaved wound, make a FNP roll"

you cannot use cyclical logic to get around the fact the RAW say the force rule is applied immediately after an unsaved wound (there is no rule in the book about FNP being part of the save process, or that it is needed to determine weather an unsaved wound triggers other special rules)

the the force rule is used for determining ID, immediately after the unsaved wound, and ID makes the unsaved wound ineligible for FNP, the use of the word immediately in force, and the lack of it in FNP means RAW say force is applied immediately, and the model does not have to suffer an unsaved wound for force, the attack merely has to inflict one, which also comes before

even barring inflicted unsaved wounds coming before suffered unsaved wounds,

all that the fact that they say force is applied immediately, as opposed to FNP having no such time connotation, would mean only one is immediate and the other is NOT,

if two rules state they occur at deployment, but one says it occurs immediately at deployment, while the other says it just occurs at deployment, which one comes first then? the immediate one of course, thats what the word means...

im·me·di·ate·ly
[ih-mee-dee-it-lee] Show IPA
adverb
1.
without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once: Please telephone him immediately.
2.
with no object or space intervening.
3.
closely: immediately in the vicinity.
4.
without intervening medium or agent; concerning or affecting directly.


all this talk about FNP being part of the saving process, despite RAW saying it is not a save, is conjecture, and only possibly RAI not RAW

There is, of course, a third possibility as well:

Since both effects trigger off of the same thing (when an unsaved wound has been caused) that means per pg 9 of the rulebook, the player whose turn it is chooses which is resolved first.


With that, carry on...

easysauce wrote:


im·me·di·ate·ly
[ih-mee-dee-it-lee] Show IPA
adverb
1.
without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once: Please telephone him immediately.
2.
with no object or space intervening.
3.
closely: immediately in the vicinity.
4.
without intervening medium or agent; concerning or affecting directly.

 Lorek wrote:
6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

Also the instant a model with the FNP special rule suffers an unsaved wound it gets to make a FNP roll. So FNP is instantly as well, plus we need to know if the wound counts as saved or not, so FNP must be done first or thinks like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike Break.

except GW did not write immediately in the FNP rules, and did not say you do not get FNP when the wounds inflicted entropic strike or hex rifle effects... and does not say it is part of determining if the wound is unsaved, since you cannot even have a FNP roll without an unsaved wound

they did say the force rule is immediate, they did say the FNP rule does not apply to ID wounds,

FNP does not say immediate, force does, you are assuming the RAI meant to say FNP is immediate, but RAW say force is immediate, not FNP

everything used to justify getting around the ID rule in force for FNP relies on things GW did not say, and did not faq,

everything I have posted relating to FNP being vetoed by the immediate application of ID from force was actually written in the rule book and faq

easysauce wrote:
except GW did not write immediately in the FNP rules,

They did not have to, as you get your FNP roll when?

"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound"

Well as soon as a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound he gets his FNP roll, so the language of immediately would be redundant.

For FNP to do anything at all, it must be resolved before we know whether a given wound will be treated as unsaved or not.

Since other rules cannot trigger until we know whether the wound will be treated as unsaved or not, to my read FNP has to go first.

The specific examples of Entropic Strike and the Hexrifle make the point particularly clear. If we want those rules to function, FNP has to be resolved first. If not, we get broken paradoxes. If FNP has to be resolved first before we apply those two rules, then for consistency's case it certainly SHOULD be applied before other effects which are also triggered by an unsaved wound.

Wow, so in adding more rules to the game they didn't manage to clear this up yet? The FNP vs. Hexrifle thread from 2011 rears its ugly head again!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 yakface wrote:

There is, of course, a third possibility as well:

Since both effects trigger off of the same thing (when an unsaved wound has been caused) that means per pg 9 of the rulebook, the player whose turn it is chooses which is resolved first.


With that, carry on...

I'm with Yak on this one. Two events trigger off of exactly the same thing at exactly the same time. Page 9 tells you that the player whose turn it is decides which goes off first.

In my opinion 'Immediatly' is written for a reason and gives the ability a higher priority when triggering at the same time as other abilities.

FNP, and Force/ Boneswords are triggered at the same time.

If 2 are listed as 'Immediatly' then your stuck, and can roll it out.

Edit: Based on RAW, RAI is anyones guess.

Locally we're just going by what we assume to be the spirit of the thing by you get to FnP only if the guy didn't activate the force weapon. We treat force weapons as going first due to immediately wording but that's just we decided, well until they FAQ it lol