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Nem, I don't understand your comment. It's worded as its worded?

easysauce wrote:
that would be RAW,

but some people keep insisting you apply wounds before they are inflicted, that FNP is a save and/or used to determine if wounds are unsaved, despite having to trigger of an unsaved wound in the first place ect ect and that rules that do not counter FNP somehow mean rules that do counter FNP, now do not.

Nobody insists that, even the contrary.
People use the rules that "do not counter FnP" to show a precedent that FnP should be rolled first.

Another one would be Lemartes' Fury Unbound.
When suffering an unsaved wound, his STR and A goes to 5, but he also has Feel no Pain.
Again FnP goes first and he can't trigger Fury Unbound from a discounted wound seeing as we have to treat it as being saved.

So now we have around five examples where FnP should be rolled first?

BLADERIKER wrote:
In both cases the order of events went: Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, Roll to Save (If you can), Inflict Wounds(Use Special Abilities That Proc off of Wounds Inflicted/unsaved), Apply Wounds.(Activate Abilities that Proc on Wounds Applied). Activate Abilities Used after Wounds are applied/tests taken.
I could be wrong but, it seem that FNP is activated when the wound is applied or even after the wound is applied, not when the wound is inflicted. As it states in the BRB "Feel No Pain is not a save) it is a special test taken after a wound is applied.

That's where I have to disagree.
My rulebook nowhere says that inflicting wounds happens before applying them.

here's how it works. You roll to hit with Life Leech. You roll to wound with Life Leech, The Target gets a save against Life Leech. Inflicted Wounds are applied to target and effects from unsaved wounds are applied. Unit/Model suffer wounds. FNP is taken to negate the suffered wounds. Thus the Life Leech heals its caster, and FNP keeps the Target Unit from losing a wound/wounds.

So you are telling me that you leeched a wound that you never dealt in the first place?
Life Leech is when you drain the life out of an enemy.
When you fail to drain the life out of someone, you won't get his life.

Exactly where is the problem with Lemartes? He suffers an unsaved wound, gets angry and becomes str 5, and with FNP he doesn't lose a wound. Just like Rocky Balboa...

copper.talos wrote:
Exactly where is the problem with Lemartes? He suffers an unsaved wound, gets angry and becomes str 5, and with FNP he doesn't lose a wound. Just like Rocky Balboa...

Because we have tons of other threads on that.
They concluded that FnP comes first and he doesn't get his STR5/A5.

No, the only conclusion is that the community here in dakka is divided. As I said before there was a poll here with a minor advantage in the "against FNP" side.

DevianID wrote:
Nem, I don't understand your comment. It's worded as its worded?

Sorry, confusing take on 'It is what it is'

-

The problem I have with the arguements presented for FNP is the outcome means FNP would always get priority over other abilities which are triggered by the same condition ('Suffering a Unsaved wound'). I just can't accept its intended that FNP Special Rule always gets Proirity over other Special Rules triggered.

Nem wrote:
The problem I have with the arguements presented for FNP is the outcome means FNP would always get priority over other abilities which are triggered by the same condition ('Suffering a Unsaved wound'). I just can't accept its intended that FNP Special Rule always gets Proirity over other Special Rules triggered.

That's because it's a save that officially isn't a saving throw.
The reason it's not a saving throw is because we are only allowed to use ONE of those.
They worded it (as badly as it is) to make it clear we have two "saves" instead of one.

And I am quite happy with having FnP goes first, whether it's good or bad.
I will admit that I hardly care, the outcome doesn't have any result on my playing. (Sorry, I lied. It does have a result. I play Lemartes and never encounter GK, so FnP going last would actually benefit me)

To say that sometimes FnP goes first and at other times it goes second is really bad and will result into "I will just do what benefits me at that moment!"
For all I care FnP could always go last.
But we have found a couple of similar cases where FnP going last makes no sense and I believe it sets a precedent for the rule.

FNP wording makes it crystal clear that it is not a saving throw, so you should never treat it as one.

copper.talos wrote:
FNP wording makes it crystal clear that it is not a saving throw, so you should never treat it as one.

Treat the wound as being saved
So you should treat it as one, even though it's not saving throw.

The problem with what you posted isn't in the result, it's in the process. By saying it is a 2nd save you hint that it should be rolled after the normal save, which is wrong.

copper.talos wrote:
The problem with what you posted isn't in the result, it's in the process. By saying it is a 2nd save you hint that it should be rolled after the normal save, which is wrong.

I fully understand.
But by saying it should be rolled "after" stuff we encounter even more problems.

Maybe the best solution would even be to use that one rule, saying the player who's turn it is decides what goes first?

Kangodo wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
The problem with what you posted isn't in the result, it's in the process. By saying it is a 2nd save you hint that it should be rolled after the normal save, which is wrong.

I fully understand.
But by saying it should be rolled "after" stuff we encounter even more problems.

Maybe the best solution would even be to use that one rule, saying the player who's turn it is decides what goes first?

Or the rule that allows models to be affected by multiple special rules.

@Kangodo

It's up to the players/TO. In my club we have already decided how to play it so there isn't a problem. But if you can't reach an agreement with your opponent, then that's the most fair solution.

I hope we get a faq on this. This has been an issue since 5th.

Kangodo wrote:

easysauce wrote:
that would be RAW,

but some people keep insisting you apply wounds before they are inflicted, that FNP is a save and/or used to determine if wounds are unsaved, despite having to trigger of an unsaved wound in the first place ect ect and that rules that do not counter FNP somehow mean rules that do counter FNP, now do not.

Nobody insists that, even the contrary.
People use the rules that "do not counter FnP" to show a precedent that FnP should be rolled first.

Another one would be Lemartes' Fury Unbound.
When suffering an unsaved wound, his STR and A goes to 5, but he also has Feel no Pain.
Again FnP goes first and he can't trigger Fury Unbound from a discounted wound seeing as we have to treat it as being saved.

So now we have around five examples where FnP should be rolled first?

BLADERIKER wrote:
In both cases the order of events went: Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, Roll to Save (If you can), Inflict Wounds(Use Special Abilities That Proc off of Wounds Inflicted/unsaved), Apply Wounds.(Activate Abilities that Proc on Wounds Applied). Activate Abilities Used after Wounds are applied/tests taken.
I could be wrong but, it seem that FNP is activated when the wound is applied or even after the wound is applied, not when the wound is inflicted. As it states in the BRB "Feel No Pain is not a save) it is a special test taken after a wound is applied.

That's where I have to disagree.
My rulebook nowhere says that inflicting wounds happens before applying them.

here's how it works. You roll to hit with Life Leech. You roll to wound with Life Leech, The Target gets a save against Life Leech. Inflicted Wounds are applied to target and effects from unsaved wounds are applied. Unit/Model suffer wounds. FNP is taken to negate the suffered wounds. Thus the Life Leech heals its caster, and FNP keeps the Target Unit from losing a wound/wounds.

So you are telling me that you leeched a wound that you never dealt in the first place?
Life Leech is when you drain the life out of an enemy.
When you fail to drain the life out of someone, you won't get his life.

This argument about FNP Lemartes is logically flawed because, in arguing for the occurrence of FNP in a certain order, it assumes that there is an accepted order, which is the topic of this debate.

It is like saying the definition of a television is a television.

As for the explanation of Life Leech...

"So you are telling me that you leeched a wound that you never dealt in the first place? Life Leech is when you drain the life out of an enemy. When you fail to drain the life out of someone, you won't get his life."

First of all this is a subjective conceptualization of how the rules work.

Second, it is not necessary, according to the rules, that someone needs to lose a wound to provide the attacking psyker with a gained wound. The rules explicitly state that an unsaved wound need be inflicted. It does not say that that wound needs to be applied.

Maybe this will help make clear my logic here.

I can see where my logic was flawed on the Life Leech thing as I was comparing FNP to RP, which happen after a unite/model is removed as a casualty, and not before however, I do feel that this is an order of events issue. I'll try to explain.

You have to roll for every thing and some things happen at certain times. So I'll try to break it down.

Step 1: Roll to Hit. (reroll if you can). Step 2: Roll to Wound. Step 3:(reroll if you can). Roll to Save. Step. (Reroll if you can). Step 4: Then Apply Wounds(remove models), Step 5: Test as needed. I'll break this down further.

Step 1: Roll to hit, if I are TL or have FE you get some form of reroll. This is also when To hit effects are resolved, as hits are inflicted.

Step 2: Roll to wound, if I have FE or any number of other special abilities that let you reroll failed to wound rolls here is where it is done. This is the phase wounds are inflicted.

Step 3: Roll to Save, this is where I attempt to negate the wounds inflicted by using a saving throw. (Armor, Invul, Cover), this is where unsaved wounds are inflicted and effects for unsaved inflicted wounds are resolved such as Force weapons.

Step 4: Apply Wounds, this is where I apply my unsaved wounds/suffer wounds to my models, this is where I rules that effect Suffered wounds are resolved such as FNP.

Step 5: Test if Needed, this is where I make necessary moral checks, this is where rules that take place after Moral test happen such as Fall backs and RP.

Basically. A force weapon can be activated when an inflicted wound is unsaved ( causing it to be ID, which negates FNP) Another way to show this is simple, A power weapon is ap 3 and when I inflict the wound on a model that is wearing armor 3...6 (without an invul save) I instantly inflict a un-saved Wound ( as it is clearly stated that FNP is not a save) at that point I can roll to see if my force weapon causes ID and if I pass the test my opponent will be unable to use FNP to stop the wound from being applied, which may result in the unit or model being slain out right (barring EW)

Also the circular logic that FNP is a Save does not work. Does FNP let you ignore a Wound taken (As though is was saved after the fact)? Yes it does, How does FNP trigger? FNP triggers off of a Unsaved Wound that is suffered by the unit/model. So to use FNP I would have had to have suffered an unsaved wound or Feel no pain cannot be used at all. As FNP is not a saving throw I cannot take this test in the saving step of the the order of events. FNP activates after wounds are applied, but before models are removed and tests are taken. (Which is the reverse of RP)

I understand the confusion regarding this issue from both sides, sadly until they either make a FAQ entry regarding this issue, or make errata changes to either Force or FNP, we are stuck with; Force weapons can be activated immediately after a wounds goes unsaved, and FNP is taken after an unsaved is suffer (Note that Feel No Pain is not a saving throw).

I just use the logic if Party A inflicts X on Party B, then Party B suffers from X.

FORCE
If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test.
If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule.


FEEL NO PAIN
Roll a D6 each time an unsaved Wound is suffered. On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved.
Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death.

Also, the rule seems to say FNP does not count as a save until it is made. Weird.

BLADERIKER wrote:
Maybe this will help make clear my logic here.

I can see where my logic was flawed on the Life Leech thing as I was comparing FNP to RP, which happen after a unite/model is removed as a casualty, and not before however, I do feel that this is an order of events issue. I'll try to explain.

You have to roll for every thing and some things happen at certain times. So I'll try to break it down.

Step 1: Roll to Hit. (reroll if you can). Step 2: Roll to Wound. Step 3:(reroll if you can). Roll to Save. Step. (Reroll if you can). Step 4: Then Apply Wounds(remove models), Step 5: Test as needed. I'll break this down further.

Step 1: Roll to hit, if I are TL or have FE you get some form of reroll. This is also when To hit effects are resolved, as hits are inflicted.

Step 2: Roll to wound, if I have FE or any number of other special abilities that let you reroll failed to wound rolls here is where it is done. This is the phase wounds are inflicted.

Step 3: Roll to Save, this is where I attempt to negate the wounds inflicted by using a saving throw. (Armor, Invul, Cover), this is where unsaved wounds are inflicted and effects for unsaved inflicted wounds are resolved such as Force weapons.

Step 4: Apply Wounds, this is where I apply my unsaved wounds/suffer wounds to my models, this is where I rules that effect Suffered wounds are resolved such as FNP.

Step 5: Test if Needed, this is where I make necessary moral checks, this is where rules that take place after Moral test happen such as Fall backs and RP.

Basically. A force weapon can be activated when an inflicted wound is unsaved ( causing it to be ID, which negates FNP) Another way to show this is simple, A power weapon is ap 3 and when I inflict the wound on a model that is wearing armor 3...6 (without an invul save) I instantly inflict a un-saved Wound ( as it is clearly stated that FNP is not a save) at that point I can roll to see if my force weapon causes ID and if I pass the test my opponent will be unable to use FNP to stop the wound from being applied, which may result in the unit or model being slain out right (barring EW)

Also the circular logic that FNP is a Save does not work. Does FNP let you ignore a Wound taken (As though is was saved after the fact)? Yes it does, How does FNP trigger? FNP triggers off of a Unsaved Wound that is suffered by the unit/model. So to use FNP I would have had to have suffered an unsaved wound or Feel no pain cannot be used at all. As FNP is not a saving throw I cannot take this test in the saving step of the the order of events. FNP activates after wounds are applied, but before models are removed and tests are taken. (Which is the reverse of RP)

I understand the confusion regarding this issue from both sides, sadly until they either make a FAQ entry regarding this issue, or make errata changes to either Force or FNP, we are stuck with; Force weapons can be activated immediately after a wounds goes unsaved, and FNP is taken after an unsaved is suffer (Note that Feel No Pain is not a saving throw).

This was really a good read and you must have put quite some effort in it.
But than this problem rises: Where do the rules state that "inflicting" wounds and "suffering" wounds happen at a different time?
It's great that you've made 5 steps on how to resolve things, but I cannot find a basis for that in the BRB.

Let's use this in an example: A sword is pierced trough an armour.
What goes first? The sword piercing the armour or the armour being pierced by the sword?
If we go by the rules, we can see that these things "happen at the same time".
The nature of these abilities however stop the other thing from happening.
So I agree that we really need an errata on this, not just a FAQ because FAQ's are meant for one ability, this is something that affects a lot in the game.

I think that this rule is something every playgroup should "discuss" for themselves, because it's easier to determine a solution.
After all these pages it's quite clear that against any argument for FnP going first, someone has a counter and vice-versa.

At the moment, I have heard two good solutions within my group:
1) Since FnP says we should treat the wound as "being saved", FnP has to be rolled as if it was a save (in our games!).
2) We play a lot of MtG and they have the rule that whenever two things trigger at the same time, the controlling player goes first.

I guess it comes down to is when is an unsaved wound suffered, and when is it inflicted.

Basically, is the wound suffered/inflicted before or after Wounds are reduced by 1?

 Happyjew wrote:
I guess it comes down to is when is an unsaved wound suffered, and when is it inflicted.

Basically, is the wound suffered/inflicted before or after Wounds are reduced by 1?

You have unsaved wounds as soon as the save is failed.

sirlynchmob, right you fail a save (or dont get one) and that is an unsaved wound. A model with an unsaved wound is removed if it has only one wound. If FnP doesnt say it comes before the wound is counted as unsaved so then FnP has no effect... the model is removed (or the psyker gains a life leech wound, or force activates instant death) before you are allowed to use FnP--at worst they happen at the same time and your opponent decides the order on their turn. This obviously is not the intention of FnP, and no one plays FnP that it doesnt work on your opponents turn.

Poorly written wording on timing does not mean that you cant use FnP at all. That is like saying a model with no eyes (or with eyes covered) can never draw LOS and so cant shoot.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I guess it comes down to is when is an unsaved wound suffered, and when is it inflicted.

Basically, is the wound suffered/inflicted before or after Wounds are reduced by 1?

You have unsaved wounds as soon as the save is failed.

If a model receives an unsaved wound, then the Wound characteristic of that model is reduced by one. The reduction of the wound characteristic is conditional on the reception of an unsaved wound. So one has to happen before the other. Some things can interrupt this order.

Kangodo Wrote:

This was really a good read and you must have put quite some effort in it.
But than this problem rises: Where do the rules state that "inflicting" wounds and "suffering" wounds happen at a different time?
It's great that you've made 5 steps on how to resolve things, but I cannot find a basis for that in the BRB.

The Basis for this step by step order is found on Page 13-15 of the Little Rule Book, as well as pages 22-24 in same rule book.

On page 13: Roll to hit. (Self explanatory) Page 14, Middle left: Roll to wound. (Self explanatory). Page 14, lower right: Wound Pool. ( The total number of wounds caused before saves.)
Page 14, Top Left: Allocating Wounds & Remove Causalities: "To determine how many wounds are caused, you will need to allocate the Wounds caused and resolved any saving throws the target is allowed.) Page 14, top left: Take Saving Throws. "First of all, the target unit gets to make One saving throw, if it has one (See Page 16) for each Wound being resolved. Make note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused." Page 14, Middle Left: Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties. "Next, allocate an unsaved wound to an enemy model closest to the firing unit, reduce the models Wounds by 1."

Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."

This is the order of events right out of the Rule Book for determining what happens at what step. Now to reference this again...

"Feel No Pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)." Pg 35, Top Right, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).

"Force: If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge and taking a Psychic Test (See Page 67), If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.- If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds Inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38". (Pg 37, Top Left, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).

The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP. Which I will now cite.

"Feel No Pain: "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved Wound, roll a dice. on a 1,2,or 3 take the wound as normal(removing the model if it loses its final Wound). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues Fighting." (Pg 75, Middle Left, 5th Ed Rule Book).

"Force Weapons: Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The Psyker may take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn.- If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death regardless of its toughness value." (Pg 50, Bottom Right, 5th Ed Little Rule Book).

In 5th Ed, FNP was taken before you could activate a Force Weapon, this was due to the fact that for the force weapon to activate you have to have an unsaved wound, and in 5th Ed you would test FNP to see if there are any unsaved wounds.

In 6th Ed, FNP only works if you suffer an unsaved wound that does not inflict ID. In 6th Ed, as soon as a Saving throw is failed the Psyker can make a Force weapon activation test, before the wound is applied/suffered by the unit, if passed the wounds caused by the force weapon that turn all have the ID Special Rule.

This is pretty much cut and dry.

In 5th you also could not take FNP on ID wounds. So applying it one way in 5th and another in 6th makes no sense.

rigeld2 wrote:
In 5th you also could not take FNP on ID wounds. So applying it one way in 5th and another in 6th makes no sense.

In 6th Ed you cannot take a FNP against a wound with the ID special rule. nothing has changed there. Page 4, of the BRB FAQ, middle of the left side "Q: can Feel No Pain rolls be made against Wounds inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death Special Rule? (p35) A: No"

So where is the confusion here?

Basically the issues is:

I am being hit by a libby stick, meh i took 2 wounds! The horror! let me roll saves!
1 wound still got through!
What comes first -
The possible FNP rule?
The possible ID force rule?

At the time of the unsaved wound two checks come up both the force check and the FNP check. They would be simultaneous. Who/what goes first? If it is the force check, the FNP could be ignored, if it is the FNP check, then it is the wound could be saved.

In all honesty i dont know who to say goes first, but am leaning into the good old defender has first go.

Since FNP makes the unsaved wound saved, it must come before anything that triggers off an unsaved wound (FW activation, ES, etc). This is because without resolving FNP we don't know if the wound is actually unsaved.

Rolling FNP First break no rules.

Rolling anything else first and you break rules like ES, Hexrifle etc.

That's circular logic. How about this:
Using Force makes a wound and ID wound, so it must be done before any ability that needs to check if the wound that was inflicted was ID or not.

BLADERIKER wrote:
The Basis for this step by step order is found on Page 13-15 of the Little Rule Book, as well as pages 22-24 in same rule book.

On page 13: Roll to hit. (Self explanatory) Page 14, Middle left: Roll to wound. (Self explanatory). Page 14, lower right: Wound Pool. ( The total number of wounds caused before saves.)
Page 14, Top Left: Allocating Wounds & Remove Causalities: "To determine how many wounds are caused, you will need to allocate the Wounds caused and resolved any saving throws the target is allowed.) Page 14, top left: Take Saving Throws. "First of all, the target unit gets to make One saving throw, if it has one (See Page 16) for each Wound being resolved. Make note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused." Page 14, Middle Left: Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties. "Next, allocate an unsaved wound to an enemy model closest to the firing unit, reduce the models Wounds by 1."

Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."

This is the order of events right out of the Rule Book for determining what happens at what step. Now to reference this again...

"Feel No Pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)." Pg 35, Top Right, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).

"Force: If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge and taking a Psychic Test (See Page 67), If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.- If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds Inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38". (Pg 37, Top Left, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).

The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP. Which I will now cite.

"Feel No Pain: "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved Wound, roll a dice. on a 1,2,or 3 take the wound as normal(removing the model if it loses its final Wound). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues Fighting." (Pg 75, Middle Left, 5th Ed Rule Book).

"Force Weapons: Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The Psyker may take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn.- If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death regardless of its toughness value." (Pg 50, Bottom Right, 5th Ed Little Rule Book).

In 5th Ed, FNP was taken before you could activate a Force Weapon, this was due to the fact that for the force weapon to activate you have to have an unsaved wound, and in 5th Ed you would test FNP to see if there are any unsaved wounds.

In 6th Ed, FNP only works if you suffer an unsaved wound that does not inflict ID. In 6th Ed, as soon as a Saving throw is failed the Psyker can make a Force weapon activation test, before the wound is applied/suffered by the unit, if passed the wounds caused by the force weapon that turn all have the ID Special Rule.

This is pretty much cut and dry.

I have checked everything and you are correct!

The steps are indeed:
Roll to hit.
Roll to wound.
Put wounds in wound-pool, now they are inflicted and people may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds and make your saves.
Now you can activate FnP!
Last part is where you remove casualties.

So I was right! FnP is indeed taken right after Armour-saves.
It's just that RAW state that you roll for Force before rolls for Armour and stuff, giving it a high potential to waste your Warp Charges.
That is how it's described in: "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."

The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP.

I hardly think so, I started playing in 6th Ed.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Since FNP makes the unsaved wound saved, it must come before anything that triggers off an unsaved wound (FW activation, ES, etc). This is because without resolving FNP we don't know if the wound is actually unsaved.

Rolling FNP First break no rules.

Rolling anything else first and you break rules like ES, Hexrifle etc.

If, with the hex rifle, you are removed from play, the model no longer exists and doesn't have FNP as it is no longer in play, and thus has access to no rules.

Again multiple special rules stack, unless they are the same rule. You might not, ultimately, take the wound but all special rules still happen.

Doing it your way Instant death can only happen with a select few weapons, as most of those that cause instant death specify that they only cause instant death on an unsaved wound. And as you say you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FNP. Even the Double Strength requires an unsaved wound to become instant death.

BLADERIKER wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
In 5th you also could not take FNP on ID wounds. So applying it one way in 5th and another in 6th makes no sense.

In 6th Ed you cannot take a FNP against a wound with the ID special rule. nothing has changed there. Page 4, of the BRB FAQ, middle of the left side "Q: can Feel No Pain rolls be made against Wounds inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death Special Rule? (p35) A: No"

So where is the confusion here?

Force weapons that are not double toughness do not have the ID rule.
And you said in 5th FNP would come first. Why are you applying Force first in 6th when the triggers have not changed whatsoever?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:
Put wounds in wound-pool, now they are inflicted and people may activate Force.

This is incorrect. Populating the wound pool is not the same as inflicting an unsaved wound. The latter requires allocation.