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copper.talos wrote:
Yes I do. In the end the model doesn't lose a wound. It "felt no pain" but it lost its armour in the process. It doesn't "break" any mechanics, no division by zero and the game can continue.

If you force it to lost its armor are you treating the wound as saved?

quack98 wrote:
^Yes, but GW did write the rules, and as for 'my mom said I'm cool' I was asking him this in a game, and merely brought it as it was related to the topic and also the correct spelling is mum, as the English spelling of an English word in the English language is the correct spelling.

GW has many levels of organisation between the game design team and the dude you talked to. The worth of anecdotes in any debate is very low.

The quote is from an American tv show. American spelling, American English, good try.

^I know GW has many levels of organisation, as do most businesses, but as for the worth of anecdotes, you cannot set a single standard. Also when I asked the question everyone (about 20ish people) said it was obviously meant to be given.

As for it being an American TV show, American English is basically a simplified version of English (no disrespect meant) as its older English, that has progressed little in comparison due to poor links between U.S. and U.K. Throughout the 18th century, but as we're using any language
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There is a single standard in YMDC, it is that there is no weight associated to ringing gw or talking to the guys in store. The reason is that it is subjective and 2nd hand at best. The written GW products and FAQ's are the only word that matters.

Actually that is not how American English really came about. There was a concerted effort to create a separate language in as much as possible from British English.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you force it to lost its armor are you treating the wound as saved?

No model is forced to lose the save. It's what happens normally when you get an unsaved wound with ES. So ES mechanic -> OK.

And in the end the model didn't lose a wound so FNP mechanic -> OK.

^^if only the GW materials words matter then why are we posting words

copper.talos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
If you force it to lost its armor are you treating the wound as saved?

No model is forced to lose the save. It's what happens normally when you get an unsaved wound with ES. So ES mechanic -> OK.

And in the end the model didn't lose a wound so FNP mechanic -> OK.

Does FNP say it only ignores the wound, or does it require you to treat the wound as saved?

It doesn't actually matter for this debate.

rigeld2 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
If you force it to lost its armor are you treating the wound as saved?

No model is forced to lose the save. It's what happens normally when you get an unsaved wound with ES. So ES mechanic -> OK.

And in the end the model didn't lose a wound so FNP mechanic -> OK.

Does FNP say it only ignores the wound, or does it require you to treat the wound as saved?

Entropic strike happens when a model sufferes an unsaved wound, then after that you take a feel no pain save, and if it is saved entropic strike still took place when a model suffered an unsaved wound, but the wound has become saved. example 1 my commander confers furious charge onto his unit when he is alive, does this mean he never confers furious charge cause at some point he will not be alive? the same with entropic strike and feel no pain, the wound is not always unsaved, just as the wound is not always a wound sometimes it is just a hit, so multiple rules can inflict and DO work they just seem silly.

The same with leach life, just because the rule seems silly does not mean it is broken, oh my model has regained wounds but your model has passed feel no pain, at the time of leaching the wound was unsaved, but it has become saved. The logic is intolerable but the wording is infallible.

Logic =/= RAW
Logic == RAI

I agree that a wound is unsaved at the point you have inflicted it as previously mentioned. If an unsaved wound has been inflicted only after a save is made, how does a model with no save suffer an unsaved wound? I believe a wound is unsaved before a save roll is made at the time when you can choose to psychic their ass.

A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?

Cheers

Andrew

copper.talos wrote:
It doesn't actually matter for this debate.

It absolutely matters. Your refusal to answer is taken as you conceding the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alex567 wrote:
The same with leach life, just because the rule seems silly does not mean it is broken, oh my model has regained wounds but your model has passed feel no pain, at the time of leaching the wound was unsaved, but it has become saved. The logic is intolerable but the wording is infallible.

I'm not arguing because it seems silly. I'm arguing because the rules don't agree with you.

If you allow a gained wound or remove an armor save you are not (by definition) treating the wound as saved.
FNP requires you to treat the wound as saved. Therefore you have broken a rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewC wrote:
A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?

Cheers

Andrew

1. The others are treated as saved.

is this thread still goin on?...
it's F'ing simple

Only thing that ignores FNP is double str of the model's toughness or special rules (AP does not take this away)

You can toss your FNP against anything but the said above.
After you get wounded

As for instance a ork nob get shot by a lascannon str 9 the ork being T4 only thing allowed here would be the Cover save(unless he got a inv save) not a fnp

the only way the nob would get fnp out of this is IF he was a on a bike giving him a Toughness 5 and the str 9 is no longer the double thus he only takes one wound and gets his FNP

quack98 wrote:
^^if only the GW materials words matter then why are we posting words

Because we want to analyze the words written by official GW-material to solve weird issues like this.

quack98 wrote:
^I know GW has many levels of organisation, as do most businesses, but as for the worth of anecdotes, you cannot set a single standard. Also when I asked the question everyone (about 20ish people) said it was obviously meant to be given.

I understand that it might be enough for your playgroup, since you were probably all there.
But even the rules in this forum state: "2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on."

What some GW-manager said is not an official source.
Because if that was really the GW-stance on this matter, they could and should reflect that in a FAQ.

That's also why I think they should have a more interactive FAQ!
Instead of bringing out a big edit every few months, they should update their website more frequently with small additions.

^ I understand its not an official source, I was just stating it as a fact, that may or may not have changed the course of the argument.

I agree that they should update the FAQ more frequently, because there are so many flaws in the game, and a lot of the time the FAQ either doesn't make sense, or is just stupid (like getting rid of tau target lock for a month or so and then bringing it back)

quack98 wrote:I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP

I have called multiple times to ask the same question. I have to date received 4 different responses from GW staff, the rules guys even. If they can't give a consistent answer, a random GW shop supervisor isn't likely to get it right either.

phatonic wrote:is this thread still goin on?...
it's F'ing simple

Only thing that ignores FNP is double str of the model's toughness or special rules (AP does not take this away)

You can toss your FNP against anything but the said above.
After you get wounded

As for instance a ork nob get shot by a lascannon str 9 the ork being T4 only thing allowed here would be the Cover save(unless he got a inv save) not a fnp

the only way the nob would get fnp out of this is IF he was a on a bike giving him a Toughness 5 and the str 9 is no longer the double thus he only takes one wound and gets his FNP

Using that interpretation, Double strength does not bypass FnP as it requires the wound to be unsaved, and you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FnP, just like taking those tests. It is written the same as most of the wargear that has the Instant death special rule attached to it.

It is simple. Two special rules are triggered at the same time. The Active player decides the order in which they are resolved. This will lead to some oddities, but is as written in the rulebook. The interpretations both break 1 rule. So using the least amount of broken rules leave no winner. Oh I almost forgot, your way also breaks the multiple special rules affecting the same model, and taking FnP against an instant death weapon. Making your way break 3 rules.

As a "cinematic" edition, The sudden shock as a model is turned to glass(from the hexrifles fluff) and being removed from play after he shrugged off the wound makes a lot of sense.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

quack98 wrote:I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP

I have called multiple times to ask the same question. I have to date received 4 different responses from GW staff, the rules guys even. If they can't give a consistent answer, a random GW shop supervisor isn't likely to get it right either.

phatonic wrote:is this thread still goin on?...
it's F'ing simple

Only thing that ignores FNP is double str of the model's toughness or special rules (AP does not take this away)

You can toss your FNP against anything but the said above.
After you get wounded

As for instance a ork nob get shot by a lascannon str 9 the ork being T4 only thing allowed here would be the Cover save(unless he got a inv save) not a fnp

the only way the nob would get fnp out of this is IF he was a on a bike giving him a Toughness 5 and the str 9 is no longer the double thus he only takes one wound and gets his FNP

Using that interpretation, Double strength does not bypass FnP as it requires the wound to be unsaved, and you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FnP, just like taking those tests. It is written the same as most of the wargear that has the Instant death special rule attached to it.

It is simple. Two special rules are triggered at the same time. The Active player decides the order in which they are resolved. This will lead to some oddities, but is as written in the rulebook. The interpretations both break 1 rule. So using the least amount of broken rules leave no winner. Oh I almost forgot, your way also breaks the multiple special rules affecting the same model, and taking FnP against an instant death weapon. Making your way break 3 rules.

As a "cinematic" edition, The sudden shock as a model is turned to glass(from the hexrifles fluff) and being removed from play after he shrugged off the wound makes a lot of sense.

FNP: when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound it can make a special feel no pain roll (THIS IS NOT A SAVING THROW)
page 35.

aka as the instant death said if a model suffers an unsaved wound from double it's toughness value it's reduced to 0 wounds page 16.

From the FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2590005a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1a.pdf
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

Good night sir. and with that i also say /thread

rigeld2 wrote:

It absolutely matters. Your refusal to answer is taken as you conceding the point.

Erm who is conceding? I know fully well the differences between 5th and 6th. And ignored/treated as saved doesn't matter regarding ES. All the mechanics of ES and FNP can be resolved without a problem at the same time.

copper.talos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It absolutely matters. Your refusal to answer is taken as you conceding the point.

Erm who is conceding? I know fully well the differences between 5th and 6th. And ignored/treated as saved doesn't matter regarding ES. All the mechanics of ES and FNP can be resolved without a problem at the same time.

It absolutely matters.
If you apply ES you've applied something as the result of an unsaved wound.
Passing FNP requires you to treat a wound as saved.

Meaning applying ES would break a rule.

Psyker Hits, Psyker Wounds, Psykers Target either fails its save or doesn't get one.

Unsaved Wound has been caused! Take a Psychic Test...

Passed - Instant Death! Feel No Pain save may not be taken.
Failed - Unsaved Wound caused, you may take your Feel No Pain.

Simple. Don't know why this needed eight pages.

I look at it like this:
If a weapon has ID already attached to it (via double toughness) then FNP is not admissable.

If a weapon has the potential to inflict ID (force weapon) but its is not attached to said wound at the time the wound is inflicted, then you are TFG if you do not give your opponent the opportunity to save his model.

The wound did not have ID attached to it and can only be attached if said wound's save is failed. Since ID is not attached to the wound until after the saving throw is failed, FNP says that you make another check, and if passed treat the failed save as saved. If FNP is failed then you can feel free to make your Psyker test and ID all day long.

I believe that the intention is to give the model or models every chance to stay alive.

This is how we play it and the rules, as the group that I play with, understand them. The FAQ may change that in the future ..... or it may not. I do not know as none of us are writers for GW. We just play the game by their rules.

 AndrewC wrote:
A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?

Cheers

Andrew

one model dies, as you only have one unsaved wound. the other two are saved wounds.

 XT-1984 wrote:
Psyker Hits, Psyker Wounds, Psykers Target either fails its save or doesn't get one.

Unsaved Wound has been caused! Take a Psychic Test...

Passed - Instant Death! No Feel No Pain save may be taken.
Failed - Unsaved Wound caused, you may take your Feel No Pain.

Simple. Don't know why this needed eight pages.

Perhaps if you'd read the 8 pages instead of assuming we're all simpletons, the idea wouldn't escape you.

phatonic wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:

quack98 wrote:I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP

I have called multiple times to ask the same question. I have to date received 4 different responses from GW staff, the rules guys even. If they can't give a consistent answer, a random GW shop supervisor isn't likely to get it right either.

phatonic wrote:is this thread still goin on?...
it's F'ing simple

Only thing that ignores FNP is double str of the model's toughness or special rules (AP does not take this away)

You can toss your FNP against anything but the said above.
After you get wounded

As for instance a ork nob get shot by a lascannon str 9 the ork being T4 only thing allowed here would be the Cover save(unless he got a inv save) not a fnp

the only way the nob would get fnp out of this is IF he was a on a bike giving him a Toughness 5 and the str 9 is no longer the double thus he only takes one wound and gets his FNP

Using that interpretation, Double strength does not bypass FnP as it requires the wound to be unsaved, and you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FnP, just like taking those tests. It is written the same as most of the wargear that has the Instant death special rule attached to it.

It is simple. Two special rules are triggered at the same time. The Active player decides the order in which they are resolved. This will lead to some oddities, but is as written in the rulebook. The interpretations both break 1 rule. So using the least amount of broken rules leave no winner. Oh I almost forgot, your way also breaks the multiple special rules affecting the same model, and taking FnP against an instant death weapon. Making your way break 3 rules.

As a "cinematic" edition, The sudden shock as a model is turned to glass(from the hexrifles fluff) and being removed from play after he shrugged off the wound makes a lot of sense.

FNP: when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound it can make a special feel no pain roll (THIS IS NOT A SAVING THROW)
page 35.

aka as the instant death said if a model suffers an unsaved wound from double it's toughness value it's reduced to 0 wounds page 16.

From the FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2590005a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1a.pdf
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

Good night sir. and with that i also say /thread

That is the point. FnP is not allowed as long as the weapon/model has the rule. Meaning you may not use it even if it requires a trigger to activate. The proponents for taking FnP against Force, and other take a test or suffer Instant Death keep saying that you don't know if it is unsaved until they fail their FnP roll. As such it using that interpretation then it would be as I stated in what you quoted. They refuse to acknowledge that they are using the rule(FnP) to circumvent other rules; Instant Death, and the Active player choosing the order in which rules are resolved. They are arguing that it always goes first because you don't know if it is unsaved until they fail FnP, which would leave the Instant death rule pointless as most of the weapons/models, even the double strength rule, requires an unsaved wound.

rigeld2 wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:
Psyker Hits, Psyker Wounds, Psykers Target either fails its save or doesn't get one.

Unsaved Wound has been caused! Take a Psychic Test...

Passed - Instant Death! No Feel No Pain save may be taken.
Failed - Unsaved Wound caused, you may take your Feel No Pain.

Simple. Don't know why this needed eight pages.

Perhaps if you'd read the 8 pages instead of assuming we're all simpletons, the idea wouldn't escape you.

Not simpletons, just unnecessarily argumentative over something very clearly written.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?

Cheers

Andrew

one model dies, as you only have one unsaved wound. the other two are saved wounds.

But all attacks by that model/unit have Instant death. You now broke the FNP rule.

Might have missread what you said first, but as you mentiond that removed from play thingie that is a whole nother story removed from play is removed from play even if you are a eternal warrior :3 and yes.. double str of ur T will not allow you to take that fnp save as said. (even if you are a eternal warrior stated in the faq but you will only take one wound per unsaved wound) it's up to the saving throw to decide if you live or not. Not the FNP

Also the Force Weapon is activated 'immediately' after an Unsaved Wound is caused. Feel No Pain uses no such terminology, it only says that a model that suffers an unsaved Wound may take an additional save.

If Feel No Pain said "immediately after suffering an unsaved wound" you would have a point. But it doesn't.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I look at it like this:
If a weapon has ID already attached to it (via double toughness) then FNP is not admissable.

If a weapon has the potential to inflict ID (force weapon) but its is not attached to said wound at the time the wound is inflicted, then you are TFG if you do not give your opponent the opportunity to save his model.

The wound did not have ID attached to it and can only be attached if said wound's save is failed. Since ID is not attached to the wound until after the saving throw is failed, FNP says that you make another check, and if passed treat the failed save as saved. If FNP is failed then you can feel free to make your Psyker test and ID all day long.

I believe that the intention is to give the model or models every chance to stay alive.

This is how we play it and the rules, as the group that I play with, understand them. The FAQ may change that in the future ..... or it may not. I do not know as none of us are writers for GW. We just play the game by their rules.

The rule is attached to it at the time of the attack, it just requires a further trigger. FnP says you make a roll for an unsaved wound, as does the triggers for some instant death weapons. It has the rule, you are placing emphasis on a rule over other rules when both have had a satisfactory trigger to begin the rule. By the FAQ simply having the rule on the weapon/model dissallows the use of FNP as they did not state "activated" Instant death, they just said has the instant death rule.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?

Cheers

Andrew

one model dies, as you only have one unsaved wound. the other two are saved wounds.

But all attacks by that model/unit have Instant death. You now broke the FNP rule.

Why, you have 1 unsaved wound,

The other two were saved.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?

Cheers

Andrew

one model dies, as you only have one unsaved wound. the other two are saved wounds.

But all attacks by that model/unit have Instant death. You now broke the FNP rule.

Why, you have 1 unsaved wound,

The other two were saved.

Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.

Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.