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What the guy above said ^

Another thing I would like to point out is the terminology of the two abilities,

Force requires an unsaved would to be inflicted, FnP requires the unsaved wound to be suffered. Now, I can only find this on one page (P25 top right para) and GW has drawn a 'timeline' in which inflicted seems to be delineated to be before suffered.

I know this is not very tangible evidence, but I would ask you all which come first, inflicted or suffered?

Cheers

Andrew

Well the Force universal special rule states you take your Psychic test 'immediately' after causing an Unsaved Wound. Whereas Feel No Pain doesn't.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.

Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.

And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved.

The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds.

FNP itself is a paradox, as it treats unsaved wounds as save therefore negating the need or ability to take FNP on that wound in the first place.

Luckily nothing tells us to re-assess if we could have taken FNP, just what wounds we can use FNP on.

 XT-1984 wrote:
Well the Force universal special rule states you take your Psychic test 'immediately' after causing an Unsaved Wound. Whereas Feel No Pain doesn't.

Please read the whole thread, this has been covered a few pages back. FNP has wording that makes it happen when an unsaved wound is suffered, which would be at the exact time of a failed save, so it does not need the word immediately, the FNP language covers the timing, which is immediate.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.

Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.

And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved.

The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds.

However, you may have fast rolled them in which case which save did you fail? The first or last? In which case you never should have made the other two if it was the first save that failed. Force rule also, as pointed out elsewhere, applies to all attacks that turn. An since all attacks were made at the same initiative step and are considered simultaneous, how can only one attack be considered ID?

Cheers

Andrew

PS Re the timing, which comes first inflicted or suffered?

So when is an unsaved wound suffered/inflicted, before our after you remove 1 Wound from the profile?

 AndrewC wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.

Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.

And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved.

The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds.

However, you may have fast rolled them in which case which save did you fail? The first or last? In which case you never should have made the other two if it was the first save that failed. Force rule also, as pointed out elsewhere, applies to all attacks that turn. An since all attacks were made at the same initiative step and are considered simultaneous, how can only one attack be considered ID?

Cheers

Andrew

PS Re the timing, which comes first inflicted or suffered?

Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves method of Wound allocation should always be used for allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed save.”

You can't fast roll - you must make the tests individually after each failed save.

Seriously people! Read the thread before posting.
It's page 8 and I see people coming with arguments and questions that were already answered in page 4 or 5!

 AndrewC wrote:
PS Re the timing, which comes first inflicted or suffered?

As has been proven a few pages ago, the "inflicted".
"inflicted" even happens before Saving Throws.

If you want to read it yourself: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/499195.page#5166354
The important line would be: "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."
That line, combined with a few others, lead to:
1) Wound inflicted.
2) Saving Throws
3) Wound suffered.

So the answer to this topic is:
1) Force activation.
2) Saving Throws.
3) Feel no Pain.

rigeld2 wrote:

Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves method of Wound allocation should always be used for allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed save.”

You can't fast roll - you must make the tests individually after each failed save.

Okay I missed that, point conceded. How about my other question which comes first, suffered or inflicted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

As has been proven a few pages ago, the "inflicted".
"inflicted" even happens before Saving Throws.

However that refers to wounds and not unsaved wounds(as, no doubt, will be pointed out by Rigeld and DeathLeaper), and no I don't believe that it has been proven and accepted by both sides of this argument, or if it has, please point it out to me?

Cheers

Andrew

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.

Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.

And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved.

The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds.

FNP itself is a paradox, as it treats unsaved wounds as save therefore negating the need or ability to take FNP on that wound in the first place.

Luckily nothing tells us to re-assess if we could have taken FNP, just what wounds we can use FNP on.

 XT-1984 wrote:
Well the Force universal special rule states you take your Psychic test 'immediately' after causing an Unsaved Wound. Whereas Feel No Pain doesn't.

Please read the whole thread, this has been covered a few pages back. FNP has wording that makes it happen when an unsaved wound is suffered, which would be at the exact time of a failed save, so it does not need the word immediately, the FNP language covers the timing, which is immediate.

Um, yes it did. The rule is present. It might not have been active, but it is there. As per GW if the weapon/attack has the rule FnP may not be used. As written in their FAQ.

If Force is not active the ID rule is not there.

Did the three wounds cause ID? (No, then FNP can be taken)

2 passed, and those are now saved wounds. so we only have 1 unsaved wound at this point.

You still miss the point. All attacks on the turn Force is activated, at that initiative step have Instant Death. Even the two that you took a FNP against. The paradox is in your head. FnP is still subject to the rule stating that the active player chooses the order in which two or more special rules are resolved. Not FNP always goes first. It is entirely within the scope of the rules to lose your armor, but not be removed as a casualty, or be removed from play removing you FNP rule as the model no longer exists in the game, or even heal itself when the target doesn't die. That is what the exceptional rule was put there for. Remember you are only treating it as saved, it is not saved.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
You still miss the point. All attacks on the turn Force is activated, at that initiative step have Instant Death. Even the two that you took a FNP against.

I got the point, but it is a non issue. Rolling FNP was legal at the time you rolled FNP.

The paradox is in your head.

So FNP does not remove the condition to take FNP in the first place?

The Paradox is real.

FnP is still subject to the rule stating that the active player chooses the order in which two or more special rules are resolved. Not FNP always goes first. It is entirely within the scope of the rules to lose your armor, but not be removed as a casualty, or be removed from play removing you FNP rule as the model no longer exists in the game, or even heal itself when the target doesn't die. That is what the exceptional rule was put there for. Remember you are only treating it as saved, it is not saved.

Treat as save = saved wound.

The instant an unsaved wound happens you are allowed a FNP roll. If you do not take that roll because hexrifle removal, you have broken the FNP rule that says you get to take a FNP roll.

Treat as saved=saved
You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.

The paradox is created by you

The rules both happen at the same time, the instant you take an unsaved wound. Nothing is broken as when two rules occur at the same time the active player chooses the order in which they resolve. My turn I activate the Hexrifle/force ability and succeed your FNP doesn't work as the one disallows any save to be taken and the other is instant death. No rule is broken as both special rules disallow the use of FNP one with no saves of any kind(which would include treat as saved by your words), and the other as it is active Instant death. Your turn it would work as you describe.

Any other interpretation would lead to having to take FNP before instant death as most instant death weapons, and the double strength rule both require an unsaved wound, and you don't know if it is unsaved until you make your FNP roll.

again people think its ok to break the special rules regarding wounds that inflict Instant death
lets use the strict words out of the BRB,
because working on the premise that inflict = suffered is just that, a premise, not RAW

my RAW is that inflict = inflict, and suffered = suffered


You only, EVER, get one saving throw. FNP is not a saving throw, even if it IS saved, after unsaved wounds have been inflicted and when suffered, its still not a saving throw, so that may not be your RAI but it is the RAW. show me where it says you get to take more then one saving throw.

After failing your one saving throw you have unsaved wounds to deal with, that may inflict special rules in addition to their wounds. The wound has special rules, that are applied to a model, model has FNP whch unless stated otherwise is immune to the wound and its special rules (on a 5+). The only exception and is the instant death rule, not ES, not LL , ect ect,

in the rules of FNP pg 35 BRB "note that feel no pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death"

so the attacking model rolls to hit, rolls to wound, the defending model rolls to save that wound, then fails, now the attacking model has inflicted an unsaved wound + any special rules associated with that unsaved wound,

then defending model then suffers the unsaved wound and any special rules associated with that wound. if the defending model has FNP it gets a bonus roll, that is not a save, that can negate all wounds that do not have the instant death Special rule, so they and their special rules, are "treated as saved" IE nothing bad happens after all (this is why ES and so on are not broken, their special rules DO go away because their wound went away, because it does not inflict instant death. But It specifically does not get this roll against pg 35 BRB "note that feel no pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death", other special rules may need a FAQ, that is another thread entirely. but not instant death.

pg 36 BRB force "If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a warp charge point and taking a psychic test (see pg 67), if the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp charge points to spend then there is no additional effect. if the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule (see pg 38) deny the witch rolls cannot be taken by force weapons."

now lets go over feel no pain pg 35 BRB "when a model with this special rules suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw). rol a D6 for each time an unsaved wound is suffered.. On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On the 5+, the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved.

Note that feel not pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death"

even in the rules for FNP it explicitly makes that possessive distinction between an inflicted wound and a suffered wound.

the attacking model is in the process of inflicting, the defending model the process of suffering, of the wounds.

the attacking models special rules, like force, apply to it inflicting those wounds, not to your model suffering those wounds

cant suffer wounds, that were not inflicted, and part of that attackers process of inflicting wounds is applying special rules to them.

so basically, its one of those " MSS versus challenges" type questions; where two abilities effect each other in some way but trigger at the same time. If that's the case it's up to the controlling player to decide the order of events. If its your turn, you can chose to take your FNP rolls first, and if its the opponents turn, he can choose to go with his force rolls first. Simple. However, if striking at different Initiatives such as a GK with a halberd with the rest with swords. The way the force weapon works if the halberds pass their force test on unsaved wounds, then the swords will have the ID rule on any wounds they cause instantly, so FNP would be negated entirely regardless of controlling player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Treat as saved=saved
You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.

re-read the FNP rule, its specifically states it is not a saving throw, however the wound negated is to be treated as having been saved. If it was a saving throw you couldn't use it legally at all as you can only take one "saving throw" per wound.

Ok so question. Ignoring FNP for the moment. Eldrad and a Guardian are in combat with some GK's (one with a Halberd, the rest with swords). The model with the Halberd deals one wound. The Guardian being the only model in base contact at this point is allocated the wound. When is the test to activate the Force Weapons, before or after the Guardian loses his only Wound?

 Happyjew wrote:
Ok so question. Ignoring FNP for the moment. Eldrad and a Guardian are in combat with some GK's (one with a Halberd, the rest with swords). The model with the Halberd deals one wound. The Guardian being the only model in base contact at this point is allocated the wound. When is the test to activate the Force Weapons, before or after the Guardian loses his only Wound?

the GK inflicts an unsaved wound as soon as the defending model fails a save, then the force rule is immediately done, triggered by that inflicted wound, if it applies instant death, the model cannot apply its special rule, FNP, to that suffered wound, since the inflicted wound had the instant death rule.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Treat as saved=saved
You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.

Seriously re-read FNP. It is NOT a save, but the result of the FNP roll, if successful, treats the wound as having been saved.

So if you pass your Armor/Cover/Invuln then the wound is saved.

If you pass your FNP then the wound is saved.

Basically if your FNP roll is successful it is exactly the same as making a successful Armor/Cover/Invuln save.

Ok so question. Ignoring FNP for the moment. Eldrad and a Guardian are in combat with some GK's (one with a Halberd, the rest with swords). The model with the Halberd deals one wound. The Guardian being the only model in base contact at this point is allocated the wound. When is the test to activate the Force Weapons, before or after the Guardian loses his only Wound?

it follows the same rules as multiple Initiative combats. I6 halberds roll to hit, to wound, then saves are taken as normal. Any unsaved wounds then are rolled on for the Force SR. If it passes, the entire units weapons are ID, if it fails then no more force weapon rolls are made for the swords if they have any unsaved wounds when it reaches their I step.

the question here is if you roll for FNP before or after the psychic test for ID. Which is decided by the controlling player as I stated before. However, its an exception being the halberd and the sword at different I values example I also previously posted that can change that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, i've seen it posted for some odd reason in this thread that FNP didn't count the wound as saved. If that was the case, you just broke the game. You outright killed a model without hurting him. What, did the GK Glare the enemy to death? Or more likely, told the enemy he had the blessing of Mattius Wardicus and the enemy just fell over dead by an aneurism from pure concentrated rage.

In 5th edition you ignored the injury (whatever that means). In 6th edition you treat the wound as saved.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Treat as saved=saved
You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.

Seriously re-read FNP. It is NOT a save, but the result of the FNP roll, if successful, treats the wound as having been saved.

So if you pass your Armor/Cover/Invuln then the wound is saved.

If you pass your FNP then the wound is saved.

Basically if your FNP roll is successful it is exactly the same as making a successful Armor/Cover/Invuln save.

Funny you were the one that said Treat as saved =saved. You also argue that assumed BS5 is BS5. Treat as=Assumed. You argue it to match what you want, not what it says.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Funny you were the one that said Treat as saved =saved.

How is that not true, they both have the same effect.

After you make your FNP roll you have to treat the wound as saved. This is exactly the same as if the unit made a Armor/Cover/Invuln save.

If there is a flaw with this logic please let me knwo where you think the flawed logic is.

You also argue that assumed BS5 is BS5. Treat as=Assumed.

Who mentioned BS5?

You argue it to match what you want, not what it says.

Is this a joke, because I do not understand how you came to this conclusion.

Please do not assign motive when none exists, it is just rude.

If it were a save than you could not use it against a Hexrifle, as it disallows saves of any kind(which would include the treat as saved).

The flaw in the logic is that FNP>every other special rule printed.

It activates at the point of an unsaved wound. All other special rules that activate at that point have an equal chance of being used. They are activated in the order the active player chooses. Which can leave a guy with no armor, but alive. remove the chance for a FNP roll altogether do to the wound becoming Instant death. A model healing itself. etc........

Now in your turn it can work the other way, goes before Force, instant death tests, ES, etc..... I do not dispute this, however you dispute the section above, and thus break the exceptional rule.

The BS5 is from the Seeker missile discussion, it is the same thing not BS5 just assumed(treat as) BS5. Where you are arguing from the other side, in that it is BS5 and is affected by HtH, which, since it is only treat as/assumed, it is not. Treating it as saved is not a save, and neither is an assumed BS5 actually BS5.

The last bit is me getting a bit frustrated, I am sorry for that. I normally censor myself better. I have a lot going on at this time, moving, new job, and my cousin passed away far to early. So again sorry for picking a pointless bit to poke at you, it was uncalled for on my part.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
If it were a save than you could not use it against a Hexrifle, as it disallows saves of any kind(which would include the treat as saved).

You are not understanding what I am saying.

Treated as saved = the same effect as an Armor/Cover/Invuln save. AKA if you pass your FNP roll you now have a saved wound just like you do when you pass an Armor/Cover/Invuln save.

That part I get. (your way/my way just used for example purposes)

The part I don't is how you justify it being(your way)

Hit
Wound
Fail Save
FnP
Any other rule

The way I read the rules(my way)

Hit
Wound
Fail Save
Special rules in the order the Active player decides

Both ways breaks exactly one rule. Your way breaks the exceptional rule(which does cover activating multiple special rules, not just making both players do something), my way breaks FNP, in as much that it may not be able to be used, and doesn't counter a previous rule.

Just like you won't go back and remove the other models at the same initiative step that gained Instant death, when all wounds by the squad at that step have it. Why should we have to go back and undo our rule where we gained a wound, removed your armor, or removed a model from play?

 megatrons2nd wrote:
That part I get. (your way/my way just used for example purposes)

The part I don't is how you justify it being(your way)

Hit
Wound
Fail Save
FnP
Any other rule

The way I read the rules(my way)

Hit
Wound
Fail Save
Special rules in the order the Active player decides

Both ways breaks exactly one rule. Your way breaks the exceptional rule(which does cover activating multiple special rules, not just making both players do something), my way breaks FNP, in as much that it may not be able to be used, and doesn't counter a previous rule.

Just like you won't go back and remove the other models at the same initiative step that gained Instant death, when all wounds by the squad at that step have it. Why should we have to go back and undo our rule where we gained a wound, removed your armor, or removed a model from play?

IMO, playing by Exceptions would be the fairest and most balanced option.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Treat as saved=saved
You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.

Seriously re-read FNP. It is NOT a save, but the result of the FNP roll, if successful, treats the wound as having been saved.

So if you pass your Armor/Cover/Invuln then the wound is saved.

If you pass your FNP then the wound is saved.

Basically if your FNP roll is successful it is exactly the same as making a successful Armor/Cover/Invuln save.

Okay, if what I am seeing is correct then before applying any special rules to an unsaved Wound you must first see if FNP ignores the unsaved wound by causing it to be saved. Is that correct?

If this is in fact your correlation then please explain how ID works against this?

"Instant Death: Unsaved Wounds Inflicted by an attack with this special rule automatically inflict Instant Death, regardless of the victim's Toughness(see page 16). (Page 38, Bottom Middle, Little Rule Book).

"Instant Death: If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness or greater(After Modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a Casualty." (Page 16, Middle Left, Little Rule Book).

Based on your assertion, neither Double Toughness nor the ID Special Rule will take effect unless FNP has been failed. This argument causes a paradox in the rules.

"Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death." (Page 35, Top Right, Little Rule Book).

If FNP must be rolled for after an unsaved wound is suffered, regardless of the special rules that may or may not be attached to the unsaved wound; At the same time FNP rolls are not allowed to be rolled because of the Special rules attached to the unsaved wound, How is this resolved? Or can it be?

When is an Unsaved Wound with the ID Special Rule inflicted? When is that same unsaved Wound suffered?

Is the Question of when is an Unsaved Wound Inflicted/Caused versus When is an Unsaved Wound Suffered not at the heart of this debate?

Please enlighten me as I truly wish to see the error of my logic.

The FNP rule specifically says it can not be taken against wounds that cause ID, therefore your conclusions are not correct.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
If it were a save than you could not use it against a Hexrifle, as it disallows saves of any kind(which would include the treat as saved).

You are not understanding what I am saying.

Treated as saved = the same effect as an Armor/Cover/Invuln save. AKA if you pass your FNP roll you now have a saved wound just like you do when you pass an Armor/Cover/Invuln save.

So then this is incorrect?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FNP rule specifically says it can not be taken against wounds that cause ID, therefore your conclusions are not correct.

Then a FNP roll is not =/= a saved wound? is this correct?