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Not at all.

If you were successful on the FNP roll then that is treated just like you were successful on an Armor/Cover/Invuln save roll.

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.

Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.

And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved.

The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds.

However, you may have fast rolled them in which case which save did you fail? The first or last? In which case you never should have made the other two if it was the first save that failed. Force rule also, as pointed out elsewhere, applies to all attacks that turn. An since all attacks were made at the same initiative step and are considered simultaneous, how can only one attack be considered ID?

Cheers

Andrew

PS Re the timing, which comes first inflicted or suffered?

Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves method of Wound allocation should always be used for allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed save.”

You can't fast roll - you must make the tests individually after each failed save.

I have double checked this FAQ and found it to be correct.

For the sake of argument,(Even though I do not believe that Inflicted = Suffered) let us say that, Inflicted unsaved Wounds are the same as Suffered unsaved Wounds, which happen at the exact same time.

Force activation happens immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted/suffered. Where as FNP happens after an unsaved wound is inflicted/Suffered.
Which would confirm that regardless of who's turn it was, Force would always go first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all.

If you were successful on the FNP roll then that is treated just like you were successful on an Armor/Cover/Invuln save roll.

So then it could be used against ID and double Toughness as both of those require a unsaved wound to activate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all.

If you were successful on the FNP roll then that is treated just like you were successful on an Armor/Cover/Invuln save roll.

Okay then, so a FNP roll is conditional, and based on what special rules may or may not be active at the time the unsaved Wound is inflicted/suffered.

So is a inflicted unsaved wound the same as a Suffered unsaved wound?

BLADERIKER wrote:
I have double checked this FAQ and found it to be correct.

For the sake of argument,(Even though I do not believe that Inflicted = Suffered) let us say that, Inflicted unsaved Wounds are the same as Suffered unsaved Wounds, which happen at the exact same time.

Force activation happens immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted/suffered. Where as FNP happens after an unsaved wound is inflicted/Suffered.
Which would confirm that regardless of who's turn it was, Force would always go first.

Please read the whole thread, this has been covered a few pages back. FNP has wording that makes it happen when an unsaved wound is suffered, which would be at the exact time of a failed save, so it does not need the word immediately, the FNP language covers the timing, which is immediate.

This thread is hilarious.
ID is only applied after the force weapon is activated.
So ID vs FNP isn't in question here.

The only question is which gets triggered first, the activation of the force weapon, or the roll for FNP. If it's force, force wins,
if it's FNP, FNP wins that is the only question presented here.

Force: PG.37

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved 'Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it

FNP: PG.35

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved 'W'ound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)... - treat it as having been saved.

Clearly stated in the last sentence, if FNP is taken first it counts as being saved and therefore would not let the force weapon be activated.
However what is not clear is which roll gets to go first.
"when a model fails, it can make a special FNP roll" VS "Inflicts a wound, he can immediately choose to activate it."
Which is faster, when this happens do this or immediately upon inflicting a wound.
Well we can't compare that yet.
Which happens first, the wound is inflicted? or the wound is suffered?

I don't have an answer to this since there is no where in the entire BRB that compares Suffered to Inflicted.

Now something that was brought up by someone earlier was Entropic Strike:

Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle

The FAQ states that FNP counters this, and the options can look at it this way.
The armor save is removed, the feel no pain save is rolled, if passed they retroactively get their armor save back.
or
The FNP roll gets made first and the wound is not suffered. This of course still doesn't use the word inflicted. Time for someone to go find me the word inflicted in a codex that is obviously countered by FNP.
Until the question of which happens first, inflicted or suffered then we don't have an answer.
If it's the same time then based on the ruling for entropic strike... FNP can save a model from a force weapon that has not been activated earlier the phase (grey knights can do this btw for initiative 1 weapons from their standard initiative weapons if the score a wound on any other model that fails all saves (even if it is only a 1 wound model))

again, the rules as written themselves are very clear, you cannot take FNP on a suffered wound, when that wound that inflicted instant death. they make it quite clear that wounds that inflict instant death comes before feel no pain on a model


some wounds have special rules, instant death is one of them. special wound rules are applied to the wound when it is inflicted (by and regard less of time line, FNP uses that specific wording "inflicts instant death" so where ever and when ever a wound inflicts instant death, the models special rule FNP cannot be applied. FNP can be used to "count as saved" not save, any other rule.
the FNP special rule says specifically, not when a wound inflicts instant death, and the force rule specifically states that it now inflicts instant death, not that the models suffer instant death.

the force rule is all there to determine if that unsaved wound inflicts instant death, if you deny the opponent to make that activation check immediately when he inflicts unsaved wound, you have not determined what kind of wounds they are, and have broken the rule. the wounds either cause instant death., or nothing else, both results are determined by psychic test. you make the test to see what kind of wound is inflicted, and then go from there, fnp is NOT a save and only counts as saved after it has been successfully rolled, assuming no ID on the wound

again, RAW both say force is done immediately on infliction, and FNP is done when suffered, unless the wound inflicted instant death. GW is making a distinction between two time zones, inflict, and suffer, and the FNP is in the suffer zone, specifically saying NO to wounds from the inflicted zone.
again, RAW inflict=inflict suffered=sufferd

we cannot say they are the same word, they are not

The instant death special rule uses inflicts an unsaved wound, the double strength says when a model suffers an unsaved wound. Force uses inflicts, The Hexrifle and the huskblade both use model suffers. The flesh Gauntlet says model takes an unsaved wound. The wraithcannon and D-canon simply inflicts instant death on a to wound roll of 6. Entropic Strike uses suffers, as does pinning.

It appears that "Takes", "Inflicts", and "Suffers" are the same time. As such FNP goes at the same time as every other special rule, as I see nothing that says it ignores the exceptional rule, or anything that says it ignores other special rules, only an unsaved wound. I also do not see anything that would allow it to return a model to play.

I have only found a few items that remove a model, Failing Death or glory(which FNP can't save you from), the Hexrifle, and the Crucible of Malediction(both of which are argued to be able to FNP away).

Hence the reason why for arguments sake I used them as them meaning the same thing. Which inflicting and suffering are not the same.

If the Attacking player does not inflict a wound then there is no reason to make a save.

Also if a Defending players unit does not suffer a wound then there is no reason to make a save.

If a Attacking player succeeds in wounding then he has inflicted a wound, for which a saving throw (if allowed) can be taken against.

If a Defending players unit suffers a wound, it can (if allowed) make a saving throw against the wound.

If the save is passed then the Attacking players inflicted wound is not suffered by the Defending players unit.

If the save is failed the the Attacking player has inflicted an unsaved wound on the Defending player unit.

If the save could not be taken at all, then the Attacking player inflicts an unsaved wound at the same time as the defending player suffers an unsaved wound.

So Force activates immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted. Where as FNP activates after(But not immediately After) a players unit suffers an unsaved wound.

Thus the Force Activation psychic test will happen before FNP can be rolled for. This is because FNP is conditional, and it cannot be used against any unsaved wound that inflicts ID. There is a 25% chance on a normal GKSS that Force activation will fail. However, if the Psychic test is failed then FNP can be taken as normal.

BLADERIKER wrote:

So Force activates immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted. Where as FNP activates after(But not immediately After) a players unit suffers an unsaved wound.

Thus the Force Activation psychic test will happen before FNP can be rolled for. This is because FNP is conditional, and it cannot be used against any unsaved wound that inflicts ID. There is a 25% chance on a normal GKSS that Force activation will fail. However, if the Psychic test is failed then FNP can be taken as normal.

The problem is there is no rule in FNP that gives it any special dispensation to automatically go before any other special rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jegsar wrote:

Now something that was brought up by someone earlier was Entropic Strike:

Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle

The FAQ states that FNP counters this, and the options can look at it this way.
The armor save is removed, the feel no pain save is rolled, if passed they retroactively get their armor save back.
or
The FNP roll gets made first and the wound is not suffered. This of course still doesn't use the word inflicted. Time for someone to go find me the word inflicted in a codex that is obviously countered by FNP.
Until the question of which happens first, inflicted or suffered then we don't have an answer.
If it's the same time then based on the ruling for entropic strike... FNP can save a model from a force weapon that has not been activated earlier the phase (grey knights can do this btw for initiative 1 weapons from their standard initiative weapons if the score a wound on any other model that fails all saves (even if it is only a 1 wound model))

Which FAQ? I don't see one in the Necron about FNP saving armor.

 jegsar wrote:
This thread is hilarious.
ID is only applied after the force weapon is activated.
So ID vs FNP isn't in question here.

The only question is which gets triggered first, the activation of the force weapon, or the roll for FNP. If it's force, force wins,
if it's FNP, FNP wins that is the only question presented here.

Force: PG.37

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved 'Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it

FNP: PG.35

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved 'W'ound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)... - treat it as having been saved.

Clearly stated in the last sentence, if FNP is taken first it counts as being saved and therefore would not let the force weapon be activated.
However what is not clear is which roll gets to go first.
"when a model fails, it can make a special FNP roll" VS "Inflicts a wound, he can immediately choose to activate it."
Which is faster, when this happens do this or immediately upon inflicting a wound.
Well we can't compare that yet.
Which happens first, the wound is inflicted? or the wound is suffered?

I don't have an answer to this since there is no where in the entire BRB that compares Suffered to Inflicted.

Now something that was brought up by someone earlier was Entropic Strike:

Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle

The FAQ states that FNP counters this, and the options can look at it this way.
The armor save is removed, the feel no pain save is rolled, if passed they retroactively get their armor save back.
or
The FNP roll gets made first and the wound is not suffered. This of course still doesn't use the word inflicted. Time for someone to go find me the word inflicted in a codex that is obviously countered by FNP.
Until the question of which happens first, inflicted or suffered then we don't have an answer.
If it's the same time then based on the ruling for entropic strike... FNP can save a model from a force weapon that has not been activated earlier the phase (grey knights can do this btw for initiative 1 weapons from their standard initiative weapons if the score a wound on any other model that fails all saves (even if it is only a 1 wound model))

ES, FNP, Force Activation...ect may all occur on a unsaved wound, but only one of them is tested immediately after the wound is unsaved. If this was a case of FNP stating in its rule that its roll was taken Immediately after an unsaved wound was suffered then there would be a true conflict between the FNP and the Force Special rules, as both would state that they activated Immediately. At this time, that is not the case.

Also as FNP can negate ES by saving the wound, thus causing the ES effect to be negated after the fact(Which imo FNP would come first); Why cannot Force negate FNP in the same way. Is not, what is true for one true for the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:

BLADERIKER wrote:

So Force activates immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted. Where as FNP activates after(But not immediately After) a players unit suffers an unsaved wound.

Thus the Force Activation psychic test will happen before FNP can be rolled for. This is because FNP is conditional, and it cannot be used against any unsaved wound that inflicts ID. There is a 25% chance on a normal GKSS that Force activation will fail. However, if the Psychic test is failed then FNP can be taken as normal.

The problem is there is no rule in FNP that gives it any special dispensation to automatically go before any other special rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jegsar wrote:

Now something that was brought up by someone earlier was Entropic Strike:

Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle

The FAQ states that FNP counters this, and the options can look at it this way.
The armor save is removed, the feel no pain save is rolled, if passed they retroactively get their armor save back.
or
The FNP roll gets made first and the wound is not suffered. This of course still doesn't use the word inflicted. Time for someone to go find me the word inflicted in a codex that is obviously countered by FNP.
Until the question of which happens first, inflicted or suffered then we don't have an answer.
If it's the same time then based on the ruling for entropic strike... FNP can save a model from a force weapon that has not been activated earlier the phase (grey knights can do this btw for initiative 1 weapons from their standard initiative weapons if the score a wound on any other model that fails all saves (even if it is only a 1 wound model))

Which FAQ? I don't see one in the Necron about FNP saving armor.

Just curious. in the Red text, are you saying that there is nothing that makes FNP have priority over other Special rules?

@Jegsar: Which FAQ are you looking at. please cite page and section of the FAQ if your going to make such a statement to better back your argument.

If you read this scratch that out.
As far as the FAQ, that was earlier in this thread and was not found by myself I am sorry and that FAQ doesn't seem to exist so we don't know about ES.

I reread suffering though pg 15 & 16.
Allocate wounds... take saves based on allocated wounds (this part we agree upon)

pg. 16 Armour Saves

If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a wound.

This states the order is if you failed an armour save then you suffer a wound.

FNP

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded ...
On a 4 or less, you must take the wound as normal.

This means the order is Suffer then Take. Inflict i am still working on. This adds to the proof Suffer is before Take and Suffer is not equal to Take so there is no reason to assume Suffer is the same as inflict.

As far as double strength it checked at the suffered stuff for double strength to reduce it to 0 wounds.

If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0'Wounds and removed as a casualty.

but the ID special states that it ignores the condition of double strength but this is still checked after an unsaved wound, meaning during the suffered phase.

comparing these two, when and if seem to happen during "suffered an unsaved wound" stage.
If goes before when. Where does inflict fit in though?

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a Force weapon .. If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death

This indicates that ID is applied to the inflicted unsaved wound after the wound was inflicted, meaning it is retroactive. I still don't know when Infliction occurs but it clearly states when suffered and takes occurs. Suffered occurs after failing the saving throw.
As a side note Nemesis force weapons use the word "unsaved wounds are caused" so we have even another word to deal with.

THis is (finally) covered in the FAQ. Force activation comes first.

Cool. One more issue resolved.

Though I am sad that the answer was "X comes first" instead of going the route of the "Beginning of Turn" question.
Saying; "They happen at the same time, so the player whose turn it is decides the order" would have been more consistent.

At last!

I'm more annoyed by the fact that I need 2 6's to hit a flyer with seeker missiles, but thats another story.

Andrew

Hey I'll take it! anyone notice that vector strike now says NO COVER SAVE! Holy smokes BATMAN!

Indeed it is:

Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.

Huzzahhh!

Followed the fluff as expected. Who's excited to read pages on range now !!!!

Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.


again, no clarification of the rules was needed, but some people dont read right, inflicted = before suffered,

eitehr way, the answer is written in stone now,

That is not the first time an FaQ has changed a rule, but at least it has been answered.

Time for this thread to be locked as the question has been definitively answered.