Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, I've transitioned away from in Reserve. I agree that they are in reserve. But do they count for the 50%. And here is why I would argue they don't (again, because this is going to come up).

Reserve Rules under Preparing Reserves:

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half their units (rounding up) keeping them as reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."

Rules under Deployment Go "Determine Warlord Traits" and the "Deploy Forces". Under Deploy Forces is the Following"

"Roll off to see which player chooses whether to deploy first or second. The player that goes first then places his entire army on the table in his deployment zone"....etc...

Deathwing Assault says "Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn."

So from a logical standpoint it would go Warlord Trait, DWA, Deploy Forces. And so once deployment is beginning DWA must deepstrike and don't have the option for normal deployment and so would fall into must start the game in reserve.

Thoughts?

Except you still have a choice to include them in reserves or not - they are never required to start in reserves, just by the time you get to "normal" deployment they may already be there. THat hasnt meant they "must always" start in reserve, as I can prove that they dont always start in reserves.


They would also count for the 50% limit as they are still part of your forces, even though they go into reserves earlier than usual

Theres another thread I read this week that pertains to your question Hulk and I'll add the premise here.

This is of course assuming TDA in DA follows same rules as all other marine codexes. It states units in TDA may always arrive via DS. Does this in turn override the 50% reserve rule as codex trumps rulebook and TDA rules state "may always?" In essence could an army comprised of Draigo + all paladins start 100% in reserve and arrive via DS because their armor rules state they may always arrive via DS? Im assuming of course that DA TDA will be following the same rules and DWA will tie into TDA rules.

Yes, of course it does. "may always" is specific enough to trump "may not"

This has nothing to do wityh DA, who do not have the same language

(An all driago and paladin army 100% in reserves of course auto loses end of game turn 1)

So by RAW you guys are saying that normal TDA rules mean you don't count toward the 50% of units in reserve?

 Hulksmash wrote:
So by RAW you guys are saying that normal TDA rules mean you don't count toward the 50% of units in reserve?

No, which is why i didnt say that

They may always start in reserve, so any rule preventing them from going in reserve is overridden
Nothing says they do not count towards the limit, so they may prevent other units from entering reserves

Ok, cool, it was just the way that was worded. I was going to be a bit shocked.

I still think you guys are off about the DWA counting but we'll see. Thanks for the feedback guys.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
So by RAW you guys are saying that normal TDA rules mean you don't count toward the 50% of units in reserve?

No, which is why i didnt say that

They may always start in reserve, so any rule preventing them from going in reserve is overridden
Nothing says they do not count towards the limit, so they may prevent other units from entering reserves

Agreed, units in TDA count towards the 50%, but they may go over the 50%

For instance Draigo, 2 strike marine squads and 3 Paladin squads are in an army. I want to keep 1 Strike in reserves and all the Paladins. I cannot do this because the 3 paladin squads have already pushed past my 50% limit. The Strike squad must start on the table, however, the 3 Paladin squads may still go into reserve which is over 50% but due to TDA they are allowed.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ok, cool, it was just the way that was worded. I was going to be a bit shocked.

I still think you guys are off about the DWA counting but we'll see. Thanks for the feedback guys.

They count because, while for THAT game they start in reserves, they do not ALWAYS start in reserves. ALWAYS is fairly absolute.

So if TDA has the same write-up in the DA book then you can in fact start an entire DW army in reserve and DWA turn 1?

IF it does, however from memory chaos do not, so you would not be able to.

Because you have a choice to either Deathwing assault or not they will count towards your on the table/off the table reserve numbers.

Having read the rule several times I'd say no there not in reserves, you dont have to be in reserves to deep strike as several wargear options state, the deathwing assault rule does not state "units held in reserve may/must" like other terminators do, when we look at the rest of the book that allows units to deep strike it defers to the main rulebook, where as dw assault does not. Also that the unit is not actually deep striking as per the normal rules, they are making a dw assault that uses the deep strike rules ( scatter etc.). It even goes on to say there is no need to roll for reserves, my guess is this is because thereupon actually in reserves.

Now this is not the way I will play it as im a rai player not raw and I think it may be an oversight that needs to be faq'd

They must be either in reserves or deployed as those are the only options the BRB gives.
Since DW Assault doesn't dictate a change from that restriction it's still in place.

Formosa - it states they Deep Strike. Deep Striking most certainly requires you to be in reserves

Being placed according to the deepstrike rules, like GoI, bypasses this - as explained

So no, they ARE in reserves, and ARE subject to the 50% rule.

It did change it though, a storm bolter is not a bolter and deathwing assault is not deep strikeing, they just use similar rules.

Besides that.. Isn't this a permissive ruleset anyway? So unless it says it it, it doesn't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nos: you certainly do not have to be reserves to deep strike, plenty of examples exist

 Formosa wrote:
It did change it though, a storm bolter is not a bolter and deathwing assault is not deep strikeing, they just use similar rules.

Besides that.. Isn't this a permissive ruleset anyway? So unless it says it it, it doesn't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nos: you certainly do not have to be reserves to deep strike, plenty of examples exist

So if they're not in reserves, they're deployed. Right?
Where's the permission to remove them from the table and deep strike them? It's not in DWA.

Looks to me like there held off the board in deathwing assault, ready to come in when you decide they come in ( turn 1/2). Deathwing assault is its own rule, who says it's actually got anything to do with reserves?

 Formosa wrote:
Looks to me like there held off the board in deathwing assault, ready to come in when you decide they come in ( turn 1/2). Deathwing assault is its own rule, who says it's actually got anything to do with reserves?

Because the rule book requires all units to either be deployed or in Reserves.
DWA doesn't exclude the nominated units from that requirement.
So you have 2 choices - they're in Reserves (and this makes sense based on the rules in DWA) or they're deployed (and DWA breaks as how can they arrive if they're already deployed?).

No the rulebook does not state that you must be in reserves to deep strike, that is the issue here, if it did then this discussion wouldn't 've happening, also general rule is you must e deployed on the board, specific dw assault says you may be put
Into dw assault, this acts like reserves, but is not reserves ( yet)

They are in reserve. Deathwing Assault does not give an exception to this, and as such, they are placed in reserves.

Since they are not also given a specific exception to the 50% reserve rule, they also count towards the 50% limit for Reserves.

For me its the difference between may and must when it comes to the 50% thing.
D/pods and flyers must start in reserve so don't count.
Temies (inc DW) may use the D/S (DWA) rules and then start in reserve so therefore would count.
So yes for me they count towards that.

Also are they not always in reserve if you don't deploy them?.

IMHO I feel DWA just means you essentially ignore the first 3 paragraphs of the arriving from reserves rule (pg124). But the rest of it still applies.

Just my 2p worth.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ok, cool, it was just the way that was worded. I was going to be a bit shocked.

I still think you guys are off about the DWA counting but we'll see. Thanks for the feedback guys.

They count because, while for THAT game they start in reserves, they do not ALWAYS start in reserves. ALWAYS is fairly absolute.

ALWAYS is also not a word used in the rules in question, so I'm not sure why you are hinging your argument so heavily upon it. Said rules read:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so"

In a game where they have been declared as making a Deathwing Assault, the terminators are most certainly units that must start the game in reserve, because to not start them in reserve would break the Deathwing Assault rules.

They do not have to use Deathwing Assault, though, and therefore they do not always have to be in Reserve.

If the model has no choice, like a Drop Pod or a Flyer, than it does not count against the reserve limit. However, the Terminators do.

Probably needs a FAQ for 100% clarification. Hopefully it will be quick, like the Chaos Space Marines one.

 Formosa wrote:
No the rulebook does not state that you must be in reserves to deep strike, that is the issue here, if it did then this discussion wouldn't 've happening,

i didnt say it did?

also general rule is you must e deployed on the board, specific dw assault says you may be put
Into dw assault, this acts like reserves, but is not reserves ( yet)

No, the general rule is that you're either in reserves or deployed.
DWA doesn't exempt you from that. Therefore you're either in reserves or deployed.
Since you're not deployed, what are you?

Crazyterran wrote:
They do not have to use Deathwing Assault, though, and therefore they do not always have to be in Reserve.

If the model has no choice, like a Drop Pod or a Flyer, than it does not count against the reserve limit. However, the Terminators do.

Probably needs a FAQ for 100% clarification. Hopefully it will be quick, like the Chaos Space Marines one.

Can't have it both ways. IF they are in reserve then by the time you would determine whether they are allowed to deploy normally or in must go in reserve they must go in reserve to meet the DWA requirements and so wouldn't count for the 50%. If they are not in Reserve then they dont' count toward the 50%. So either way, they don't count toward the 50%.

Please bear in mind the order in which things happen. DWA happens directly after Warlord traits and before the deployment roll is taken. By the time you deploy your army the Deathwing squad must start in reserve and doesn't have the option to deploy regularly.

Crazyterran wrote:
They do not have to use Deathwing Assault, though, and therefore they do not always have to be in Reserve.

There's that word "always" again...

it doesn't matter that there are situations where the Deathwing can deploy on the board, all that matters is that they are "Units that must start the game in reserve".

Not "start all games in reserve" not "always start the game in reserves", if for any given singular game, a unit is forced into reserves, then it does not count towards the reserve limit.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
They do not have to use Deathwing Assault, though, and therefore they do not always have to be in Reserve.

There's that word "always" again...

it doesn't matter that there are situations where the Deathwing can deploy on the board, all that matters is that they are "Units that must start the game in reserve".

Not "start all games in reserve" not "always start the game in reserves", if for any given singular game, a unit is forced into reserves, then it does not count towards the reserve limit.

If you have the choice to deploy them then they are not a unit that "Must start the game in reserve".

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you have the choice to deploy them then they are not a unit that "Must start the game in reserve".

You don't have the choice to deploy them, you never had the choice to deploy them, they were forced to enter reserves with you unable to deploy them before you had the opportunity to deploy anything.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you have the choice to deploy them then they are not a unit that "Must start the game in reserve".

You don't have the choice to deploy them, you never had the choice to deploy them, they were forced to enter reserves with you unable to deploy them before you had the opportunity to deploy anything.

Did you choose to use the rule that puts them in reserve, or are you forced to put them in reserve like a flyer?