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Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

Its per unit.

Oh yea, camo netting. Doesn't that increase the cover save by 1?
That would be a 2+ cover from an aegis wall. Owch!
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

I thought the stealth field thing just worked for codex DA units. Does it work on allies?

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in us
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Anyone notice that DA pay 15 more points for their razorbacks and they have not advantages over C:SM razors. Very frustrating.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







That's probably to discourage the return of the 'razorspam' lists, especially since you can now have a 5 man squad with a heavy weapon.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Compel wrote:
That's probably to discourage the return of the 'razorspam' lists, especially since you can now have a 5 man squad with a heavy weapon.


I am certain GW doesn't put that much thought into it.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun



SF Bay Area, CA

 wuestenfux wrote:
dauntless wrote:
Is an Aegis Line considered terrain for the purpose of the techmarines bolster ability? If so, that'd be a really nice place to stick some dreads.


No, the ADL and buildings cannot be bolstered, ruines can.


The text in the DA codex says one piece of terrain. Nothing is said about only ruins. The question is whether or not fortifications are considered terrain.

5500+
5000+ (Deathwing and Ravenwing)
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Made in ca
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta




dauntless wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
dauntless wrote:
Is an Aegis Line considered terrain for the purpose of the techmarines bolster ability? If so, that'd be a really nice place to stick some dreads.


No, the ADL and buildings cannot be bolstered, ruines can.


The text in the DA codex says one piece of terrain. Nothing is said about only ruins. The question is whether or not fortifications are considered terrain.


well they count against terrain density.

and each profile states it has a terrain type.

so sure consider them terrain.

 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





So whats everyones opinions on DW Knights? Are they worth taking a squad of 5 or is it probably better just to make them into terminators?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
You never know when that leman russ will punch you back

 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis






Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

Rules clearly state in the fortify terrain rule that purchased terrain cannot be fortified.


Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Eh... are you sure that's how it's supposed to work? I thought it'd only give any individual models within 6' of the shroud-speeder...

I thought that's what changed in 6th... hence why ork Kanwall don't work real well now.

Am I wrong?

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 whembly wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Eh... are you sure that's how it's supposed to work? I thought it'd only give any individual models within 6' of the shroud-speeder...

I thought that's what changed in 6th... hence why ork Kanwall don't work real well now.

Am I wrong?

Ork kanwall doesn't work too well because the Kans got much weaker, and the KFF that used to give them a +4 save only gives +5 now. It still gives the entire unit a cover save. The kans went from not caring about glances and ignoring them entirely on a +4 to having 2 glances = death and only ignoring them on a +5.

This speeders sounds like a literal ripoff of the KFF, just stuck on a much stupider platform.

Also, sounds like I need to start putting together some colossi if that's how that shroud speeder is going to work. Otherwise you just won't be able to kill the friggin bikes before it's too late.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Eh... are you sure that's how it's supposed to work? I thought it'd only give any individual models within 6' of the shroud-speeder...

I thought that's what changed in 6th... hence why ork Kanwall don't work real well now.

Am I wrong?

Ork kanwall doesn't work too well because the Kans got much weaker, and the KFF that used to give them a +4 save only gives +5 now. It still gives the entire unit a cover save. The kans went from not caring about glances and ignoring them entirely on a +4 to having 2 glances = death and only ignoring them on a +5.

This speeders sounds like a literal ripoff of the KFF, just stuck on a much stupider platform.

Also, sounds like I need to start putting together some colossi if that's how that shroud speeder is going to work. Otherwise you just won't be able to kill the friggin bikes before it's too late.


Slight correction squads of vehicles only those within the range of the kff get the save so just make sure that the closest is within range. That was faq's not to long ago but well before 6th though.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

pepe5454 wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Eh... are you sure that's how it's supposed to work? I thought it'd only give any individual models within 6' of the shroud-speeder...

I thought that's what changed in 6th... hence why ork Kanwall don't work real well now.

Am I wrong?

Ork kanwall doesn't work too well because the Kans got much weaker, and the KFF that used to give them a +4 save only gives +5 now. It still gives the entire unit a cover save. The kans went from not caring about glances and ignoring them entirely on a +4 to having 2 glances = death and only ignoring them on a +5.

This speeders sounds like a literal ripoff of the KFF, just stuck on a much stupider platform.

Also, sounds like I need to start putting together some colossi if that's how that shroud speeder is going to work. Otherwise you just won't be able to kill the friggin bikes before it's too late.


Slight correction squads of vehicles only those within the range of the kff get the save so just make sure that the closest is within range. That was faq's not to long ago but well before 6th though.

That's what I was thinking...

So... that flying shroud thingy... the whole squad gets it then if one bike is within 6"?

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre




Rule on Stealth is that only 1 model in the squad has to have it.

Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. 
   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader



DC Metro

Cover is by model, not by unit.
   
Made in fr
Adolescent Youth with Potential





 sudojoe wrote:
I thought the stealth field thing just worked for codex DA units. Does it work on allies?

The +1 cover bonus applies to friendly units within 6". So it isn't limited to DAs.
However the other bonus to combat results only apply to dark angels.
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






I thought that a dark angel army using the salvo banner nd lots of marines behind an aegis with the dark shroud would be awesome until I realized how much of a hard counter Helldrakes truly are to this type of list Same goes for Ravenwing using the DS, I think they could be decent gimic lists but I am not sure how competitive they will be.

   
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Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Cover is by model, not by unit.

However, the ork's KFF specifically states the UNIT receives the cover save, so one boy in range gives the whole mob a +5 cover save, with no focus fire shenanigans allowed.

Depending on how the shroudspeeder's rule is worded, it may well work in the same way (i.e. only one has to be in range to give the unit the save)

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





I really think the salvo banner is designed to function with bikes perfectly and better then with tacticals. Bikes have relentless so they always get 4 shots at 24" even after they move 12". Giving the, a huge effective range, not leaving your opponent with the ability outmaneuver your shooting. You may get less bolters, but you'll be shooting 4 with shots a hell of a lot more often, so it will look like more bolters.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in us
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe




Mississippi

Belial with a ten man Deathwing squad with two assault cannons. Drops behind enemy tank line turn one with no scatter. Twin linked assault cannons that can split fire means two dead tanks turn one. Then the rest of the Deathwing drop in on Belial's homer turn two. Sounds good in theory, anyway.
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine







DevianID wrote:
Howdy all, finally read the da book to cover, looked up all the main rule book usr rules, rechecked weapons ect, so I figure I would share my thoughts.

.....The land speeder vengeance is a massive failure, as its range is the same as a demolisher, it has 3 less str on its gun, is more expensive, and much more fragile. Yes it gets jink, but cover is not impossible for vehicles like the vindicator anymore, and av10 with 2 hull points and a short range expensive gun that can kill you is all kinds of stupid. Either I missed something big, or you will only ever see that kit making dark shrouds....


I'm not sure, but I think you might be underselling the Vengence. While I agree, at a glance, it does appear to be less useful than a vindicator, but keep in mind, land speeders can deepstrike, so range is not really much of an issue while the vindicator is not so flexible. Also, you can move 12" and still fire the big gun, so effective range is 36" versus the vindicator's 30". So the way I see it, you will always have a chance to destroy a high value target with the Vengence before it gets shot down, while with the vindicator, you really have to work for it. Its best use is obviously against heavy troops, as a plasma large blast marker and assault cannon attack will potentially wipe a squad, and the ability to drop in on any target should not be overlooked.

Can the Vengence be purchased in a land speeder squadron or are they separate (and can only be purchased singly)? Also, what are the front turret options? Is it just HB/AC or can you put a multimelta or possibly even another plasma weapon on it?
   
Made in ca
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Belial with a ten man Deathwing squad with two assault cannons. Drops behind enemy tank line turn one with no scatter. Twin linked assault cannons that can split fire means two dead tanks turn one. Then the rest of the Deathwing drop in on Belial's homer turn two. Sounds good in theory, anyway.


I think a ten man squad with Belial is great but you don't need to be playing a pure DW list. I would take a command squad with Belial that has Banner of Dakka and place them near a couple of tac squads with PCs and MLs and a Libbie with divination as my shooting base. Then add what ever else you like. That whole core s only around 1200 points. Leaves a lot of room for other tricks and toys.

 
   
Made in us
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





why would you waste points on belial and a shooty termy squad that sit on the back side of the table? Terms are meant to be up close and personal, doesn't matter if they're shooty or not, they need to be in the opponents face, or your just wasting points, IMO.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ClassicCarraway wrote:
DevianID wrote:
Howdy all, finally read the da book to cover, looked up all the main rule book usr rules, rechecked weapons ect, so I figure I would share my thoughts.

.....The land speeder vengeance is a massive failure, as its range is the same as a demolisher, it has 3 less str on its gun, is more expensive, and much more fragile. Yes it gets jink, but cover is not impossible for vehicles like the vindicator anymore, and av10 with 2 hull points and a short range expensive gun that can kill you is all kinds of stupid. Either I missed something big, or you will only ever see that kit making dark shrouds....


I'm not sure, but I think you might be underselling the Vengence. While I agree, at a glance, it does appear to be less useful than a vindicator, but keep in mind, land speeders can deepstrike, so range is not really much of an issue while the vindicator is not so flexible. Also, you can move 12" and still fire the big gun, so effective range is 36" versus the vindicator's 30". So the way I see it, you will always have a chance to destroy a high value target with the Vengence before it gets shot down, while with the vindicator, you really have to work for it. Its best use is obviously against heavy troops, as a plasma large blast marker and assault cannon attack will potentially wipe a squad, and the ability to drop in on any target should not be overlooked.

Can the Vengence be purchased in a land speeder squadron or are they separate (and can only be purchased singly)? Also, what are the front turret options? Is it just HB/AC or can you put a multimelta or possibly even another plasma weapon on it?


Unlike the demolisher it is a dual fire gun either a heavy3 Plasma or a large blast plasma that as I recall does not suffer the problem of being ordance.
   
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Western Kentucky

Being ordnance is usually considered a GOOD thing though. That gives you 2d6 pick highest if you try to kill a vehicle, which would make it a lot more dangerous.

So it's a 3 shot small blast, or a one shot large blast? And fast vehicle?

That actually doesn't sound so bad. I'll take my executioners over it any day, but it doesn't sound terribad like the fliers seem to be.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis






Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

Actually, the Vengeance isn't a Heavy 3 Blast. It's a Heavy 3. It's a cool model but a horrible competitive choice.

Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

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Made in us
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What problem of being ordinance? On the vindicator ordinance is always good is it not?. As for load, the vengeance is only a heavy, not a ravenwing support unit, gets a heavy bolter, av 10 and 2 hull points. As for threat range, deep strike is bad as it keeps you off the table and opens the potential to scatter horribly.. Yes you can move 12 and shoot, but you better hope you like that one shot your going to get as even bolters can down your expensive speeder. Meh, like I said its range is short and has no defense, all for plasma that is so easy to get elsewhere.

As to ravenwing bikes, I agree the bolter banner is good on them, but the toughness and cover save do nothing versus so many kinds of attacks. Also, the tactical squads pair better with the awesome aegis line. Like I said, I will try them, but I feel that beyond scouting melta and homers for termies, which only require 3 bikes with attached multimeltas, additional bikes or full bike armies cost too much since there is no turn 1 scout assault.
   
Made in us
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe




Mississippi

The problem with ordnance is that other weapons have to snap fire if you fire ordnance. Not a problem for the vindicator but the vengeance has an assault cannon to fire, too. Usually GW makes the new shiny kits the best, but this time all the new stuff is pretty crappy.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Rbb wrote:Belial with a ten man Deathwing squad with two assault cannons. Drops behind enemy tank line turn one with no scatter. Twin linked assault cannons that can split fire means two dead tanks turn one. Then the rest of the Deathwing drop in on Belial's homer turn two. Sounds good in theory, anyway.


I prefer a Cyclone but that's what I tried today, a Cyclone and an Assault Cannon, but you only get to split one of them. Which is still more useful than I was thinking at first but I was also hitting Chaos Marines. Was also surprised Preferred Enemy seemed to help. As far as dropping on Belials homer goes I'm thinking you have to roll for reserves as Deathwing Assault has you pick your units and turn and they arrive on the chosen turn (1 or 2) so the first set could come in either and the other would be in reserves and otherwise could do that. Least that's how it looks to me. Either way 11 no scatter Deathwing fully armed dropping like that... makes people worry.

Hulksmash wrote:Actually, the Vengeance isn't a Heavy 3 Blast. It's a Heavy 3. It's a cool model but a horrible competitive choice.


Or more specifically Heavy 3 OR Heavy 1 Large Blast. If you can catch clustered units that seems like it would come in handy.

   
Made in ca
Commoragh-bound Peer




Vancouver, BC

I played my first game with the new codex tonight, I was most impressed by the venerable dreadnought, it proved to be the best thing for its point cost by far in the list I used. Also, I don't know how new of a thing this is, but putting a heavy weapon in a 5 man tac squad proved to be the second best part of the game I played. So far, I love this codex, the last codex felt so one dimensional.

I have orks and old school dark eldar. Also my roommate collects space marines, but refuses to admit he plays warhammer, so I claim they are my own in public. 
   
 
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