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Why is the community not drooling over rad grenade launchers?

Against DE t3 goes down to t2 and bolters double t removing fnp from units with power from pain and instagibs razorwing flocks.

Against tmc plasma will now wound on a 2+, and bolters going from a 6+ to a 5+ is a big deal. It effectively turns tmc into twc.

It turns meq into battle sisters.

It turns twc into meq.

Are rad grenade launchers grossly overpriced? Why no love?

Give it time to sink in

To be fair, of all the codex releases I've seen, this has been the most well received and one that has generated the most buzz in its first few days of release.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Why is the community not drooling over rad grenade launchers?

Against DE t3 goes down to t2 and bolters double t removing fnp from units with power from pain and instagibs razorwing flocks.

Against tmc plasma will now wound on a 2+, and bolters going from a 6+ to a 5+ is a big deal. It effectively turns tmc into twc.

It turns meq into battle sisters.

It turns twc into meq.

Are rad grenade launchers grossly overpriced? Why no love?

I finally have my answer to paladins! rad launchers + plasma, bye bye you two wounded pains in the arse!

I think the dark shroud is great. 80 points for stealth, and you can always turbo for a 2+ save. I don't know about 2 though, I think doubling the price for no increase in effectiveness makes no sense. If your opponent kills it then it absorbed fire, and if they can kill one easy they can kill 2 easy.

As for terminators, while I love terminators I don't like any squads besides a Belial squad with 10 buddies. You need the storm shield for protection, need the no scatter deep strike to deploy in the deep back field where scouting bike homers don't reach, and need heavy weapons to stay relevant. Assault cannons are probably better than cyclones now because of the hull point rule--versus all av other than 11 the assault cannon gets more pens thanks to more shots, and and only less hull point results versus av 12. Since you save points on the assault cannon, and s8 missiles don't instant death bikes anymore, the assault cannon fits the bill for me. The blast mode is nice on the missiles but you can assault infantry, lessening the need for the blasts to be on terminators. Another reason to like the assault cannon is that you get them in dark angel set, so you don't have to scrounge for cyclones.

Also, I would keep one storm bolter so you can split fire the storm bolter at the target you are going to charge and fire the 2 assault cannons at a vehicle.

On the issue with company vets, I like them as an azrael body guard. This way you make use of his invulnerable save the most, and with eziekel in there as well they become ws 5. This also gets eziekel an invulnerable save as well, as that is the only thing he is missing. Plus you can use the warlord power to get either Fnp if you feel the fighting will be on an objective or furious charge if you need the str boost. Divination to add rerolls from eziekel to seal the deal, and you can outfight anything the deathwing could put together while keeping costs down and bodies up.

Ravenwing Knights are really potent. Dont forget the Corvus Hammers. +1 Str and rending and hitting on initiative. Very flexible unit. Thank the emperor its properly costed.

 TedNugent wrote:


I'm worried that I'm going to have to pay at least another 60 bucks on a DW Command Squad and another 20 on Belial....I'm hoping that with 2 DV kits I should be able to grab a middle of the road Dark Angels list that just goes for a vanilla IC or maybe a SC other than Belial/Sammael.

You can very reasonably convert a terminator up to be your 'Belial', as long as you just use older DA bits and green stuff -- 90%+ of DA players have been doing that for years, since there was no mini, so no-one will bat an eyelid at a decent conversion (unless it uses Deathwing Knights bits).

DevianID wrote:
I think the dark shroud is great. 80 points for stealth, and you can always turbo for a 2+ save. I don't know about 2 though, I think doubling the price for no increase in effectiveness makes no sense. If your opponent kills it then it absorbed fire, and if they can kill one easy they can kill 2 easy.

As for terminators, while I love terminators I don't like any squads besides a Belial squad with 10 buddies. You need the storm shield for protection, need the no scatter deep strike to deploy in the deep back field where scouting bike homers don't reach, and need heavy weapons to stay relevant. Assault cannons are probably better than cyclones now because of the hull point rule--versus all av other than 11 the assault cannon gets more pens thanks to more shots, and and only less hull point results versus av 12. Since you save points on the assault cannon, and s8 missiles don't instant death bikes anymore, the assault cannon fits the bill for me. The blast mode is nice on the missiles but you can assault infantry, lessening the need for the blasts to be on terminators. Another reason to like the assault cannon is that you get them in dark angel set, so you don't have to scrounge for cyclones.

Also, I would keep one storm bolter so you can split fire the storm bolter at the target you are going to charge and fire the 2 assault cannons at a vehicle.

On the issue with company vets, I like them as an azrael body guard. This way you make use of his invulnerable save the most, and with eziekel in there as well they become ws 5. This also gets eziekel an invulnerable save as well, as that is the only thing he is missing. Plus you can use the warlord power to get either Fnp if you feel the fighting will be on an objective or furious charge if you need the str boost. Divination to add rerolls from eziekel to seal the deal, and you can outfight anything the deathwing could put together while keeping costs down and bodies up.

Company vets dont score so objective fighting really is a waste. The company vets suffer because they don't do anything really well. You might as well take a DA Tac squad and save 60 or so points. Your pouring in 360 points into a squad to make it do some something passively well. Even as a DPing faux sternguard their bad because they pay a premium on their combi-weapons.

Bad unit.
Cant polish a turd son.

Also, 10 with 2 grenade launchers mean -1 toughness, init and ws. If the shooting doesn't kill the unit, hitting meq with hammer of wrath, and 30 hammer attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s before they can swing will. In my opinion, while expensive black knights are one of the killiest units around--much more than deathwing termies. The point cost and standard vulnerability to things like massed auto cannons keep them from brokenness, but for people unaware of how deadly they are and without sufficient shooting to down them quickly, they can roll a line. If the rad grenade wasn't a blast you could overwatch with them, so we can be thankful for that.

Glockniel the vets get 40 attacks on the charge and cost 40 points more than tac squads, 30 with a tac vet sarge (vets units get it for free).

I see the upside to the blackknights, but I just don't quit see the point when I could bring 1 to 2 Ravenwing command squads with a dev banner and company banner to lead my squads of ravenwing bikers. Having effectively 6 blackknights, lead by sammel and a libby on a bike (With telepathy, ML2) gives me plenty of combat punch, 2 grenade launchers and the banners. I think I like this build better then bring one big squad of black knights. Feels like too many points in one spot, and they don't provide the synergy the ravenwing command squad does with the troop bikers. Supported by a darkshroud, cheap Land Speeders and tacticals with flakk for backfield scoring. I think this list can effectively deal with just about everything out there.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
stern are almost always taken in Drop Pods, which means they'll easily be within 12". Bubble-wrapping won't help either, since they ignore the cover anyway.

Take 20 bike bases. Spread them 2 inches from each other.

They have a huge footprint. Sometimes this works to the bikes advantage -- like when stopping deep strikes. Sometimes it works against the bikes - like when getting enough guns in range

I second the 2 ravenwing command, samael approach as it also frees up FA slots which we are spoiiled for. I would use 2 shrouded as it let's you split your force if you need to.

I figured since flak missiles are a thing we should examine them. At first glance they seem really expensive, and the las cannon is cheaper and ap2.

So if 6 flak missiles are shot, 4 will hit. 6 las cannons will net 1 hit.

4 flak hits versus av 12 will get 4/6 pen results and 8/6 hull points. The las will score 3/6 pen results, with double the chance to explode. This computes to 6/6 non ap2 pen rolls. Conversely you expect only 4/6 hull points.

Versus av11, the expected results are 8/6 flak pens and 12/6 hull points. The las is 8/6 equivalent pens and 5/6 hull points.

If you get rerolls to hit, the 6 las shots become 1 and 5/6 hits, versus 5 and 2/6. So flak gets 33 percent better and las gets 83 percent better.

So with that, which is better? Well, if you are trying to bring down av 12 flyers, las cannons are the way to go, since you can wreck them via explode results. Versus av 11 both explode about the same amount but flak starts stripping hull points enough to down flyers with glances. With prescience the las cannons again pull ahead with penning results, but you need a librarian at at point, increasing the cost.

In the end, I am more worried about av 12 flyers than av11 ones due to vendettas and storm ravens, and for that ill use las cannons. If you wanted missile launchers for another reason, like the versatility of frag for infantry blobs, then flak is a nice bonus worth buying for dev squads, but since you don't have interceptor the flak missiles will be a prime target when the enemy takes av 11 flyers--las cannons may slip under the radar since they don't sky fire.

As an aside, while flak missiles can down flyers, I would look elsewhere if you wanted real anti flyer attacks in response to a massive Air Force list like cron air. The flak missiles as a dedicated anti flyer weapon are too expensive to spam due to paying for the krak and frag as well, and by spamming them as a flyer counter you waste too many points. Allying in guard with a vendetta and pair of hydras plus an aegis line will net better results than 3 170 point flak dev squads.

Allying in guard is an amazing addition to the army, as you can join a librarian to a guard blob, making them fearless and preferred enemy CSM, as well as casting prescience on either the guard blob itself (reroll misses in combat and rolls of 1 to wound? Ouch chaos, ouch) or on a dev squad.

I'd probably use large squads of black knights against fliers. 10 S7 shots twin-linked? Decent enough, I'd think. Just make fliers a last priority.

Of course you can also ally with grey knights, taking a squad of paladins or at the very least a stormraven - though vendettas are more bang for your buck.

Rad grenade + enfeeble stacks to get to 0 toughness!

What exactly happens at 0 toughness anyway?

 sudojoe wrote:
Rad grenade + enfeeble stacks to get to 0 toughness!

What exactly happens at 0 toughness anyway?

According to the rulebook, when a model's strength, toughness or wounds fall to 0 it dies.
So if these effects really stack as you say, it would mean death.

You would need 3 psykers to knock a t4 marine to t1, so it will require allies and lucky rolls. It could be a counter to guard blobs though. Why has this not come up with gk rad grenades before I wonder?

Doesn't the Rad shot only affect models that fall under the blast template? That would seem to make it much nastier against MCs and the like rather than stuff like Paladins.

 sudojoe wrote:
Rad grenade + enfeeble stacks to get to 0 toughness!

What exactly happens at 0 toughness anyway?

It doesn't. You can't lower Toughness below 1.

Edit. Enfeeble can't lower a Toughness past 1. So you'd have to make sure you do it in the right order.

 Gornall wrote:
Doesn't the Rad shot only affect models that fall under the blast template? That would seem to make it much nastier against MCs and the like rather than stuff like Paladins.

Good question does it affect the models under or the unit?

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Gornall wrote:
Doesn't the Rad shot only affect models that fall under the blast template? That would seem to make it much nastier against MCs and the like rather than stuff like Paladins.

Good question does it affect the models under or the unit?

Went back and checked and it IS entire unit. Dunno where I got the per model idea from, but the wording of the rule could probably be cleaned up signficantly.

So had my first game against tau. Devestation banner in crusader would have worked well if it weren't for eldrad broadside and pathfinder combo going first. Even after it worked well. Azrael is a beast for keeping the power armor command squad alive. Rites of battle save so many points for the power armor guys. I found that throwing 10 man bolter units in rhinos and advancing them up towards a forward deployed aegis worked well. I think having a few 5 mans with heavy weapons sitting in cover would also be a benefit. I am thinking for the 10mans throwing a heavy weapon in the unit. But the extra cost and missing out on the salvo is a tough call.

Also at 13 to 24 a plasma gun is worse than the salvo bolters for kills. So the extra points are hard to justify. The key to making it work is finding a way to work in anti armor and transports. I ran a Mortis contemptor in my list and it was worth every point. Even against tau. Also a great way to work in anti flier. I also have a hyperios which i might try running but its not worth the points for a single missile shot.

I am thinking of taking a techmarine with a powerfield to throw in the crusader to give it a invulnerable as well as the rhinos and other vehicles around it. Double melts is not so scary for land raiders with a 4+

DevianID wrote:
If the rad grenade wasn't a blast you could overwatch with them, so we can be thankful for that.

It's strange, the IG GL can over-watch wall of death with the blast stats: St:3 Ap- D3 hits

 Griddlelol wrote:

DevianID wrote:
If the rad grenade wasn't a blast you could overwatch with them, so we can be thankful for that.

It's strange, the IG GL can over-watch wall of death with the blast stats: St:3 Ap- D3 hits

hrm... got a reference for that? As far as I know, it overwatches with the krack grenade stats at str 6 AP4 one shot.

Huh? The frag rounds on the IG grenade launcher are AP 6, Blast not AP-, Template. Blast weapons cannot be fired as overwatch. The weapon isn't mentioned at all in the FAQ, either.

Sternguard are almost always taken in Drop Pods, which means they'll easily be within 12". Bubble-wrapping won't help either, since they ignore the cover anyway.

They would still get a 3+ armor save so they are not as dangerous as say helldrakes...Plus if any knights manage to survive, the sterngaurd are looking at eating rapidfire plasma, and getting assaulted by Str 5 corvus hammers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can someone do the mathhammer and compare these two death star units? I don't have the codex with me now but toolkit the command squad with all the good stuff and see which unit is the nastier one:

1. Belial and 10-man terminator squad with special weapon options (sprinkle with cc weapons as needed)

or

2. Azrael and a 9 man power armor command squad with all the bells, fancy banners and whistles

Which unit has more bang for the buck and in terms of survivability, which unit has the advantage? Force multipliers or making other units better should count towards analyzing each unit's overall effectiveness.

DAalltheway wrote:

Sternguard are almost always taken in Drop Pods, which means they'll easily be within 12". Bubble-wrapping won't help either, since they ignore the cover anyway.

They would still get a 3+ armor save so they are not as dangerous as say helldrakes...Plus if any knights manage to survive, the sterngaurd are looking at eating rapidfire plasma, and getting assaulted by Str 5 corvus hammers.
.

They'd be shooting the Land Speeder.

I personally am extremely excited to have a new codex. The new units look very promising.

I was relieved to see I can keep my Company Veteran Squad, but their entry is almost identical to the old one pre-FAQ. By that I mean only 3 power weapons. I used my CVS as a suicide squad running around with power weapons and storm shields cracking skulls. I had hoped to run a squad of them with Azrael in a Land Raider for some added assault fun, I hope the FAQ might fix that...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I personally am extremely excited to have a new codex. The new units look very promising.

I was relieved to see I can keep my Company Veteran Squad, but their entry is almost identical to the old one pre-FAQ. By that I mean only 3 power weapons. I used my CVS as a suicide squad running around with power weapons and storm shields cracking skulls. I had hoped to run a squad of them with Azrael in a Land Raider for some added assault fun, I hope the FAQ might fix that...

Be careful. DW and RW can be heavily outnumbered especially if they battle against horde. Fearless horde units do not suffer from additional hits when they lost a round of cc.

Azrael + 50 man IG blob with special weapons and assorted power weapons on the srgs for challenges. I am gonna march these guys right across the board.

Another combo: tech priest with auspex attached to a dev squad to reduce enemies cover saves.