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andystache wrote:


Welcome to playing Dark Angels, we have a fluff accurate list. You can take most HQs with either RW or DW, but there is one RW Company Master (Sammael) and one DW Company Master (Belial). Now because all Company Masters are DW they can take Termie armor and drop with their battle brothers. They are not all Ravenwing and the Ravenwing stands apart so no bikes. Things like this are why the DA get their own codex, despite all appearances to the contrary we're not a codex chapter. We don't get a Master of the Forge because we don't trust Techmarines that much and we hard-wire our best techmarine into our fortess monastery.

Not to be unwelcoming, but if you want to take a Captain on a bike, play White Scars, or really any codex chapter. If you want to play the Unforgiven then understand that our fluff is tied directly to our army choices

EDIT: Azrael is his own delivery mechanism, his squad has 4++ on top of their 3+. Personally I like him in a 9 man squad of vets with every vet having a storm bolter.

I was thinking of Vets, but how to get them to the field? Drop pod? A stupid Rhino by itself getting shot by every high strength weapon in the enemy's arsenal?

If I have my Ravenwing attack squad turbo boost on its scout move, I can drop my Termies via DW Assault turn 1 on the Homing Beacon and do the same w/ the drop pod on turn whatever Azrael comes in on.

What really frustrates me is the entire Vet squad would be non-scoring, and I also think that 3+ saves are stupid in CC.

Err.... Why can't you stick Azrael along with some termies in a Land Raider?

Yes, you can.

Do you really wanna do that? Nearly ~450 points just for the baseline models and then you're adding another 250 just for a transport.

And then the Terminators would get no benefit from Deathwing Assault or Vengeful Strike.

By contrast, you could get another unit of scoring DW Terminators for that price that would DS on turn 1 and have TL Storm Bolters/Assault Cannon/Cyclone.

Azreal's main benefit is providing his squad with a 4++ save, so putting him with Termies is a waste of his abilities. Instead you drop him into a relatively cheap blob and no you have a solid unit that soaks up a ton of fire.

Now Azreal and his bullet shield can walk across the field, hop in a Rhino, fall in a Drop Pod, or take the limo (LR)

But the "cheap blob" would either have to be Scouts or Tacs.

Vets aren't cheap in this dex and their combat abilities are not all that exciting, upgrades are pretty expensive.

Plus a 4++ doesn't increase your upfront survivability, it only increases your survivability against relatively rare AP3 shooting. I only see it being useful in CC, and walking across the board is a pretty slow way of delivering a 300+ point unit.

So are lightning claws basically useless now that we get TL SBs when we DS? Whats the best load out right now for a DW term squad?

I would think PF/SB and one model with TH/SS and cyclone would be pretty legit.

 TedNugent wrote:
But the "cheap blob" would either have to be Scouts or Tacs.

Vets aren't cheap in this dex and their combat abilities are not all that exciting, upgrades are pretty expensive.

Plus a 4++ doesn't increase your upfront survivability, it only increases your survivability against relatively rare AP3 shooting. I only see it being useful in CC, and walking across the board is a pretty slow way of delivering a 300+ point unit.

Vets are cheap compared to other codex marines vets (ie sternguard and vangaurd) 18pts per model with base 2 attack and free ccw/bp. Sounds cheap to me.

What are peoples thoughts on weapons choices for shooty Terminators? I'm still waiting on my codex (from a 3rd party supplier, slow but I save about 40% of what I would pay for it in Canada), but with Deathwing Assault granting TL I'm starting to like the idea of assault cannons. Rending makes them good against pretty much any target, and TL works slightly better with higher rate of fire weapons. Also, now that TH/SS termies are 49 points, are they still worth taking over PF/SB terminators?

Coyote81 wrote:


Vets are cheap compared to other codex marines vets (ie sternguard and vangaurd) 18pts per model with base 2 attack and free ccw/bp. Sounds cheap to me.

Just like Wolfguard, only Dark Angel veteran's pay twice as much for the same gear.

 TedNugent wrote:
But the "cheap blob" would either have to be Scouts or Tacs.

Vets aren't cheap in this dex and their combat abilities are not all that exciting, upgrades are pretty expensive.

Plus a 4++ doesn't increase your upfront survivability, it only increases your survivability against relatively rare AP3 shooting. I only see it being useful in CC, and walking across the board is a pretty slow way of delivering a 300+ point unit.

Stick him in a blob of guard allies.

I like assault cannons or cyclones on shooty termies, with 1 storm bolter, in a 10 man squad. Turn 1, deep strike and shoot 2 separate vehicles with your 2 heavy weapons, turn 2 shoot 2 heavy weapons at a vehicle and shoot your storm bolter with split fire at the unit you want to charge. This maxes your anti vehicle fire power, doesn't shoot your enemy's front models so much you fail a charge, and leaves lots of cc termies (th ss).

I got some games in with various units, I didn't try all the new ones yet. The ravenwing as I ran them the previous edition really suffered from overwatch, as I ran a dual wing where the ravenwing guided my termies down with homers turn 1 and assaulted (I went second) to tie up big necron units so the termies didn't get as much small arms. Both charges failed due to overwatch killing several lead bikes. The ravenwing are still good scouting homers, and still bring melta for tanks, but performed worse for me in the one game I played them in.

I tried azrael in the guard blob, that was just disgusting! Normally my guard allies 2 rune priests who try for forewarning to get the 4++, now it's guaranteed with azzy, at double the cost. He can also grant an amazing leadership buff for your stubborn marines by rolling an extra dice and discarding the highest. As I saw it, the leadership ability applied to psychic powers, so the allied primaris psyker and da Libby never failed a power check. It also helps versus runes when up against eldar.

The whirlwinds were great, 65 points is a good value with barrage being what it is. I played 3 games with whirlwinds and while versus the daemons they were less effective, they still pulled their weight.

I tried the bolter banner versus daemons 2 times, once with 2 tac squads and once with 4, both times with a crusader with hurricane support. The 4 tac squads definitely had the dice to chew through fate weaver plus 27 screamers, though it is a close thing. The 2 squads did not have the shooting power, as I took anti vehicle attacks like mm typhoons and las plas razors with the points. The static nature of the bolters, and the relative clump that 40 tac marines makes, means I am wary about this list as an all comers. Low mobility and low anti vehicle fire power in favor of a 50 blob and 40 marines makes you really hard to approach but easy to beat with a tank shock at the last minute from the vehicles your bolters can't scratch. I want more testing here, as wel as a devastation ravenwing build.

The deathwing knights got played versus the screamer daemons and necrons. Versus screamers they held them up just fine and were on the way to killing them in a 6 on 9 match thanks to getting the charge via a crusader. However, the Rest of the screamers went on to kill all my other units. The blob did much better with azzy as trading 10 t5 wounds in knights with 3++ for 50 t3 wounds with a 4++ favors the guard blob heavily since both are fearless. Azzy is not a cheap char, but the blob is cheaper than 10 knights, and though they don't deep strike, they get first rank second rank.

Versus necrons, the massive short range shooting fire power neutered the dw knight unit as I tried the bike deep strike approach. This approach can still work, but I am going to want multiple units of 10 termies, and probably swap the knights for regular deathwing. This leaves very little points left for support however.

I still have to try dev squads, the vengeance for a lark, the shroud, the flyers, the Fnp banner, the vet squad, and black knights. Will update when I do.

For regular Deathwing terminators, is it better to mix up the squads (some TH/SS, some regular, some LC in the same squad) or is it better to make a group of full 1-type (all TH/SS in one group, all regular PF/SB in another)?

Sounds like you have the basic idea of the new DA, but honestly, the dev banner is wasted on tactical marines due to their lack of mobility and no relentless. Used properly with a heavy ravenwing list, is pretty sick to see 48 bolter shots that are also twinlinked shooting at a unit of terms that have been hit by a rad grenade right before hand. Can easily put 26-27 wounds on termies, which should kill 4. Should be more then enough to finish off the unit after they took at hit from plasma talons before hand. The only real problem I see with ravenwing is lack of long range anti tanks, but otherwise I see a highly mobile fairly resilent due to increased cover saves and jink, with amazing anti-infantry firepower. Bring a few devestators with flakk. Cast prescience on them and watch the birdies fall out of the sky.

I personally am trying out a build with Tau allies. (the best anti tank/flyer allies I could get)

 TedNugent wrote:
What kind of a delivery mechanism would make sense for an HQ unit in Power Armor, when all the legitimate assault choices are either on Bikes or in TDA?

Land Raider Crusader, packaged with a Command Squad with the Bolter of Devastation (Salvo 2/4 on the Hurricane Bolters) and a Techmarine (for repairs and extra CC punch). Just a thought. Sandwich it between some Tac Squads to boost the Standard's effect, use either Azreal's 4++ bubble or a power field on the Techmarine. Heck, throw Ezekiel in there and you have one hell of a deathstar.

Coyote81 wrote:


Vets are cheap compared to other codex marines vets (ie sternguard and vangaurd) 18pts per model with base 2 attack and free ccw/bp. Sounds cheap to me.

First of all, Vets don't get CCWs. They only get Bolt Pistol Boltgun.

Which means the only difference between a Vet in Codex Dark Angels and a Tactical Marine is the Vets get an extra base attack.

They do this in spite of being more expensive than Tacs.

You can't compare them to Sternguard because the only reason people take Sternguard is for Special Issue Ammo, not the Veteran statline. There's no reason to pay extra for the Veteran statline. So you're paying 4 points over a Tactical for +1 attack. And they're not even scoring. Sternguard can be scoring with Pedro Kantor. They also synergize better with combi-weapons because of Special Issue Ammo. They can get Meltas or Plas and their basic Boltguns can murder anything. They're a swiss army knife. By contrast, your Dark Angel Vets are just Tacticals with +1 attack. They're useless without wargear, and MEQ wargear is always way more expensive and inefficient than Terminators, which are the bread and butter of this dex.

I will agree that Veterans don’t look great on paper from what I have seen here [my book wont be here for another 5-7 days], but you never know sometimes a unit like this turns out to be better.
It looks like how I am planning on lauding them up might be affective. Mostly I am planning on Combi-Plasmas, Plasma Gun and Las Cannon with a couple of Storm Shields to take shots and Power Fist or Power Maul here and there. Podding them in to take out Vehicles or HQs might be a good use of them. They might also do well in a Gun Line with a Dakka Banner behind an ADL.
You can also load them up for close combat with a mix of Power Weapons and Shields they would make good Vanguard Vets out of Land Raider.

Like they have always been, they suffer from being a Jack of Trades. The difference is they could be tooled up to be a master of one, but at a large cost.

A couple things about shields. One, I'm talking about in the context of an Azrael delivery mechanism, in which case I wouldn't get shields. But, they are only 10 points so if they were going it alone I would probably one at least one of them in a unit.

Second, their mileage, I believe, is going to be dependent on their wargear. Their statline is geared towards close combat, but their wargear is a mix of CC and ranged. I think the individual items are extremely expensive per model, so they have to be limited and have "empty bodies" to take the shots to maximize their efficiency.

I also believe another problem is that your Storm Shields are great for taking the storm of AP3 or AP2 fire or CC weapons, but they lose their CCW/pistol bonus, so they should be paired either with a FIst (which is specialist weapon), or with a Melta to maximize the CC of the squad. But then you're putting a lot of points on a model that should be taking a defensive role, which means you're using a 30-40 point model to soak fire, which doesn't sound smart. I personally believe that power weapons, as opposed to fists, should be primarily placed on units with Bolt pistols, because if you're talking about 3 versus 2 Power Weapon attacks on an upgrade that costs as much as another model - have to.

Personally I am thinking about using a unit of Command Squad - since Vets are not going to be scoring anyway. I want to put Azrael in that unit and drop pod them onto a Bike Squad with a homing beacon. That means they will synergize better with Termies and get into CC faster. With Azrael, that Command Squad removes a potential vulnerability in CC, a 4++ invulnerable save. You can also put an apothecary in that squad for a very low point cost. That means the whole unit is 3+/4++ with FNP for a relatively minor cost compared to Azrael. The Drop pod is also cheap, and with the beacon, a reliable delivery mechanism.

Personally, I think that's the only thing that makes sense.

Vets are bad, simple as that. They are just worse chosen. Command squad is not bad though.

This is what i would be looking at with Ravenwing I am unsure on point cost, i can't get the book until next friday (payday!) and i am mostly going off memory!


Sammy on Jetbike
Command Squad w. Banner of Dev and Apothecary
2x Techmarine on Bike (forcefield?)

4x Full Ravenwing Squads w. Typhoons
Landspeeder Shroud
Black Knights as point fillers...


Seems pretty cut and dry, i think Hit&Run provides the most abuse, being able to charge weak CC capable opponents before backing out prior to your turn and driving away again...

 jegsar wrote:
Vets are bad, simple as that. They are just worse chosen. Command squad is not bad though.

Their advantage is that they can take 1 special and 1 heavy at 5 models. They are easy to min/max and they have a good place in a MSU mechwing.

DevianID
Thanks for the battle report man. I coach basketball right now so I have not had the time to get a game in. Seeing other battles really helps on how I kit my guys out. I love the deathwing models so I am leaning that direction.

If you go deathwing i feel like you almost have to do the belial 10 man ds to get their full punch.

so I would go Belial with 2 autocannons and 2 chainfists for popping tanks. The others would be pf/sb.

I'm thinking 2 squads of devs since they are so stinking cheap or one dev and a pred. Throw a ML or 2 with flak for fliers or just las/plas and ignore them.

Then 1 or 2 whirl winds for mobs. Again, they would be a cheap choice to get quick firepower for whatever my termies pop.

I want to put some knights in but for a 2k list It would take my model count way to low i think.

Ill be using vets with 2 ccw stacked with azzy and eziekel. Since there are 10, and they save really well thanks to azzy, they are a hard hitting unit. 180 for 40 ws5 s5 reroll hit attacks out of a land raider is sufficient counter attack to protect the bolter dudes. The alternative is 8 deathwing knights, who dont need the character support, but azzy and eziekel are just so good I dont mind the extra points on them.

DevianID wrote:
Ill be using vets with 2 ccw stacked with azzy and eziekel. Since there are 10, and they save really well thanks to azzy, they are a hard hitting unit. 180 for 40 ws5 s5 reroll hit attacks out of a land raider is sufficient counter attack to protect the bolter dudes. The alternative is 8 deathwing knights, who dont need the character support, but azzy and eziekel are just so good I dont mind the extra points on them.

This was my thought as well. You could put them in a drop pod but that would mean 8 vets + Ezekiel + Azrael. I'm also wondering if a Command Squad is better though with the Apothecary bring FNP to the squad + 2ICs.

Ministry, while the apothecary is nice, I really hate losing the extra 5 models. Don't forget azrael can give his squad fnp on an objective if you need that more than furious or leadership.

DevianID wrote:
Ill be using vets with 2 ccw stacked with azzy and eziekel. Since there are 10, and they save really well thanks to azzy, they are a hard hitting unit. 180 for 40 ws5 s5 reroll hit attacks out of a land raider is sufficient counter attack to protect the bolter dudes. The alternative is 8 deathwing knights, who dont need the character support, but azzy and eziekel are just so good I dont mind the extra points on them.

Where are you getting the str 5 from?

Azeral can pick warlord trait, including furious charge.

As an aside, does seraphicus have anything other than preferred enemy? Because an interrogator Chaplin also has preferred enemy with inner circle versus csm and zealot as well, and with a plasma pistol costs the same.

I am the Ravenwing player that played against Mushkilla in the batrep he posted. Secondly I have been playing this game seriously since 3rd edition, so I have many games under my belt.

 Volkov wrote:
That is basically, a picture perfect report of how NOT to play Ravenwing. Few armies Ravenwing can take just head on like that. Light eldar come to mind but thats about it...I would have hid the bulk of my force out of sight and used the 48" inch range of the typhoons to take down some ravagers/raiders, forcing them to close, and then counter attack with hopefully full strength bike squads.

Uh huh... and my 3 typhoons were suppose to outgun 2 ravagers, 4 raiders, and 2 reaver squads while his 3 splintercannons picked off my bikes. Lets not even get into T1 having nightfight, to which means if I stayed out 48" away, I could not even think of shooting him, while his entire army could touch mine. Great tactic there guy...

andystache wrote: The Landspeeder config struck me as odd, why put such short ranged weapons on so mobile a platform. Having Hit & Run on the bikes feels like you should be charging them into combat, but I'm thinking that's going to be more useful to make them a durable speed bump. Slide some bikers between that big combat unit and your main force. If the RW get slaughtered, well at least the high casualty rate is in the fluff and the enemy should be in prime shooting range, if they survive the opponents charge they leave combat and go back for more with a charge bonus or just blast away with the rest of the army

The reason for the typhoons and HF on the landspeeders was this. First off the typhoons gave me some long range AT that I lacked, and the HF were for pulling warriors off of objectives in terrain or their crashed raiders. Whether its a 3+ coversave or 2+ (depending on how you play going to ground in area terrain) its difficult to pull of 10 man units. Also the reason T1 I turboed the two speeders with the darkshrouds was to get the bonus to their coversave... which did nothing sadly...

As for hit and run I also agree that they shouldnt be in assault, but its more of a way to get out of it if your bikes are ever caught. Sadly it was either get shot by a ton of splinterfire, or go into combat where Mush needed 6s to wound me... Ill take combat anyday in that situation.

Basically there were several factors that saved Mush from a table. 1st was deployment. Having the table longways saved him from getting so much bolterfire in his face T1. Secondly was Nightfight, which saved his ravagers and raiders from the brunt of my AT T1. Finally was my terrible... terrible rolling. But that happens and there is nothing you can do about it.

It was a good game none-the-less, and the only thing I would probably change would be dropping the assault bikes and picking up more speeders instead. Also I have a feeling that the command squad is just too expensive to run in 1500 pts, but I would definately run it again at 2k

 TedNugent wrote:

You can't compare them to Sternguard because the only reason people take Sternguard is for Special Issue Ammo,

The only winning armies I've seen that include Sternguard include them because of combi-weapons, not bolter ammo.

Marines, including the new Dark Angels, don't have points and game effecient offense. Combi-marines may only have offense once, but games don't last a million turns, they usually last 3.