Dark angels tactics+ first impression

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**andystache**

Shadows Revenge wrote:
I am the Ravenwing player that played against Mushkilla in the batrep he posted. Secondly I have been playing this game seriously since 3rd edition, so I have many games under my belt.

Volkov wrote:
That is basically, a picture perfect report of how NOT to play Ravenwing. Few armies Ravenwing can take just head on like that. Light eldar come to mind but thats about it...I would have hid the bulk of my force out of sight and used the 48" inch range of the typhoons to take down some ravagers/raiders, forcing them to close, and then counter attack with hopefully full strength bike squads.

Uh huh... and my 3 typhoons were suppose to outgun 2 ravagers, 4 raiders, and 2 reaver squads while his 3 splintercannons picked off my bikes. Lets not even get into T1 having nightfight, to which means if I stayed out 48" away, I could not even think of shooting him, while his entire army could touch mine. Great tactic there guy...

andystache wrote: The Landspeeder config struck me as odd, why put such short ranged weapons on so mobile a platform. Having Hit & Run on the bikes feels like you should be charging them into combat, but I'm thinking that's going to be more useful to make them a durable speed bump. Slide some bikers between that big combat unit and your main force. If the RW get slaughtered, well at least the high casualty rate is in the fluff and the enemy should be in prime shooting range, if they survive the opponents charge they leave combat and go back for more with a charge bonus or just blast away with the rest of the army

The reason for the typhoons and HF on the landspeeders was this. First off the typhoons gave me some long range AT that I lacked, and the HF were for pulling warriors off of objectives in terrain or their crashed raiders. Whether its a 3+ coversave or 2+ (depending on how you play going to ground in area terrain) its difficult to pull of 10 man units. Also the reason T1 I turboed the two speeders with the darkshrouds was to get the bonus to their coversave... which did nothing sadly...

As for hit and run I also agree that they shouldnt be in assault, but its more of a way to get out of it if your bikes are ever caught. Sadly it was either get shot by a ton of splinterfire, or go into combat where Mush needed 6s to wound me... Ill take combat anyday in that situation.

Basically there were several factors that saved Mush from a table. 1st was deployment. Having the table longways saved him from getting so much bolterfire in his face T1. Secondly was Nightfight, which saved his ravagers and raiders from the brunt of my AT T1. Finally was my terrible... terrible rolling. But that happens and there is nothing you can do about it.

It was a good game none-the-less, and the only thing I would probably change would be dropping the assault bikes and picking up more speeders instead. Also I have a feeling that the command squad is just too expensive to run in 1500 pts, but I would definately run it again at 2k

Personally I don't rate flamer templates against Dark Eldar. My most common opponent is a long time DE player and one of his favorite units is Scourges w/Haywire blasters, so I go into those fights knowing I have to keep my distance. Going to agree that against DE Speeders>ABs. A Dark Lance will ruin either units day, but the Speeder can't be touch by splinter fire. We probably differ since you run a pure RW army (at least in that one) and I usually run Iron Wing primary with a splash of RW and rarely DW.

**Leth**

Yep for 28 points a veteran with a combi weapon. So if you are assuming that your sternguard will die then it is in fact cheaper to run the dark angels veterans.

Unit of 10 combat squad-ed out of a drop pod to take out two high profile targets turn one would be quite interesting. For 300 points it would be interesting to see. I could see it reliably killing that many points on the turn it shows up(especially if they have vehicles). Few armies will have nothing worth targeting with two combi melta or plasma squads. Even if it just forces them to turtle up, opening avenues of advance for you then it is a solid investment. Also they still need to kill 10 marines which is not the easiest in the world.

**Clang**

I'm hearing very little enthusiasm for the old Dualwing (i.e. Ravenwing plus Deathwing) combo, and far more for pure Ravenwing or pure Deathwing. Is that just because pure Ravenwing and pure Deathwing have become more viable builds, or has Dualwing actually gotten worse?

**Anpu42**

One of my thoughts for Veterans is to hold one of the Objectives on your side of the board. I know they cant Score, but everyone forgets they can Deny. Then load them up with Combi-Flamers and dare someone to Assault your position.

**Volkov**

Uh huh... and my 3 typhoons were suppose to outgun 2 ravagers, 4 raiders, and 2 reaver squads while his 3 splintercannons picked off my bikes. Lets not even get into T1 having nightfight, to which means if I stayed out 48" away, I could not even think of shooting him, while his entire army could touch mine. Great tactic there guy...

Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you. And that if the difference between a melta shot or not, rapid fire or not....dictate movement for the game. Force him to come where you want. You basically just re-enacted the poem charge of the light brigade.

"'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death"

**DarknessEternal**

Leth wrote:
Yep for 28 points a veteran with a combi weapon. So if you are assuming that your sternguard will die then it is in fact cheaper to run the dark angels veterans.

Unit of 10 combat squad-ed out of a drop pod to take out two high profile targets turn one would be quite interesting. For 300 points it would be interesting to see. I could see it reliably killing that many points on the turn it shows up(especially if they have vehicles). Few armies will have nothing worth targeting with two combi melta or plasma squads. Even if it just forces them to turtle up, opening avenues of advance for you then it is a solid investment. Also they still need to kill 10 marines which is not the easiest in the world.

Exactly. Without my book here, I can't remember, but can one of em take an Auspex?

Volkov wrote:

Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you.

Everything toting a Dark Lance in a DE army can move 12" and fire everything.

**Magister187**

Clang wrote:
I'm hearing very little enthusiasm for the old Dualwing (i.e. Ravenwing plus Deathwing) combo, and far more for pure Ravenwing or pure Deathwing. Is that just because pure Ravenwing and pure Deathwing have become more viable builds, or has Dualwing actually gotten worse?

I think Dualwing has gotten slightly worse due to a few factors (new DW Assault rules, new reserve rules, change in RW Squad rules) but only slightly. I feel like most people are just zeroing in on single Wing instead of looking at the whole army. Personally, I feel DW and RW only armies are much worse options, but only because the rest of the codex has gotten much better (so opportunity cost is higher). In a 6th edition world, I feel like either single wing will have a hard time, while multi-wing options give you a beautifully balanced army.

**Dr. Delorean**

I tend to agree with the general statement that multi-wings are, competitively, a better option in terms of sheer choice and flexibility. You can do a lot more now with just power armoured dudes than you could before.

That being said, no one will ever convince me that playing an army entirely consisting of terminators isn't cool.

**lord of corn**

Im playing a multi-wing army built around Azrael in a tournament this weekend so ill see how it goes. I suspect that the strongest builds for Dark Angels will be multiwing. Getting the right mix of green, bone and black will be the interesting part.

**Shadows Revenge**

Volkov wrote:
Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you. And that if the difference between a melta shot or not, rapid fire or not....dictate movement for the game. Force him to come where you want. You basically just re-enacted the poem charge of the light brigade.

"'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death"

Ravagers have Airial Assault, which allows them to move 12" and shoot everything. Raiders can move 12" and shoot their gun at full BS. Meaning 36" range gun + 12" movement = 48"...

**UnadoptedPuppy**

Shadows Revenge wrote:
Volkov wrote:
Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you. And that if the difference between a melta shot or not, rapid fire or not....dictate movement for the game. Force him to come where you want. You basically just re-enacted the poem charge of the light brigade.

"'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death"

Ravagers have Airial Assault, which allows them to move 12" and shoot everything. Raiders can move 12" and shoot their gun at full BS. Meaning 36" range gun + 12" movement = 48"...

But you still need to move that 12, so what he's saying is if you move and measure correctly you can lure the raiders exactly where you want them.

**DevianID**

The reason why dual wing is worse is 2 fold. First, belial has no scatter and a teleport homer, meaning bike Homers are no longer auto include for deathwing. Second, if you go first the bikes can't assault, meaning small arms or heavy weapon teams will be free to shoot on turn 1 at whatever threat is most pressing, be them termies or bikes.

So while deathwing got a better deathwing assault, 6th Ed made scout much worse on the bikes, and introduced overwatch so the bikes have a hard time assaulting shooty units now. Before, a multimelta attack bike alone was enough to tie up a long fang pack on turn one so no missiles frag your deepstriking termies. Now there is a real chance that overwatch can and will wound and kill that attack bike, freeing them to shoot your termies.

**andystache**

DevianID wrote:
The reason why dual wing is worse is 2 fold. First, belial has no scatter and a teleport homer, meaning bike Homers are no longer auto include for deathwing. Second, if you go first the bikes can't assault, meaning small arms or heavy weapon teams will be free to shoot on turn 1 at whatever threat is most pressing, be them termies or bikes.

So while deathwing got a better deathwing assault, 6th Ed made scout much worse on the bikes, and introduced overwatch so the bikes have a hard time assaulting shooty units now. Before, a multimelta attack bike alone was enough to tie up a long fang pack on turn one so no missiles frag your deepstriking termies. Now there is a real chance that overwatch can and will wound and kill that attack bike, freeing them to shoot your termies.

The key here is to use DW Assault effectively you MUST have units to put on the board. With the update you dictate who comes in T1/T2, but you're still restricted to only having 50% of your army in reserve. DW are not forced to teleport in so they do count against the 50%. Ever 3 man biker squad you take gives you another Termie squad teleporting in. Not to mention basing your entire drop strategy on your opponent not blasting Belial to the warp is a bit to tenuous for my tastes.

EDIT: I find the best army lists for me follow the fluff. Green wing forms a firing position, usually with Backs and a Mortis dread with dual autocannons. Bikes/Speeders hit a flank and termies drop it to crush that flank. having a good base of fire gives me flexibility to counter the other list once I see what the opponent has. Hordes get a firing line, mechs get DW in the side armor, glass cannons get bum rushed

**Mushkilla**

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

But you still need to move that 12, so what he's saying is if you move and measure correctly you can lure the raiders exactly where you want them.

A good DE player will just move flat out in such a way that he is where he want to be, get's a 4+ cover save and your landspeeder can't get away (within 24"). Now he is leading you, you either shoot him or move flat out away. Either way you will get the first shot, but this way you are not controlling where the ravager is (as he can be anywhere within 24" of your speeder), and the ravager gets a better save.

As for outmanoeuvring the DE list, it's a lot easier said then done, splinter cannons have a range of 36" so you can't dance out of range of the warriors. There is also a large highly mobile pressure element in the form of 18 reavers, who will both snap up pain tokens form your bikes on the turn they come in. If you don't have flamers your tough out of luck, you're not going to take on the reavers or get the warriors out of cover.

In the report I think it was safe for Shadow to assume he would take out at least one raider (with only a 4+ cover save). With an assault cannon, a plasma cannon, 3 plasma talons and 36 twinlinked bolter shots, the bolters alone average over 5 glancing hits! First blood is also massive in the relic mission, especially with me going second with so many reavers as they can easily kill your relic runner on the last turn (48" move) forcing you to drop it and making the game go to secondary objectives.

As the DE player I thought I was going to be losing raiders left right and centre. Hanging back would have given me space to move out and systematically eliminate. At-least from my perspective.

**andystache**

Mush - Have you faced a Mortis Dread with two sets of Autocannons?

That's been my go to to drop Raiders/Ravagers from the sky. That and trading a Typhoon for a Ravager. I can usually drop the Rav with the two kraks, but I know that speeders a gonner

**Mushkilla**

andystache wrote:
Mush - Have you faced a Mortis Dread with two sets of Autocannons?

That's been my go to to drop Raiders/Ravagers from the sky. That and trading a Typhoon for a Ravager. I can usually drop the Rav with the two kraks, but I know that speeders a gonner

Yes they are fantastic, and that's one of the many reasons I think greenwing looks like the strongest set up in the book. I find pure ravenwing or pure deathwing to be too constricting, especially when the book has really well priced tactical squads and devastators. At least that's what I think (As an outsider looking in).

**andystache**

Mushkilla wrote:
andystache wrote:
Mush - Have you faced a Mortis Dread with two sets of Autocannons?

That's been my go to to drop Raiders/Ravagers from the sky. That and trading a Typhoon for a Ravager. I can usually drop the Rav with the two kraks, but I know that speeders a gonner

Yes they are fantastic, and that's one of the many reasons I think greenwing looks like the strongest set up in the book. I find pure ravenwing or pure deathwing to be too constricting, especially when the book has really well priced tactical squads and devastators. As an outsider looking in.

I find some of the best ideas come from the people I play against, they read through the book looking for things to kill rather than how to build the army. This weekend we're throwing down 2k DA vs DE grudge match and I'm thinking my FA is going to be 2-3 Typhoons, a Darkshroud, and maybe, maybe some Black Knights.

I'm thinking the TL Assault Cannons on Backs might be worth a look against DE, but I'm not sure how I feel about the 24" range, that's the same range as a haywire blaster and that gun has me shook

**Mushkilla**

I really like the darkshroud, it seem to fulfil three rolls: It gives your army stealth, it helps bikes win combat (+1 to combat results within 12"), and it draws a lot of anti tank fire away from your regular landspeeders. It has a 3+ save just for moving, it's very cheap, shooting it is a bad idea, but if you don't the rest of the army will be better, it's a catch-22 for your opponent.

As for the assault cannon (for the darkshroud) I don't think I would bother, it just makes it more expensive for little gain, a lot of the time you will be wanting to turbo boost the darkshroud for a 2+ cover save, or repositioning to protect a different group of bikes. Not getting the assault cannons means you don't feel guilty when you move flat out. Also like you said the range is a limiting factor, 36" means you can lay down some fire without taking risks. This is even more apparent now that you can't remove models that were not in range of the shooting unit at the time of shooting (latest FAQ), meaning you need to be closer than 24" to kill more than one model with the assault cannons.

Hope that helps.

**Compel**

They FAQ'ed out the stealth on it, so it's only normal cover saves it gets.

**Mushkilla**

Compel wrote:
They FAQ'ed out the stealth on it, so it's only normal cover saves it gets.

It has shrouded and jink, so that means when it moves it has a 3+ save (5+ jink +2 for shrouded) and when it moves flat out it has a 2+ cover save (4+ jink +2 for shrouded). Isn't that what I said?

**andystache**

Compel wrote:
They FAQ'ed out the stealth on it, so it's only normal cover saves it gets.

You know except that it's Shrouded... and a fast skimmer... so moving 1" gives it a 5+ jink cover save and shrouded lowers that to 3+... and if you move flat out it improves by another +1 dropping it to 2+

Mush - I was more thinking on the TL Assault Cannons on the new Razorback loadout (new to me at least), but your points about the Darkshroud still have merit. I think I'll be using HBs a lot more on speeders now that we pay for the MM upgrade. Although fighting a 6th Ed city fight a Typhoon with MM is just... well it's a floating wrecking ball that blows up buildings but good

EDIT: Mush you and I are a little too on point today

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

I was gonna do a dualwing force with DA, but with the new changes to vector strikes, I feel Ravenwing would be massacred by any CSM army with 2 or 3 Heldrakes. So its pure Deathwing for me!

**TedNugent**

Leth wrote:
Yep for 28 points a veteran with a combi weapon. So if you are assuming that your sternguard will die then it is in fact cheaper to run the dark angels veterans.

Unit of 10 combat squad-ed out of a drop pod to take out two high profile targets turn one would be quite interesting. For 300 points it would be interesting to see. I could see it reliably killing that many points on the turn it shows up(especially if they have vehicles). Few armies will have nothing worth targeting with two combi melta or plasma squads. Even if it just forces them to turtle up, opening avenues of advance for you then it is a solid investment. Also they still need to kill 10 marines which is not the easiest in the world.

Sternguard will die because Sternguard are actually dangerous after their combis are expended. Because unlike DA Vets, Sternguard Boltguns are actually a threat. They threaten MCs, MEQs, Orks, Guardsmen with equal indifference. For 2 points you'd be nuts to take the DA Vets w/ Combis given the choice.

It's dubious, I think, that anyone would even bother shooting a unit of DA Vets after they've expended their Combi Boltguns.

**andystache**

TedNugent wrote:
Leth wrote:
Yep for 28 points a veteran with a combi weapon. So if you are assuming that your sternguard will die then it is in fact cheaper to run the dark angels veterans.

Unit of 10 combat squad-ed out of a drop pod to take out two high profile targets turn one would be quite interesting. For 300 points it would be interesting to see. I could see it reliably killing that many points on the turn it shows up(especially if they have vehicles). Few armies will have nothing worth targeting with two combi melta or plasma squads. Even if it just forces them to turtle up, opening avenues of advance for you then it is a solid investment. Also they still need to kill 10 marines which is not the easiest in the world.

Sternguard will die because Sternguard are actually dangerous after their combis are expended. Because unlike DA Vets, Sternguard Boltguns are actually a threat. They threaten MCs, MEQs, Orks, Guardsmen with equal indifference. For 2 points you'd be nuts to take the DA Vets w/ Combis given the choice.

It's dubious, I think, that anyone would even bother shooting a unit of DA Vets after they've expended their Combi Boltguns.

Can I play you? Please? As others have pointed out a 6 man squad of Vets in a Razorback with combi-flamers can be a lynchpin in a greenwing or combined wing. Park them in front of your main firing line and just let someone charge. I'll take 6d3 automatic hits for overwatch and then 12 attacks in CC against just about anything, especially big and scary. You're not making it through them without taking some damage (dice willing) and now you're right in front of the rest of my guns.

Alternately you can field them with PP/BP and stick a Libby in with them and now you have a unit that fires 5-6 S7 and 5-6 S4 shots, rerolling then charging in with 20 attacks + the Libby's

**TedNugent**

andystache wrote:
TedNugent wrote:

Sternguard will die because Sternguard are actually dangerous after their combis are expended. Because unlike DA Vets, Sternguard Boltguns are actually a threat. They threaten MCs, MEQs, Orks, Guardsmen with equal indifference. For 2 points you'd be nuts to take the DA Vets w/ Combis given the choice.

It's dubious, I think, that anyone would even bother shooting a unit of DA Vets after they've expended their Combi Boltguns.

Can I play you? Please? As others have pointed out a 6 man squad of Vets in a Razorback with combi-flamers can be a lynchpin in a greenwing or combined wing. Park them in front of your main firing line and just let someone charge. I'll take 6d3 automatic hits for overwatch and then 12 attacks in CC against just about anything, especially big and scary. You're not making it through them without taking some damage (dice willing) and now you're right in front of the rest of my guns.

Alternately you can field them with PP/BP and stick a Libby in with them and now you have a unit that fires 5-6 S7 and 5-6 S4 shots, rerolling then charging in with 20 attacks + the Libby's

I just said it was dubious whether anyone would even shoot at them, why would I charge them if they had combi-flamers? If they had combi-flamers, the last thing I would do is charge them. If your strategy is to spend nearly 30p a model and just -hope- someone charges you....

**andystache**

TedNugent wrote:
andystache wrote:
TedNugent wrote:

Sternguard will die because Sternguard are actually dangerous after their combis are expended. Because unlike DA Vets, Sternguard Boltguns are actually a threat. They threaten MCs, MEQs, Orks, Guardsmen with equal indifference. For 2 points you'd be nuts to take the DA Vets w/ Combis given the choice.

It's dubious, I think, that anyone would even bother shooting a unit of DA Vets after they've expended their Combi Boltguns.

Can I play you? Please? As others have pointed out a 6 man squad of Vets in a Razorback with combi-flamers can be a lynchpin in a greenwing or combined wing. Park them in front of your main firing line and just let someone charge. I'll take 6d3 automatic hits for overwatch and then 12 attacks in CC against just about anything, especially big and scary. You're not making it through them without taking some damage (dice willing) and now you're right in front of the rest of my guns.

Alternately you can field them with PP/BP and stick a Libby in with them and now you have a unit that fires 5-6 S7 and 5-6 S4 shots, rerolling then charging in with 20 attacks + the Libby's

I just said it was dubious whether anyone would even shoot at them, why would I charge them if they had combi-flamers? If they had combi-flamers, the last thing I would do is charge them. If your strategy is to spend nearly 30p a model and just -hope- someone charges you....

So you're going to go around my unit to avoid the flamers? I'm very ok with that since I run gun line Iron Wing. The more I force you to maneuver the more time I have to shoot you. That's a specific load out for specific armies, I was more pointing out that if you don't rate that unit to be shot I have no problem because they'll quietly come in and ruin your day.

For much less you can give all of the vets Storm Bolters, one of the most underrated options in that codex

**DevianID**

TedNugent, on the topic of combi's the vets do have something that makes them more appealing than sternguard, which is the salvo banner. Since you need to advance your tacticals and bolter banner into the enemies range anyway, the turn after you fire your combi's you will probably be in bolter banner range unless your pod had some horriffic scatter, and even then you can move a few models in the vet unit to daisy chain them to the banner, losing the salvo on the models that move but preserving it on the models that dont move.

The biggest issue I have with the bolter banner is what to do to open up the transports in the first place, so you can blot out the sun with bolts. In many lists combi veterans will be the answer to that question.

Also, I must say its not an either or approach. You CAN have sternguard if you want, what with them being battle brothers in 2 different codexes to the DA.

As to the plas pistol option, I dont like it. While I like plasma, a pistol priced at 15 points is way too much. Combiplas is valued at 5 points per 12 inch plasma shot. A plasma pistol needs to shoot 3 times to match that same shot per point efficiency. That is completely unrealistic. Yes, you get extra attacks in close combat with the plasma pistol, but if you want to be better in cc then you take a mix of combi plas and power weapons. On a 10 man squad, the 150 you would spend on 10 plasma pistols gets you 10 combi plas and 2 power fists. You lose out on total plasma shots after you have fired 3 times with the plasma pistols (and no one died to over heat on the first shots lowering your shot count) but trade 16 s4 attacks on the charge for 6 s8 ap 2 attacks.

**TedNugent**

lord of corn wrote:
Im playing a multi-wing army built around Azrael in a tournament this weekend so ill see how it goes. I suspect that the strongest builds for Dark Angels will be multiwing. Getting the right mix of green, bone and black will be the interesting part.

Batreps and list please :3

**Leth**

Also if you are willing to ignore the veterans, then sweet free linebreaker for me.

**Tomb King**

Anyone else notice that azrael cant be taken in an allied detachment due to the requirement that he must be your warlord.

Same page azraels master crafted combi weapon... the way its described makes it sound like it has 2 plasma guns.

Kind of sucks that dark angels lack codex psychic powers...

final note: I heard someone mention a 20 model land raider. I dont see any above 16.