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 Ratbarf wrote:
But how expensive is it? Are we talking like Long Fang cheap here? Or is that something that's going to eat points like a fat man eats cookies?

Expensive... akin to Eldar War Walker spam with scatter lazers.

Like 1275... I think.

Then, you can fill 5/6 troops with scouts+ ML (flakk) +camo... maybe 2 tech priest to fortify some terrains.

*shrugs*

Kinda nasty... but, totally all shooty.

I'd probably do just 2 squads of 4/5 speeders + Ravenwing Knights.

Still theory hammering here...

You're talking about something like the equivalent of 4 Missile Launchers and 2 HB on 2 Land Speeders versus 5 Missile Launchers on the Long Fangs (spare 10p in favor of the LF).

 TedNugent wrote:
You're talking about something like the equivalent of 4 Missile Launchers and 2 HB on 2 Land Speeders versus 5 Missile Launchers on the Long Fangs (spare 10p in favor of the LF).

True... but the point is to spam 'em out. If that's the goal, Landspeeder is the way to go...

Just saying.

So I tried to make the same deathwing list I did with the old dex. I found myself substantially overpaying for everything that I used to have. With practically the same loadout and equipment. Why jack up the points on so many models when they struggled to be competitive to begin with?

75 points for cyclone is tough but if you run them you are probably gonna need to reserve them if not going first. Also if spamming then definatly gonna need a darkshroud or two.

They added new rules to deathwing and ravenwing that definitely made them better, hence the price increase. Also, thss should be a points increase as it was flat better than the alternate options. Ravenwing got cheaper for a standard bike, but unless you ran a lot of bikes your list will be different due to deathwing increases.

Holy crap, my DE and my bud's IG just got hosed by a ravenwing list with the salvo banner- so much dakka! Does the banner work from within a vehicle and does it affect hurricane bolters? I read the entry and it just said "boltguns" but the hurricane bolter did not have its own separate entry in the armory so I figured they just count as 3 twinlinked boltguns.

Holy crap though, our Dark Angel friend just hovered two dark talons next to a crusader with the banner inside and poured out an absolutely horrid amount of shots ( not to mention from the bikers nearby). Yowza! Lance spam hooo, venerable landraiders make my blood boil.

Gotta get dem haywire nades- the 75 point landspeeders squadded up with two missile shots a piece are killer as well.

5 typhon 48 range not much shooting back at you.

canadianguy wrote:
5 typhon 48 range not much shooting back at you.

Anything that does is going to shred you though.

Fly the length of your back field with a shroud an have a fairly static gun line w a large DW deep strike unit

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

canadianguy wrote:
5 typhon 48 range not much shooting back at you.

Anything that does is going to shred you though.

True... but the true value in these squads is that they're skimmer..

48" range plus PRE-MEASURE=hard to hit skimmer!

Don't forget, pre-measure makes it really easy to anticpate your opponent's movement while making sure your skimmer is in range to lob those missiles.

Page 26 of dark angels book. Who the hell are the watchers in the dark? They have my primarch and I want him back.

 Tomb King wrote:
Page 26 of dark angels book. Who the hell are the watchers in the dark? They have my primarch and I want him back.

If there was a like button I would've pressed it like hell! xD

He is the only primarch that is retained and with his army. Lol. They just dont know it.

The lion is taking a little kip. (If they hadn't nailed him to the perch he'd be pushing up the daisies). He's in stasis in the Rock, his wounds fully healed, not to awaken until the last days of the Empire for the big fight to come. Or something to that effect.

The watchers are either a Xenos species, or benevolent warp entity that has watched over the galaxy and mankind since its beggings. They do not seem directly evil, although I am sure the inquisiton would love to hear that Jonson and the DA have had delings wih them since before the big E showed up on caliban. It is also mentioned that the watchers are par of a cabal, is this the same cabal that Holds influence with the Alpha legion (The Cabal, a group of Xenos species bent on stopping Chaos from consuming the galaxy)? I think it's a possibility. Gotta read Descent of Angels and Legion to dig up the little details.

With all that, I really want to make an end of days Campaign or something using some Horus heresy stuff.


also, do you guys think it's worth having the Relic with the knights?

Do you think 7th edition will be the death of the emperor or something of that apocolyptic nature and the primarchs make their return?

 Tomb King wrote:
Do you think 7th edition will be the death of the emperor or something of that apocolyptic nature and the primarchs make their return?

I doubt it. The only way something like that will happen is if GW's sales dip far enough into the negatives. If they sense the grimdarkness getting stale they would possibly do something drastic, such as having the end of days come upon the empire of man. Cast new primarch models, encourage bigger games, etc. In 7th edition? Probably not. 12th edition? Maybe!

 gpfunk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Do you think 7th edition will be the death of the emperor or something of that apocolyptic nature and the primarchs make their return?

I doubt it. The only way something like that will happen is if GW's sales dip far enough into the negatives. If they sense the grimdarkness getting stale they would possibly do something drastic, such as having the end of days come upon the empire of man. Cast new primarch models, encourage bigger games, etc. In 7th edition? Probably not. 12th edition? Maybe!

So around 2035??? Damn one can hope for sooner.

Played some games with my old deathwing list, figured I'd share. I took belial, 5 deathwing squads with 4 thss, 1 sb/CF, cyclone on each. I had 6 bikes with 2 melta, vet fist, and multimelta attack bike. I also had 2 speeders with missiles and multimelta.

Now, at 2k points my old list dropped 3 bikes but added a land raider, and belials squad had fnp and +1 attack. I really missed both the raider and upgrades on belial, but the command squad termies are no longer scoring. I do like the deathwing banner though for +1 attack to 6 inches, and may try that in the future.

Anyway, in the games I found myself going first a lot. In previous editions this would be amazing as it meant the bikes could assault on 1 and 3 termie squads would follow up turn 2. Now, the bikes kind of sit there and 5 termie units assault on 2. That meant my army could not lock up nasty units before they shot up my termies, which really hurt. Also, overwatch in the games I played wrecked havoc, for example a guard command squad killed 2 terminators with 9 Las shots on overwatch. Obviously that is unlikely, but as I always say terminators are likely to survive an armor save with a 2+, if the likely events always happened terminators would never lose.

So anyway, I found the small bike units did well as homer scouts, and rarely died, but dangerous terrain hurts just as bad. Yes I know that you get an armor save, however now you take a dangerous terrain check for every single piece of terrain. Since there is more terrain on boards (several small bits of terrain to make up an average sized area) , that means more dangerous checks, hence why bikes with their long movement range suffer many dangerous rolls. In one game I gave my opponent first blood on my turn 1 with a bad set of rolls on the attack bike.

Still though, attack bikes are awesome, scouting melta bikes are great versus vehicles, and I assaulted a few units simply to use the awesome hit and run for a free 3d6 inches towards a tank. I also failed the roll and had similiar plans ruined, so it's not quite a perfect option. I am looking forward to trying either black knights or banner buffed bikes, since I felt the main drawback on the bikes was low damage... Many opponents simply ignored them, and without azzy or Sammy they are not even scoring.

The speeders were great, but I really felt that they were too fragile. The difference between an 85 point melta missile speeder and 75 point Las plasma razor is awfully narrow. The Bolter missile speeder lacks the anti vehicle punch, and since regular marines handle infantry just fine the speeders are on the chopping block. 2 hull points and av10 are turning into deal breakers. Now, a large speeder unit backed by a dark shroud may be different, but as it stands the razorback seems superior to the speeder in every way I care about currently. As an aside, my speeders died to hull points much more than to real anti tank weapons, and keeping them 48 inches back cuts so much firepower off them both from the multimelta and because terrain actually blocks Los the past few years, limiting my target selection to what I see not what I need dead. I need to shoot at what needs killing, not targets of opportunity as I keep myself safe.

Into belial. Obviously hamstrung by only carrying a 5 man squad, his no scatter deepstrike was still really useful. While not great, I definately like the idea of a turn 2 charge on anything thanks to belial. Sadly I think he combos better with knights instead of deathwing termies for assault reasons, but knights don't become troops with belial. Also, command squads suffer from both not being troops and only being 5 strong. Using them for banner work is questionable at best, since you have to be within 6 inches to grant +1 attack but can not afford any casualties before the banner is at risk. Also, sticking belial in that squad robs another 5 termies from a 10 man squad from no scatter.

On to terminator squads. With cyclone, 4 thss, and a chainfist I was spending 270. In the old edition I would use the 2 reserve termie units to pick up unattended objectives since only 3 could drop down. Now, however, spending 270 to take an objective is unsustainable. Heck even in 5th 12 point objective holders existed but they were slow, but now with allies and flyers many armies claim objectives either cheaper or with mobility (eldar bikes and necron scythes being 2 stand out examples). Scoring dw termies make no sense, your termies need to be busting heads in close combat to justify their point cost. Otherwise an aegis with a scout squad is cheaper and still enjoys a 2+ versus shooting thanks to go to ground. 4 scout squads and 20 elite termies are better in almost every way than 25 scoring termies.

Also, psychic powers are terrible for dw. Yes, they hurt everyone, but terminators have more to lose than anyone else. For example, misfortune practically doubles the damage termies take. Misfortune on a tac squad results in 66 percent more saves instead of 83 percent on termies, and you get 3 tacticals for less than 1 terminator. At least dw knights get adamantine will, not a great solution but better than nothing.

Finally, when it comes down to old wound allocation versus the new system, dw termies suffer greatly. With only 5 models, and with the enemy dictating what wounds to save first, I constantly found my chainfist with a 5++ an issue. Normally, you want him to make armor saves and the ss models to make invulns. In this edition you have no choice, and your enemy will order the saves in the worst way for you. This means you need bigger squads and less special models in a position to take damage. So I'll probably never take a chainfist again, or maybe one in 10 if land raiders pop up everywhere, because in the games you will need a special model your opponent is sure to snipe him out, and in other games the points and different save are a liability. Again the deathwing knights solve this issue with a storm shield on everyone, no special gear, and all regular models able to hulk out at s10 for a turn so you don't need a chainfist, but I still have to test them in numbers.

I hope to test belial with company vets in a raider with Ezekiel or chappy as a replacement to terminators soon, we will see. Also want to try 10 knights with belial for no scatter versus just scouted bike teleport Homers, as 190 just for no scatter is feeling really pricy on belial.

Thanks for the feedback. I've been eyeing up a mix of termies and scouts for my DW army.

I'm probably gonna be using storm bolters on my Terminators to take advantage of the splitfire and TL ranged. That's where a lot of the points cost comes from, plus they're making you spend even more points to get the TH/SS.

Yep deathwing regulars are gonna have to be shooty, which sucks if you've already invested in a Belial army in 5th. I guess those TH/SS models will have to become knights...

The speeder squadrons suffer from being FA choices. Black Knights are the winner here, but if I can spare a slot... If only they could be HS they'd be in every list. I do like taking the single speeder when you have Ravenwing troops.

So I finally got in a game with the new codex last night. I really want to build a greenwing and ravenwing army, however I chose to start off with Deathwing. This is the list I have been toying with and will make changes based on how the different setups I try, work;

Belial

8 DW Terminators (CML, 3 TH/SS)

7 DW Terminators (AC, 2 TH/SS)

7 DW Terminators (4 TH/SS, 2 LC)

3 RW Bikes

Land Raider

Land Raider Crusader (w/Multimelta)

I put Belial in the 8-man squad and had them strike on turn one, with the 7-man squad w/AC coming in turn two. I put the last 7-man squad in the Crusader. I faced an Imperial Guard list that had, as memory serves;

CCS
Two small Platoons
2 HWT (Lascannons)
Melta-vets
Vendetta
Leman Russ Executioner
Manticore
2 LRBT
ADL w/Quad-gun

I got the first turn and dropped Belial right next to the CCS and split-fired the CML into the Executioner's side armor (exploding it!) and had Belial and the balance of the squad shoot at the CCS wiping it out to a man (netting me First Blood, Slay the Warlord and +1 for The Hunt, not to mention Linebreaker..). My Ravenwing bikers fared poorly and died turn one while managing to take one Imperial Guardsman with them. I proceeded to table my opponent while losing a few wounds on Belial and about 7 Terminators total.

I did have some good rolls overall, which largely allowed me to table my opponent. Belial's squad dropping an Executioner and the CCS with the opening shots of the game was easily the highlight and wrong-footed my opponent right from the start. My initial thoughts after one game were:

1) Deathwing Assault, Vengeful Strike, Tactical Precision and Split Fire are a nasty combination, which makes me glad I went relatively light on Hammernators overall (at least compared to 5th edition, that is) and stuck with shooting. I was very pleased with how well these mixed squads performed.

2) The melee heavy Terminator squad didn't do much this game, but that was due largely to them deploying inside the Land Raider Crusader on my right flank while my opponent (who deployed second) placed a lot of the army on my left flank. I like the idea of deploying them inside the Crusader and giving them a chance to assault from it. I will try this a few more times to see how it works.

3) The Land Raiders, on paper, seemed like expensive point sinks but with 15 Terminators + Belial being deployed immediately within my opponents lines forced him to focus on them, leaving the Land Raiders relatively unscathed. I like the dual Land Raider setup and it gives me a powerful punch with shooting. I'll continue to run them to see the results.

4) The Ravenwing Bikes did practically nothing at all and wound up dying spectacularly to massed Lasgun fire. At first it soured me on using them again, but after some thought I decided to try them again. I made a mistake by zipping them into the open on my first turn hoping to score some wounds with their guns and thinking their 3+ armor save and T5 would keep them safe, coupled with Belial deploying on turn one and being a much, much more tempting target. My opponent made some good rolls, while I rolled poorly and it took him just one Infantry squad to destroy all three bikes.

5) The lack of EW on Belial puts him at grave risk of being flattened by Str8+ weapons and my opponent had three pie plates that could ID him. I held my breath every time I was forced to roll his save against one of those shots. However, what you are really paying for is Tactical Precision and a Teleport Homer, so if Belial does kick the bucket, it won't be until after you've got whatever squad he is with on the table safely and in a good position. The Bikes are (ideally) my back up Teleport Homer in case someone puts Belial down on turn one before I can drop my second squad.

All in all a good showing for the Deathwing. I'll be running this same list for a while, and plan to get in a game next week against Necrons.

I thought "the hunt" only worked when Belial or his squad kill the warlord in the assault phase?

Also, no chimeras for the Ccs? Or did you kill it first before the storm bolter volley?

All in all good results, but it seems like a perfect storm setup, as the guard took a lot of anti-meta choices with limited infantry, no chimeras, and bad luck. Exploding av13 with 2 tl missile shots on the most dangerous tank the guard player had was no doubt awesome, but was the Ccs in the open to have died from storm bolters? Or just bad saves for the guard?

Interested to hear more results, seeing as I wrote off dw regular termies right before you had positive experiences with them.

As for Belial and s8 weapons, I too fear the instant death, which is a reason I am excited to try him with dw knights for the t5 bonus. It wouldn't help versus the manticore, but would with the battle cannons and meltas you were up against.

DevianID wrote:
I thought "the hunt" only worked when Belial or his squad kill the warlord in the assault phase?

Also, no chimeras for the Ccs? Or did you kill it first before the storm bolter volley?

All in all good results, but it seems like a perfect storm setup, as the guard took a lot of anti-meta choices with limited infantry, no chimeras, and bad luck. Exploding av13 with 2 tl missile shots on the most dangerous tank the guard player had was no doubt awesome, but was the Ccs in the open to have died from storm bolters? Or just bad saves for the guard?

Interested to hear more results, seeing as I wrote off dw regular termies right before you had positive experiences with them.

As for Belial and s8 weapons, I too fear the instant death, which is a reason I am excited to try him with dw knights for the t5 bonus. It wouldn't help versus the manticore, but would with the battle cannons and meltas you were up against.

Ah, you know what, The Hunt does only work in the Assault Phase. A rather important tidbit that they included on the Warlord Trait list on page 28 but left off of the Warlord Trait list on the fold-out in the back of the book. Oh well, something to remember.

There was no Chimera for the CCS, they were out in the open and subject to my massed SB fire. With Belial and whichever squad he joins not scattering, I can pretty easily decapitate a Guard player who doesn't put their CCS in a Chimera or bubble-wrap them in Guardsmen. Lessons were learned on both sides so I'll be interested to see what changes he makes knowing just how devastating the Deathwing Assault can be.

 Brock79 wrote:

1) Deathwing Assault, Vengeful Strike, Tactical Precision and Split Fire are a nasty combination, which makes me glad I went relatively light on Hammernators overall (at least compared to 5th edition, that is) and stuck with shooting. I was very pleased with how well these mixed squads performed.

I've normally gone with mixed squads and so far am loving this. Don't like them being more expensive but like you said, those abilities do really add to their ability to carve something to bits if you pick your targets right.

 Brock79 wrote:

4) The Ravenwing Bikes did practically nothing at all and wound up dying spectacularly to massed Lasgun fire. At first it soured me on using them again, but after some thought I decided to try them again. I made a mistake by zipping them into the open on my first turn hoping to score some wounds with their guns and thinking their 3+ armor save and T5 would keep them safe, coupled with Belial deploying on turn one and being a much, much more tempting target. My opponent made some good rolls, while I rolled poorly and it took him just one Infantry squad to destroy all three bikes.

I had this happen in a game versus some Terminators. The T5 is nice, but still have to be careful. I'm thinking if you're using Belial their homers are far less important now though. Still a decent option, and possibly important if you have a larger number of Deathwing to drop though I've only used a few squads in the games I've played so far and at that number it's one or the other. Unless you're maybe running scoring bikes.

 Brock79 wrote:

5) The lack of EW on Belial puts him at grave risk of being flattened by Str8+ weapons and my opponent had three pie plates that could ID him. I held my breath every time I was forced to roll his save against one of those shots. However, what you are really paying for is Tactical Precision and a Teleport Homer, so if Belial does kick the bucket, it won't be until after you've got whatever squad he is with on the table safely and in a good position. The Bikes are (ideally) my back up Teleport Homer in case someone puts Belial down on turn one before I can drop my second squad.

Not to mention a WS6 with Master Crafted Fleshbane as well. Not a huge deal versus squishy guardsmen but the times I've ended up in CC have generally went well. That ++4 certainly seems nice to have in that setup at least though.

DevianID wrote:
Yeah, vets as combi platforms and azrael bodyguards are the 2 best uses I can find for them.

Isn't that all Sternguard and power armor Wolf Guard are good for? Seems like that'd be what you would get from the DA version, too.

 Scrollax wrote:

 Scrollax wrote:


Can someone please let me know what the differences in this dex are between the standard chappy and the interrogator? and possibly if you think they are viable options in this edition.

Also the special issue wargear ive been hearing about specifically displacer shield and the likes, who can these items be given too?

Thanks

Could someone with the dex please answer my questions, as I'm not gunna get to look at the dex till Monday and I really can't that long!

An interrogator chaplian is a member of the inner circle meaning fearless and preferred enemy(CSM).
An interrogator chaplian can go into terminator armor.
An interrogator chaplian can be outfitted with chapter relics.
An interrogator chaplian gets 3 wounds instead of 2.

So unless you want 1 or more of these 4 things, save the money and field a chaplain.

Does anyone else find it odd that they left out ATSKNF on almost a lot of our characters? Did it get fixed in the faq? I didn't see it their personally.