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whoadirty wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
Saying it's not rubbish because it's only outclasses by 3 models in it's type(I say 4 because the stormtalon is far better as well), when there is only 6 models in that type to start with is a bad way to look at it.

How are you handling flyers with your DA Coyote81?

One dev squad with 4xflakk missiles, two seperate 5man squads with one flakk missile and a ADL with quadgun or Lascannon, sometiems a bastion with either/or.

I have also brought the vindicare in the bastion with a Mallus Inq and some gk strikes for anti flamer defense.

One of the units I am having issue with it the Command Squad Champion, for the price of a Plasma gun you get a S5 AP5 W1 I4[1] A 2/3 3+/6++ Character to get slaughtered in Close Combat

Especially when you compare it to the halberd of caliban on the terminator sergeant, ugghh

Combat Shields have been garbage for a while now. They used to be one worse than storm Shields, but they buffed storm Shields and debuffed combat Shields.

As for the weapon, I don't get it either. the Caliban blade is worse than a power axe for little discernable reason. The total package is a worse storm shield and worse power weapon for half the cost of both good versions. Really it seems he is only good for having a character upgrade to chump out in a challenge, which is definately not how the company champion should be acting.

You would think being the company champion he would have access to a vast array of weapons and wargear. I don't know why GW makes combat shields such garbage, ~16% invulnerable save is next to worthless. WS 5 is no nearly worth the "upgrade" I would rather have another WS 4 guy with storm shield and hverhe option of picking what weapon he is gonna use.

it seems his only purpose it to take Chalanges for the Apothicary/IC

 Volkov wrote:

Uh huh... and my 3 typhoons were suppose to outgun 2 ravagers, 4 raiders, and 2 reaver squads while his 3 splintercannons picked off my bikes. Lets not even get into T1 having nightfight, to which means if I stayed out 48" away, I could not even think of shooting him, while his entire army could touch mine. Great tactic there guy...

Well unless they changed the range for typhoons and dark lances you should have a 12" advantage, and being able to pre-measure should guarantee you are taking full advantage. If he wants to fire back he has to close 12 inches with you. And that if the difference between a melta shot or not, rapid fire or not....dictate movement for the game. Force him to come where you want. You basically just re-enacted the poem charge of the light brigade.

what DE vehicle doesnt have a night shield these days? That reduces your range to 42" and DE vehicles can move 12 and fire everything at full effect so they can glide where they want to smack you back.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

Nearly every "fix" I've seen for the Neph is just a veiled attempt to give the army an uber-unit. There was a thread over in Discussion that wanted S7 AP2 weapons on it.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Not every unit is a winner and the codices are not written for every unit to be in a tourney list. If you're really that bent out of shape just use the C:SM book with DA models.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

Erm, chaos hellbrute ?

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

Erm, chaos hellbrute ?

That was a misprint though.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

Erm, chaos hellbrute ?

only a misprint in the english edition


seriously why so many errors only in the english version from an english company

Quick question: what's better at 1500 pts? One 10-man Deathwing squad, or two 5-mans?

Asking because my trial-by-fire for DA will be in the form of a 1500 pt tourney tomorrow (in which, yes, I will be posting a brief batrep to this thread with my thoughts on the whole thing).

List is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503208.page#5217082

tiberius183 wrote:
Quick question: what's better at 1500 pts? One 10-man Deathwing squad, or two 5-mans?

Asking because my trial-by-fire for DA will be in the form of a 1500 pt tourney tomorrow (in which, yes, I will be posting a brief batrep to this thread with my thoughts on the whole thing).

List is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503208.page#5217082

Go 10 man and then you split them into combat squads if the situation demands it.

I don't think DW can combat squad. It's not in their rules.

Honestly if the blackswords were S7 the Niph would be worth it. Seriously what are the missiles for at S6 on an air superiority fighter? I'd rather have hurricane bolters on it like the dark talon, which is much more useful as stated before.

I have been looking at the Veteran Squads. If done right they may be expensive, could also be real effective.
At 5 men you can get a Special Weapon and a Heavy Weapon, at 10 that makes it 2 Special Weapons and a Heavy Weapon. With the FAQ fix they all can take additional weapons upgrades.

I could easily break them into Combat Squads with the Sergeant and 2x Plasma Guns while the other Squad will have the Heavy Weapon [like a missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles.

I could also make them a good body guard for Azrael when at full size near a Dakka Banner hidden in a Land Raider.

I have been looking at the Ravenwing Dark Talon and I don’t think it is as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Look at its weapons, the 2x Hurricane Bolters and a Rift Cannon. If you look at the Weapons Ranges it is defiantly a Close in Air Support Aircraft similar to an A-10 or more like a P-47 Thunder Bolt.

The Hurricane Bolters will do lots of damage epically if you can get yourself near the Dakka Banner [Just think about Parking it in Hover Strike Mode over it]. Then there is the Rift Cannon, it has a lousy range, low strength and a small blast, but it has Blind. For you who have not read Bland, Any Unit you hit [Not Wound] a model and then it must Pass an Initiative Test or The Unit become WS-1, BS-1 the end of its next turn. While not likely to happen to things like Genestealers or Eldar, you have a decent chance vs. a lot of other units it could really mess up, like that Carnifex your Deathwing is about to Assault. I think it has the possibility of become a game changer in many games. I will defanatly be giving one a try in the future.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have been looking at the Ravenwing Dark Talon and I don’t think it is as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Look at its weapons, the 2x Hurricane Bolters and a Rift Cannon. If you look at the Weapons Ranges it is defiantly a Close in Air Support Aircraft similar to an A-10 or more like a P-47 Thunder Bolt.

The Hurricane Bolters will do lots of damage epically if you can get yourself near the Dakka Banner [Just think about Parking it in Hover Strike Mode over it]. Then there is the Rift Cannon, it has a lousy range, low strength and a small blast, but it has Blind. For you who have not read Bland, Any Unit you hit [Not Wound] a model and then it must Pass an Initiative Test or The Unit become WS-1, BS-1 the end of its next turn. While not likely to happen to things like Genestealers or Eldar, you have a decent chance vs. a lot of other units it could really mess up, like that Carnifex your Deathwing is about to Assault. I think it has the possibility of become a game changer in many games. I will defanatly be giving one a try in the future.

I think the big issue with the Dark Talon, like the Neph, is it's only going to get a chance to use it's weapons once, if that. A Quadgun alone has a pretty good chance of taking out an AV 11 flyer before it can even do anything.. Then, when you have to deal with any other flyer, it will quickly go down. It also costs more than a lot of the flyers out there.

 Sasori wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have been looking at the Ravenwing Dark Talon and I don’t think it is as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Look at its weapons, the 2x Hurricane Bolters and a Rift Cannon. If you look at the Weapons Ranges it is defiantly a Close in Air Support Aircraft similar to an A-10 or more like a P-47 Thunder Bolt.

The Hurricane Bolters will do lots of damage epically if you can get yourself near the Dakka Banner [Just think about Parking it in Hover Strike Mode over it]. Then there is the Rift Cannon, it has a lousy range, low strength and a small blast, but it has Blind. For you who have not read Bland, Any Unit you hit [Not Wound] a model and then it must Pass an Initiative Test or The Unit become WS-1, BS-1 the end of its next turn. While not likely to happen to things like Genestealers or Eldar, you have a decent chance vs. a lot of other units it could really mess up, like that Carnifex your Deathwing is about to Assault. I think it has the possibility of become a game changer in many games. I will defanatly be giving one a try in the future.

I think the big issue with the Dark Talon, like the Neph, is it's only going to get a chance to use it's weapons once, if that. A Quadgun alone has a pretty good chance of taking out an AV 11 flyer before it can even do anything.. Then, when you have to deal with any other flyer, it will quickly go down. It also costs more than a lot of the flyers out there.

Probably, but that could be said about any AV11 Vehicle. I don’t think it will be that much of an issue with a Deathwing List, just take out the Quad Gun with a Deathwing Squad; Problem Solved. As far as other fighters I think everyone has come up with there way of dealing with them.
Now I would never take Dark Talon in a game less the 2k. at that point you should have enough other stuff out there that your opponent will ignore the “Worthless Dark Talon” giving you enough time to inflict some damage.
The tactic I was thinking was using a Ravenwing Bike Command Squad with a Dakka Banner and two other Ravenwing Bike Squads just rum up one Flank and when the Dark Talon [or two] comes in just park it over them.

I'd like to talk about something.

What about Combi-weapons on Deathwing models? Combi-plas, Melta, Flamer...

Seems like this hasn't been discussed enough - DA Terminators have a decidedly more ranged flavor than other Codeces due to Vengeance Strike and their Deep Striking nature. Are combi weapons a good idea? If so, what kinds and in what quantities?

 TedNugent wrote:
I'd like to talk about something.

What about Combi-weapons on Deathwing models? Combi-plas, Melta, Flamer...

Seems like this hasn't been discussed enough - DA Terminators have a decidedly more ranged flavor than other Codeces due to Vengeance Strike and their Deep Striking nature. Are combi weapons a good idea? If so, what kinds and in what quantities?

I hate to be the guy saying read the codex, but read the codex. No Deathwing squad has the option to take combi-weapons anywhere, not even on their sergeants (who don't have access to the armory).

You're right that Deathwing can't, but other terminators can, so his point is a very interesting idea. The "Terminator Weapons" section of the Armoury includes combi weapons, and the Lion's Roar chapter relic would fit the description as well, I'd say. In that regard, TDA Chaplains, librarians and company masters can all DS/DWA and get the benefit of vengeful strike with a combi-weapon.

I think twin-linking plasma is pretty incredible, because it makes you practically immune to Gets Hot!. And alpha-striking with a combi-plasma does sound really sweet, and for only 6 points, too. However, this would mean losing an assault weapon (storm bolter) to get a rapid fire weapon (boltgun), so that's something that should be considered before making your choice.

Combi-Weapons are an interesting idea, particularly because I was just thinking about squeezing a Librarian (possibly armed with a combi-?????) into my Deathwing army. As I understand it, the Deathwing Terminator and Command Squads have the Split Fire USR and allow any one model in the unit (which I believe would include an attached HQ, correct me if I am wrong) to choose a different target if they pass a leadership test. This would allow a potentially devastating shot when combined with Vengeful Strike. A TL Meltagun shot or up to two TL Plasma gun shots at a prime target choice would be particularly effective and for only 6 points. As for changing from a Storm Bolter to a Bolter, I think it's a fair trade off for giving you a (twin-linked) potential game changing shot because all you would lose is one shot between 13"-24".

Actually working this model into a Deathwing army means taking two HQ choices however (obviously you would have to take Belial, or Azrael) and I'm not sure it would be worth it unless that second HQ brings more to the table than a combi-weapon given the limited model count that would be further reduced by bringing a second 100+ point HQ.

 Spartan089 wrote:


Its not great the way it is, but what you suggest make it broken. No one can field squadrons except for IG, it would make no sense. 125 is cheaper than the vendetta, maybe 150 but FAQs never change points cost.

DA can take Land Speeder squadrons. I think some Xenos can do squadrons too. That's far from IG exclusive.

Since the Neph is much worse than a Vendetta why shouldn't they cost less?

If I were to "fix" the Neph I'd give those missiles either blast or haywire. Blasts would make it anti infantry. Haywire would make it a great air superiority fighter.

Nivek5150 wrote:
You're right that Deathwing can't, but other terminators can, so his point is a very interesting idea. The "Terminator Weapons" section of the Armoury includes combi weapons, and the Lion's Roar chapter relic would fit the description as well, I'd say. In that regard, TDA Chaplains, librarians and company masters can all DS/DWA and get the benefit of vengeful strike with a combi-weapon.

I think twin-linking plasma is pretty incredible, because it makes you practically immune to Gets Hot!. And alpha-striking with a combi-plasma does sound really sweet, and for only 6 points, too. However, this would mean losing an assault weapon (storm bolter) to get a rapid fire weapon (boltgun), so that's something that should be considered before making your choice.

Actually I meant Terminator infantry

I was looking at the Termie weapon chart and it all got mushed in my brain when I wasn't looking at the book.

Altho, yeah, I would think a TDA IC would def be interesting with Combi-Plas. Lion's Roar is already Master crafted, though, so the bonus would be redundant : /

Are you sure you don't suffer gets hot when you reroll a 1 result? I thought you were stuck with the penalty >_<

PS, Rapid fire doesn't matter for TDA since they have relentless, they can assault after firing heavy or rapid fire weapons. So you could shoot Combi Plas and then assault immediately after.

Give the Nephilim the option to swap its missiles for Hurricane Bolters, and drop the points cost to 150. Problem solved.

Make the Dark Talon's main gun Large Blast and AP 5, and drop the points cost to 150. Again, problem solved.

As they are now though, they're still playable, just not optimal. Hopefully the books that follow DA will have flyers more akin to the Nephilim, and less like the Vendetta.

Good point on relentless, totally blanked on that. Same with Lion's Roar.

And yeah, BRB 37 "a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1". So I think twin-linking a plasma gun is your best use of the ability, especially since plasma is awesome.

I think less talk should be dedicated to fixing the DA fliers, and more time fixing the IG and necron fliers. They are the ones breaking the system more so than anything else.

 Leth wrote:
I think less talk should be dedicated to fixing the DA fliers, and more time fixing the IG and necron fliers. They are the ones breaking the system more so than anything else.

Agreed.

C'mon gents, don't make the Unforgiven look bad by whining about how bad our fliers are when we have two, Both of which I might add are actually pretty decent, Neph gets 7 S6 and 3 TL S5 Shots a turn with the Avenger, thats a whole lotta dakka, and the Dark Talon gets 6 TL bolter shots, not to mention it's rift cannon and stasis bomb are great force multipliers which can make a huge difference, Making the Swarmlord I3 and WS6 is just golden.

Also, the Sons of Russ and the Black Templars don't have fliers, do you see them complaining about how DA get them? We DA know how it feels to be abused by GW, so don't start getting prissy when we finally get not only an update, but a Good Update. We finally have some Uniqueness, so don't whine our unique stuff isn't cheesy. Personally, I hope that more of the new codices have fliers more like the DA ones, Good, but not unbelievably so.

That's my opinion at least, sorry if I have offended.