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Something occurred to me this weekend regarding the Neph, with the TLLC and the TLHB it has the exact same armament that a Land Raider can bring to bear on one target. Hell even the fluff for the Neph says the TLLC version is the air superiority and the mega bolter is ground support.

S6 missiles are air superiority because they're designed to shoot at other AV11 flyers.

Since several people in this thread don't like to read all the rules - if you make the Blackswords blast then they're not air to air missiles, nothing can fire template, blast, or large blast at flyers.

With all the new changes and new models all DA units are meant to be used within the codex as a whole. Your Neph shouldn't be worrying about a quad gun, if it's deployed well then hit it with termies and take it over. The amount of shenanigans we can get up to now are ridiculous. For 405 points you can field an attack unit of 3 Typhoons, 1 Darkshroud, and a LIbby on bike with Conversion field and Presience, now you have 6 TL missile shots per turn with cover saves abounding for vehicles and the Libby even has a somewhat decent stat line.

S6 missiles are not "air superiority" because they're not TL, they're only S6, and you can only shoot up to two of them a turn. Coupled with a heavy bolter, you bounce off of AV12 (which the big thing to be worried about is Vendettas and Heldrakes), and your performance against AV11 is paltry relative to the high per model price. On top of that, you're AV11, so how are you going to compete against 3 TL Lascannons on an AV12 Vendetta? You're not, particularly not when the Vendetta is much less expensive.

The alternate wargear option is low strength, which is really what the Nephilim Jet"fighter" is, close in air support. It's way overpriced, not enough armor, and low strength with too great of volume of fire to waste shooting it at fliers. If you're shooting a heavy bolter at an AV12 flier you're wasting the heavy bolter.

Just because the book says it's an "air superiority fighter" doesn't mean that it is. In fact, most people taking jabs at the Nephilim Jetfighter have pointed out how ironic that description is.

Again I point out, there are no other vehicles that the DA have access to that are better gunned. The only comparison you might be able to make is the Las Pred, then you've got a TLLC and one LC, maybe two if the target is far enough away.

So this puts the Neph at the top end of Space Marine vehicle shooting.

In what world is S6 "low strength"? Elsewhere in this thread you've sung the praises of the Assault Cannon for taking out armor. The numbers for a Assault Cannon to take out AV12+ is the exact same as the mega bolter shooting at any other flyer. Sooo which is it? Either the Assault Cannon isn't as good as you claim or the mega bolters not as bad as you're saying.

Comparing the Neph to the Vendetta is like comparing the Vindicator to a Leman Russ. The Russ should win that fight every time, it's got longer range and more guns.

Well, according to the News & Rumors section, on Feb. 16th we will see updates to existing fliers and the Templars will finally get access to a flyer.

I also agree with Leth. I don't think that our Fliers are underwhelming or overcost, I think (hope) that our rules represent the new standard for Flier costs. Let's face it, a Vendetta, for what it does currently, should cost somewhere in the neighborhood of a Land Raider.

As others have pointed out, Land Raider Crusader with dakka banner would have tons of anti-infantry firepower. Three TL Salvo 2/4 24" Bolters plus a TL Assault Cannon. But I digress, I never said that Neph had mediocre anti-infantry firepower, I said it was a close air support vehicle with the Mega Bolter. It's as an air superiority fighter that it fails.

S6 is high strength against infantry, and it's low strength against vehicles. You can only glance AV12, which there are plenty of effective and cheap AV12 flyers like the Heldrake and the Vendetta. The Vendetta comes with AV12 and 3 TL Lascannons, and here's the kicker - it's only a little over 2/3 the price of the Nephilim.

Would you like to find out how much better 3 TL Lascannons are against AV12 compared to a Megabolter? All right, let's find out: Link

1.125 Pens w/ Lascannon, .375 glances, also +1 to damage table modifier due to AP2. Ignore damage results, those are outdated due to mechanics changes for glances.

By contrast, Megabolter scores .556 glances on average. Blacksword Missiles score an extra .222 glances on average for a total score of .778 glances average.

In hull points that means 2.6 versus .778 hull points. Lascannons also score 1.125 damage table rolls with a +1 damage table modifier.

But it gets better because the Lascannons come on an AV12 platform for fewer points on the Vendetta - you're paying 50% more and you're only getting AV11. So let's recap -

A) Nephilim costs more points than the Vendetta
B) Nephilim has inferior armor to the Vendetta
C) Nephilim does less damage to AV12 fliers than the Vendetta.
and to rub salt in the wound, D) The Vendetta doubles as a transport. The Nephilim doesn't.

PS, I never said that the Assault Cannon was "good" against vehicles, and I think I've conclusively demonstrated that S6 sucks against AV12.

PS, I never said that the Assault Cannon was "good" against vehicles, and I think I've conclusively demonstrated that S6 sucks against AV12.

I actually do find the assault cannon is good against vehicles. I bring 7 of them in my standard ravenwing list, and I have yet to meet a vehicle I can't destroy. Non rending S6 weapons suck at anti tank though...

 TedNugent wrote:


A) Nephilim costs more points than the Vendetta
B) Nephilim has inferior armor to the Vendetta
C) Nephilim does less damage to AV12 fliers than the Vendetta.
and to rub salt in the wound, D) The Vendetta doubles as a transport. The Nephilim doesn't.

the same can be said about the VoidRaven.

Vendettas are OP, they should be nerfed. GW is lazy and wont do it, but comparing things to them is silly as they make anything else look bad.

Similarly GH are OP, they should be nerfed. Try compareing CSM:CSM or DA tacticals to GH and note how neither is anywhere near as good.

The fact that GH exist does not mean that CSM:CSM or DA tacticals are bad. The Nephilim might not be good, but talking about how the vendetta is better isn't going to solve anything. Of course the vendetta is better, the vendetta is better than any other flyer. The vendetta is better than any 2 other flyers. If all flyers were as good as a vendetta we should just remove the 6s to hit and call it balance.

Assault Cannons are interesting because, due to Rending, they never glance AV 12 they either penetrate (though don't forget they don't get the AP 2 against vehicles), or they do nothing.

 TedNugent wrote:
S6 missiles are not "air superiority" because they're not TL, they're only S6, and you can only shoot up to two of them a turn. Coupled with a heavy bolter, you bounce off of AV12 (which the big thing to be worried about is Vendettas and Heldrakes), and your performance against AV11 is paltry relative to the high per model price. On top of that, you're AV11, so how are you going to compete against 3 TL Lascannons on an AV12 Vendetta? You're not, particularly not when the Vendetta is much less expensive.

The alternate wargear option is low strength, which is really what the Nephilim Jet"fighter" is, close in air support. It's way overpriced, not enough armor, and low strength with too great of volume of fire to waste shooting it at fliers. If you're shooting a heavy bolter at an AV12 flier you're wasting the heavy bolter.

Just because the book says it's an "air superiority fighter" doesn't mean that it is. In fact, most people taking jabs at the Nephilim Jetfighter have pointed out how ironic that description is.

If they were to make the missiles have armorbane or something than it WOULD be an air-superiority fighter...

Oh please stop compairing other fliers to the Vendetta! The Vendetta is priced as a Skimmer! Not a Flyer! That's why it's so OP it's fething ridicoulus! I have no doubt that once it gets updated, they will simply add 80 points or MORE to the blasted thing.

Oh and I agree on the GH metafor.

 Gar'Ang wrote:
Oh please stop compairing other fliers to the Vendetta! The Vendetta is priced as a Skimmer! Not a Flyer! That's why it's so OP it's fething ridicoulus! I have no doubt that once it gets updated, they will simply add 80 points or MORE to the blasted thing.

Oh and I agree on the GH metafor.

Vendettas would be OTT with only 1 twinlinked lascannon, although they would be much closer to balanced.
Even as a skimmer, vendettas were OP.

Glad you like the GH thing, it's the truth.

I have actually had great luck running a normal SM libby on bike with null zone and avenger. I combine him with sammael, a command squad with the FNP banner and run them next to a unit of 6 black knights with the cover speeder and they wreck everything they touch. I then finish the list off with a unit of normal SM scouts and 3 units of 5 bikes with 2 plasma and 3 attack bikes with MMs. It has been kicking peoples teeth in. Null zone with plasma talons is just amazing.

Agreed 'dettas are OP for their cost, but I was comparing the Nephliam to the storm raven, for just 20 more points the raven is better all round, transport, 2 good weapons and 4 s8 ap1 missiles and transport. Maybe all this shows is GW are going to start increasing the cost of flyers?. I have two of the DA flyers, I didnt bother glue ing the weapons in as they slot in and out fine but am looking forward to using them on sunday.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

furbyballer wrote:
I have actually had great luck running a normal SM libby on bike with null zone and avenger. I combine him with sammael, a command squad with the FNP banner and run them next to a unit of 6 black knights with the cover speeder and they wreck everything they touch. I then finish the list off with a unit of normal SM scouts and 3 units of 5 bikes with 2 plasma and 3 attack bikes with MMs. It has been kicking peoples teeth in. Null zone with plasma talons is just amazing.

Used a squad of 3 black knights on the weekend, very impressed with them, used them as outflanking in two games and chewed up assault marines in rapid fire range then put the hurt on some termies, which were then finished off in style by Sammael, was worried his ap2 at strength wasnt going to do enough to kill the termies but wiped out 4 with 4 attacks, good rolling helped a little....

Being ap2 and rapid fire and twin linked is mean!. On another game I had them on the board, scouted 12 inches then moved 12 inches and popped a chimera for first blood then popped a sential while a RW squad turbo boosted then moved and melta'ed a leman russ while another RW squad with flamers torched some guard in ruins, 700 point game and opponent gave up on turn 2. The melta RW squad also survived a battlecannon round thanks to turbo boosting.

Really liking the RW playstyle, nice and fast and really different to normal marines, I used some terminators as well and DWA on turn 2 where ever the bikers were, and hit and run a few times in opponents turn,

 Gar'Ang wrote:
Oh please stop compairing other fliers to the Vendetta! The Vendetta is priced as a Skimmer! Not a Flyer! That's why it's so OP it's fething ridicoulus! I have no doubt that once it gets updated, they will simply add 80 points or MORE to the blasted thing.

Oh and I agree on the GH metafor.

So what's the excuse for the Stormraven? If they add points onto it, it will be unfieldable. I just think GW doesn't stop to think about points *at all*.

I think someone was just asleep at the wheel thinking the S6 Blacksword missles were "anti-air". Those things can't penetrate anything AV12 so someone probably castrated the stats at some point before print.

If they nerf bat the AV12 flyers there would be more problems. As it is, DA players are a small minority so releasing new expensive flyers with craptastic stats doesnt have much impact as a lot of people dont get how bad these things really are.

 Ministry wrote:
I think someone was just asleep at the wheel thinking the S6 Blacksword missles were "anti-air". Those things can't penetrate anything AV12 so someone probably castrated the stats at some point before print.

If they nerf bat the AV12 flyers there would be more problems. As it is, DA players are a small minority so releasing new expensive flyers with craptastic stats doesnt have much impact as a lot of people dont get how bad these things really are.

how many AV 12 flyers are there?
Vendetta, Storm Raven, Helturkey, Valkarie

How many AV 11 Flyers are there?
Void Raven, Storm Talon, Nephilim, Dark Talon, Doom Scythe, Night Scythe

How many AV 10 Flyers are there?
Razorwing, Dakkajet, Blitzbommer, Burnabommer

What other flyers are their? T5 and T6 FMC

So really, half the AV12 flyers are problems with the IG codex. The stormtalon and helturkey are supposed to be heavily armored flyers. Complaining that str6 doesnt hurt them is like complaining that your AT Krak Missile has trouble touching Land Raiders. Helturkey's and Storm Ravens cost nearly as much as a Landraider too.

Str6 is great against FMC, and the AV10 flyers. It is still pretty good against the AV11 flyers. It is not a misprint, it is a problem with Vendettas and Valkaries.

 Leth wrote:
I think less talk should be dedicated to fixing the DA fliers, and more time fixing the IG and necron fliers. They are the ones breaking the system more so than anything else.

I totally agree with this. Fliers shouldn't be exceptionally common, nor exceptionally powerful (unless at a high price). I can see a world where if all fliers were comparable to the Niph then fliers would just add a really cool aspect to the game, rather than add a required component. That sounds more fun to me (and a lot less annoying when playing Necrons).

It's just funny that against AV 12, you are much better off with ground based lacannons shooting at it than S6 skyfire.

I imagine S6 is fine against AV 11 fliers that have only 2 HP. That's not a crazy amount of shots to bring them down. S6 also wounds MCs just fine.

Vendetta and Valkyries............ yeah. They are ~70 pts cheaper than the other AV 12 fliers.

Any thoughts on Lion's Roar? Stupid? Waste of points? Would anyone complain if I used my DV model's combi-plas as a Lion's Roar?

 TedNugent wrote:
Any thoughts on Lion's Roar? Stupid? Waste of points? Would anyone complain if I used my DV model's combi-plas as a Lion's Roar?

I think any combiplas would work. The only reason I would take it would be for fluffy reasons I prefer the mace.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Any thoughts on Lion's Roar? Stupid? Waste of points? Would anyone complain if I used my DV model's combi-plas as a Lion's Roar?

I think any combiplas would work. The only reason I would take it would be for fluffy reasons I prefer the mace.

Can't you get both?

A combi-plasma cannon seems too cool to NOT include. Plus, a master-crafted bolter certainly isn't worthless, especially if you're running the Banner of Devastation. I'm certainly going to try to squeeze it into some lists.

 TedNugent wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Any thoughts on Lion's Roar? Stupid? Waste of points? Would anyone complain if I used my DV model's combi-plas as a Lion's Roar?

I think any combiplas would work. The only reason I would take it would be for fluffy reasons I prefer the mace.

Can't you get both?

One per army I believe.

It's one of each relic per army, not one relic per army.

So I can get both Lion's Roar and the Mace on the same model, yeah?

All it says is "replace one weapon," Company Master has 2 weapons, and it says "one of each relic per army," e.g. I can replace the Bolt Pistol with Lion's Roar and the Chainsword with the Mace.

Although I was actually thinking about just running the DV model as a Lion's Roar with the Sacred Blade, since the model is clearly carrying a Power Sword.

PS, I don't like the generic IC's in this dex. Except for the Librarian. Awesome points cost, good statline for what he is, and he gets a free Force Weapon and a Hood. Too legit, only problem is, I don't want to put him in a ranged tac squad, such a waste of WS5 and a Force weapon :(

Company Master, same problem, I can't necessarily justify putting him in a Tacticool squad with a Plasma Gun if all he's good at is assaulting. Wish I could put the SoB on a bike like SM codex can. This Codex needs a Captain.

Vendettas aren't op, they're what fliers should be. And they're a steal points wise. However I've found them to be less effective in 6th edition, they don't start on the board anymore (which was amazing if you went turn 1) and they are limited to what they fire at now with the new flyer rules having to move 18" minimum and only being able to make 90 degree turns. Hover mode is great but av 12 is a joke when you're not getting hit on only 6's coupled with hull points.

The neph fighter isn't the best flyer, no, and yes, it's terribly overpriced but then again ig can't take split firing turn 1 deep striking terminators in bulk either. It seems like its a balance issue honestly. I'd love an army with thss terminators as well as a few vendettas and a squad of paladins or purifiers but that would be broken.

 michaelcycle wrote:
Vendettas aren't op, they're what fliers should be. And they're a steal points wise. However I've found them to be less effective in 6th edition, they don't start on the board anymore (which was amazing if you went turn 1) and they are limited to what they fire at now with the new flyer rules having to move 18" minimum and only being able to make 90 degree turns. Hover mode is great but av 12 is a joke when you're not getting hit on only 6's coupled with hull points.

wut? I dont even know how to reply to this insanity.

 michaelcycle wrote:

The neph fighter isn't the best flyer, no, and yes, it's terribly overpriced but then again ig can't take split firing turn 1 deep striking terminators in bulk either. It seems like its a balance issue honestly. I'd love an army with thss terminators as well as a few vendettas and a squad of paladins or purifiers but that would be broken.

I do agree with this though. Dark Angels players should stop whining about their sub-par flyers. No one is meant to be great at everything. The rest of the codex is very solid.

TedNugent wrote:
A) Nephilim costs more points than the Vendetta
B) Nephilim has inferior armor to the Vendetta
C) Nephilim does less damage to AV12 fliers than the Vendetta.
and to rub salt in the wound, D) The Vendetta doubles as a transport. The Nephilim doesn't.

So... you're upset that the Nephilim isn't as good as the single most brokenly undercosted vehicle in all of 40k?

michaelcycle wrote:Vendettas aren't op, they're what fliers should be.

Well, at least your opinion is entirely unique. That's very difficult to accomplish in such a globally-connected world. The rest of the 40k players, however, will continue to consider the Vendetta to be unquestionably the most overpowered vehicle for its points cost in 40k at the moment. Maybe if it cost 75-100 points more, its power level would be about right.

PS, I don't like the generic IC's in this dex. Except for the Librarian. Awesome points cost, good statline for what he is, and he gets a free Force Weapon and a Hood. Too legit, only problem is, I don't want to put him in a ranged tac squad, such a waste of WS5 and a Force weapon :(

Company Master, same problem, I can't necessarily justify putting him in a Tacticool squad with a Plasma Gun if all he's good at is assaulting. Wish I could put the SoB on a bike like SM codex can. This Codex needs a Captain.

This is what I'm trying to figure out, too. Same reason I quite like not having to get a veteran sergeant on my power armor squads, though.

I thought I would read through this topic because I've had Dark Angels for some time and I've only just got round to getting back into them. Lovely, over priced £££, codex we have now! Muahaha.

However, I've noticed that a lot of this Topic has been Vendetta bashing... I mean really guys? Quit the focus on one unit c***. We have a butt tonne of units that'll make mince meat of everything else they have!

Break it down. Their basic troops are very weak, they pack a punch with plasma guns and heavy weapon teams. All of which are crap saves, crap toughness and BS3. Cry me a river. Their Elite choices are, hysterical at best. Ogryns? Major lol, they fall like dominos and return nothing. Rattlings, no AP, we have a basic 3+ roll on our Troops... madness? Lack of that lumber behmoth rule or whatever its called has rendered their ordnance tanks to one gun tanks. The only one that annoys me is the executioner tank, still, 190 for a tank is a heavy hit. HQ choices, re-rolls for reserves, re-rolls against our reserves and a basilisk round that scatters 3d6. Nothing to write home about. Their artillery is deadly, but they always bunch up and get flattened. So rough riders huh? Overwatch with storm bolters usually reduces their impact if they even make it there. Flamer tanks are pretty good I will say, but not impossible to kill.

And then we have their Flyers. Cheap AV12 front and Sides that carry troops and rain death. They have to use zoom because to hover would be their undoing, and zooming restricts them greatly, if they had vector dance I would be pissed, but no, they dont. So when they fly over you, they expose that one weakness they really suffer from, AV10 bums. Unleash the anal penetration and they fall out of the sky!

Stop your jibber-jabber about their flyers and feel for them elsewhere. Reduce them to tears when you take all the objectives when you deep strike your terminators and laugh at them when their troops shine their bright torches at you. You lose a tank or 2, hardly a game ender. 3 fire 3 lascannons at your troops, thats a maximum of 3 dead... Try a different tactic. Enter from behind them and pound that Av10 ass.

But thats the problem with most of the modern players. Nobody plays it the way it was intended and ruin the game for everyone else. Tournaments are a mockery of this great game. Why account for every single point? I feel bad collecting Marines sometimes, because we usually win and then have the b**** to moan about how it wasnt easy enough.


Back on topic. Loving the Dark Angels. The new units are some of the best looking in the game.


And before anyone mentions this is my first post, I have no idea what my other account was called.